Sadistic God?

[pam]

Perhaps a better word than threat would be admonition. Could be seen as the same thing but perhaps not quite so harsh sounding. But God did admonish people many many times and informed them of the harsh consequences of their actions. In fact He did take action in many of the cases. Call it or threat or an admonition...same thing as far as I'm concerned.

[Cassiopeia]

Cassi, for what it's worth, overall, one of the concerns we evangelicals have with LDS teaching is the seeming near-univeralism of it. If our understanding of hell is correct (that it's eternal, and far larger than LDS doctrine suggests), then we fear that what you say may offer false comfort.

You are focussing on the smallness and narrowness of hell, and it appears to me that those you are discussing with are mostly pointing out that yeah it's small, but it's still there. Different emphasis, perhaps--but at the end of the day, very similar teaching.

I understand and thank you for your respectful approach.

If I might offer some context? In my physical world which is in Utah, I see a lot of people using fear as their motivation for doing things and they are really really harsh with themselves and others. And in the long run, they end up rebelling because they weren't ever good enough. It's that sort of thing, well, I'm not sure how to explain it but you can cause people to despair as well to the point that they just give up trying at all.

Now, I think you and I and everyone else agrees that God is NOT Sadistic. He's just and merciful.

I grew up in South Dakota in a Catholic/Protestant mix. My mother was in charge of my religious teachings and she never dwelt on hell fire and damnation. Rather she focused on the mercy of Christ and then set out to teach her children how to serve and love their fellow man. I never heard her ever threaten anyone with damnation but spoke of her desire to do the Lord's will. There was no need for the discussion of hell as a consequence because she kept her eye single to the glory of God.

I guess in the end, it doesn't really matter what I think or you think. It matters what we do.

[Cassiopeia]

Perhaps a better word than threat would be admonition. Could be seen as the same thing but perhaps not quite so harsh sounding. But God did admonish people many many times and informed them of the harsh consequences of their actions. In fact He did take action in many of the cases. Call it or threat or an admonition...same thing as far as I'm concerned.

When I think of the word to admonish, I think of someone that's giving more of a warning...like...be careful, you don't want to do that because this...will happen.

Threatening is a far different thing. It's along the lines of...If you do that I'm going to punish you.

[pam]

When I think of the word to admonish, I think of someone that's giving more of a warning...like...be careful, you don't want to do that because this...will happen.

Threatening is a far different thing. It's along the lines of...If you do that I'm going to punish you.

To be honest, I really don't see the difference. In both cases, if you don't do what is said you will be punished. I just used the word admonition as a much softer way of saying it.

It's the same thing as me telling my kids..okay if you don't want to clean up your room, you won't get to go to the movies. Not going to the movies would be seen as a punishment. Could be an admonishment...but in reality it's a threat.

[Cassiopeia]

To be honest, I really don't see the difference. In both cases, if you don't do what is said you will be punished. I just used the word admonition as a much softer way of saying it.

It's the same thing as me telling my kids..okay if you don't want to clean up your room, you won't get to go to the movies. Not going to the movies would be seen as a punishment. Could be an admonishment...but in reality it's a threat.

It's all in the perception then.

[pam]

That I can agree with. I do believe it's all in perception. I understand your point of view, but I can also understand the points that others have made as well.

[Dr T]

I'd say it is all in what God is.

[Dravin]

I'd say it is all in what God is.

I'm afraid you'll need to elaborate on that Dr. T.

[prisonchaplain]

I understand and thank you for your respectful approach.

If I might offer some context? In my physical world which is in Utah, I see a lot of people using fear as their motivation for doing things and they are really really harsh with themselves and others. And in the long run, they end up rebelling because they weren't ever good enough. It's that sort of thing, well, I'm not sure how to explain it but you can cause people to despair as well to the point that they just give up trying at all.

This helps tremendously. You are reacting to a phenomenon common to those who practice their faith rigoriously--that of legalism. "A real Christian would not do THAT?" "How could a faithful LDS person possibly...." We used to get some of that on this board--in relation to voting!!! So, if your battle is against spiritual manipulation and perhaps the over-application of spiritual authority, then my guess is that most of us are with you.

IMHO, Hell is like spanking. Taught/used sparingly, like salt on meat, and it has a tremendous softening/tenderizing/purifying effect. Over-used, which is easy to do, and it makes the whole matter unsavory. In other words, it is part of the whole counsel of God, and it must needs be taught. However, such teachings ought to be cautious, prayerfully prepared, and very very humbly presented. Even the famous Puritan era sermon, "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God," was actually just a five minute portion out of a two-hour sermon. The minister, Jonathan Edwards, actually seldom spoke on the subject of hell. And yet, this segment led to a tremendous outcry, and many people either repented of sins, or even converted, as a result.

