Christian Contributions: Good Bad Ugly

[prisonchaplain]

You may want to reference the following article:

http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/religio...p-4883937c.html

Feel free to post your reasons.

[Justlooking]

Christianity is wonderful... its churchianity that is bad

[Josie]

The belief in God, the Eternal Father, and his son, Jesus Christ has been a huge influence upon the history of this planet from its creation to present. It has conquered countries, created countries, killed, saved, taught, blessed, comforted, damned, educated, fed, doomed, and the list could go on forever... People have and continue to do all sorts of things in the name of God or in despite of his name. Belief in or lack of belief in God and Jesus Christ is responsible for almost every major event in our world.

[Winnie G]

Christianity has killed more in the name of God then any other belief, history has proven that.

thats why I said bad

[prisonchaplain]

Originally posted by Winnie G@Dec 17 2005, 11:56 PM

Christianity has killed more in the name of God then any other belief, history has proven that.

thats why I said bad

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Two comments: 1. Communism, with its religion of atheism (or radical humanism) has killed more people than those who used the name of Jesus for their own power games. If you add Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Kim Il Sung/Kim Jong Il, you probably exceed 100 million. Adolf Hitler's racial nationalism killed another twelve million. Yes, people have done horrific things in the name of Jesus, but if death-count is your standard, then we're not #1.

2. The Tacoma News-Tribune is a secular publication in a city that is perhaps 30% Christian (compared with roughly 85% nationwide). I hardly think this was a fluff piece, meant to appease an audience.

[sgallan]

Christianity is a mixed bag in my view. But I can't help but notice the particular Christian nation I live in seems more violent, with more crime and 'stuff' then many where people are less religious. So I don't consider it a panacea either....

[Fiannan]

Mongol conquests -- 40 million dead. Was this religiously motivated?

Also, please try to back up the claim that Christianity has been the force for killing more people than any other religion.

How many have died at the hands of atheism?

How many have died at the hands of Islam?

[glindakc]

i said neuteral becuase i think god had this all planned out for us - because spiritualism is very personal, there is a lot of struggle within, and i think that's where heavenly father wanted to put trial upon us - we personally want to look for what's right for us, whether it's power or love or spirituality or whatever! (there is a correct answer lol)

because it's so personal, people feel very strongly about their beliefs and that is what brings the wars in. there's that struggle again. although it is denomination against denomination, it is ultimately struggle among individuals.

christianity, however, has brought a lot of good things with it. we have a lot of righteous people, looking for the truth and seeking it as hard as they can. the lds church has brought an enormous amount of good to the world, and so has catholicism and everything.

ultimately, i think heavenly father planned for everything to be this way, and i know he wouldn't let us or the world down. we just have to trust him and make sure that we personally are on a good level with him, enduring to the end, and everything will be okay.

[Winnie G]

The Vatican’s history floats on a sea of blood and from there it fanned out to touch every corner of the world. Now days it is different its done by politacle means.

Poverty

10 million Jews were murdered by the hands of Christians. The Vatican turned in enough of them.

The first member of my family ever to come to North American fled with the Pilgrims looking for religious freedom one of his counter parts was put to death by Disembowelment, hanging and finally burned at the stake. The third of the three was Martin Luther. That was not that fair back. These three men rist life its self to trasalt the bible from Latin. We owe them much.

Think about it, if you go back in to history Christian minded leaders were forever killing and persecuting in the name of God. Even those that murder Joseph Smith and other saints thought they were right minded Christian’s.

Communism and other Mongols are not a religion so do not fall in to that posted question.

[prisonchaplain]

Originally posted by Winnie G@Dec 18 2005, 07:53 PM

10 million Jews were murdered by the hands of Christians. The Vatican turned in enough of them.

I assume you are referring to the holocaust. If so, I strongly object to this accusation! First, the # of Jews killed was six million, I believe--horrific, for sure. Secondly, the Nazi system was based on a combination of nationalism, racism, and ancient German pagan rites. Hitler was anti-Christian. Yes, a good number of those who did the actual killing were Christians. But, to say that Christianity produced or encouraged the holocaust is outrageous.

Think about it, if you go back in to history Christian minded leaders were forever killing and persecuting in the name of God. Even those that murder Joseph Smith and other saints thought they were right minded Christian’s.

I would argue that religion in most of these cases was a tool of wicked men, not the source of the wickedness.

Communism and other Mongols are not a religion so do not fall in to that posted question.

The official religion of Communism is atheism. Atheism is a faith system, because one cannot scientifically prove the absence of God. Furthermore, it carried out a systematic and violent campaign against people of "other faiths." So, it should count as a religious aggressor, and would win first prize, easily.

[sgallan]

The official religion of Communism is atheism. Atheism is a faith system, because one cannot scientifically prove the absence of God.

True, but you can't officially disprove the Dragon living under my house nor the Flying Spaghetti Monster either.

[glindakc]

is atheism christian? what exactly are their movements of celebrating jesus christ?

[BenRaines]

I didn't vote because I am not sure it is black and white. I think a lot of good has been done in the name of Christianity and lots of bad has been done in the name of Christianity. Those trying to live a christ-like life have done much good.

Some claiming to be Christian and subjugating others by the sword, by terror and my murder do not represent Christianity in action.

I agree that Hitler was not a Christian man and the death of six million jews cannot be attributed to a Christian act.

Outright slaughter by non Christian and pre-Christian peoples were great.

[pushka]

I voted neutral for much the same reason that Ben didn't vote at all.

When people follow the teachings of Jesus and do good, fine, however others follow the teachings of, for instance, Buddha, and do good works, they are not Christian but are still good. Atheists (those who do not believe in the existence of god, Glindakc) do good too, they just do not attribute their good works to the fact that they are Christians or any other religion. Other religious groups, Islam, Hindus etc. also do good works.

Conversly, there are people in all of the groups above who do bad works, and as Ben pointed out, and others too, some of these people try to pass off their bad actions as being in the name of their particular religion.

My conclusion, therefore, is that Christianity, other types of religion and Atheism are no better nor worse than each other...

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

We don't really have a body count for a 2000 year old religion...Christians might not have killed as many people as Communists, Mongols or Nazis...on the other hand, if you add up the death toll of their wars, persecutions, conquests, and take into account the Dark Ages (caused by Christianity), they may have indirectly caused as many deaths as those other systems, if not more.

Regardless if they are #1 or not...they are still probably in the top 10, which is bad enough. So I can see why some people would vote "bad".

But I voted neutral for the same reason as the last two people...alot of good WAS done.

The original question was not if Christians were the worst on the list...only if their history was generally good or bad.

Communism, with its religion of atheism (or radical humanism) has killed more people than those who used the name of Jesus for their