Now, I think you and I and everyone else agrees that God is NOT Sadistic. He's just and merciful.

Sure. But, in my own case, I do reconcile that belief with my understanding of the Bible teaching that there is an eternal hellfire, and that too many people will go there. My faith is different from most on this matter--at this site. Since my Scripture teaches all of those positives you mention, but also the difficult doctrine of hell, all I can do is share the whole description. I wouldn't use it to conjur up extra giving, or extra help in the church. Rather, like Jesus did, just simply as a warning--be ready for God, today.

grew up in South Dakota in a Catholic/Protestant mix. My mother was in charge of my religious teachings and she never dwelt on hell fire and damnation. Rather she focused on the mercy of Christ and then set out to teach her children how to serve and love their fellow man. I never heard her ever threaten anyone with damnation but spoke of her desire to do the Lord's will. There was no need for the discussion of hell as a consequence because she kept her eye single to the glory of God.

I guess in the end, it doesn't really matter what I think or you think. It matters what we do.

I've often said you don't have to believe in hell to go to heaven. IMHO, it exists. And, some people will respond to their fear of it, to move towards God. If they are sincere, they will learn the love.

Faith is balance. Even the Resurrection must include some discussion of the Garden and the Crucifixion, if we're to get eh full impact. But, I surely do appreciate your heart to open people to God's love, rather than try to scare them into spiritual submission. Spiritual abuse is a real phenomenon--a stain to Christians everywhere.

[Cassiopeia]

This helps tremendously. You are reacting to a phenomenon common to those who practice their faith rigoriously--that of legalism. "A real Christian would not do THAT?" "How could a faithful LDS person possibly...." We used to get some of that on this board--in relation to voting!!! So, if your battle is against spiritual manipulation and perhaps the over-application of spiritual authority, then my guess is that most of us are with you.

IMHO, Hell is like spanking. Taught/used sparingly, like salt on meat, and it has a tremendous softening/tenderizing/purifying effect. Over-used, which is easy to do, and it makes the whole matter unsavory. In other words, it is part of the whole counsel of God, and it must needs be taught. However, such teachings ought to be cautious, prayerfully prepared, and very very humbly presented. Even the famous Puritan era sermon, "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God," was actually just a five minute portion out of a two-hour sermon. The minister, Jonathan Edwards, actually seldom spoke on the subject of hell. And yet, this segment led to a tremendous outcry, and many people either repented of sins, or even converted, as a result.

Sure. But, in my own case, I do reconcile that belief with my understanding of the Bible teaching that there is an eternal hellfire, and that too many people will go there. My faith is different from most on this matter--at this site. Since my Scripture teaches all of those positives you mention, but also the difficult doctrine of hell, all I can do is share the whole description. I wouldn't use it to conjur up extra giving, or extra help in the church. Rather, like Jesus did, just simply as a warning--be ready for God, today.

I've often said you don't have to believe in hell to go to heaven. IMHO, it exists. And, some people will respond to their fear of it, to move towards God. If they are sincere, they will learn the love.

Faith is balance. Even the Resurrection must include some discussion of the Garden and the Crucifixion, if we're to get eh full impact. But, I surely do appreciate your heart to open people to God's love, rather than try to scare them into spiritual submission. Spiritual abuse is a real phenomenon--a stain to Christians everywhere.

I think we understand each other, Pastor. Thank you for your most eloquent response. We are in agreement on all points.

[Dr T]

Hi Dravin,

I'm sorry about my last post. At the end of Cass's post above mine it said,

I guess in the end, it doesn't really matter what I think or you think. It matters what we do.

when talking about God's reaction to us and all that has gone into this thread. The main thing for me is to focus on "what God IS" vs. what we do. God is perfect and holy and therefore cannot be in error and sadistic or any other negative term imo. God is above reproach, period.

[Cassiopeia]

Hi Dravin,

I'm sorry about my last post. At the end of Cass's post above mine it said, when talking about God's reaction to us and all that has gone into this thread. The main thing for me is to focus on "what God IS" vs. what we do. God is perfect and holy and therefore cannot be in error and sadistic or any other negative term imo. God is above reproach, period.

Yes, I agree.

[Dravin]

Hi Dravin,

I'm sorry about my last post. At the end of Cass's post above mine it said, when talking about God's reaction to us and all that has gone into this thread. The main thing for me is to focus on "what God IS" vs. what we do. God is perfect and holy and therefore cannot be in error and sadistic or any other negative term imo. God is above reproach, period.

Ah okay. I have a different number of posts per page, so your post came at a page break. I agree, I have faith that God is not sadistic. If I view him as such it is a failure on my part to understand him correctly rather then a failure of him to live up to my expectations.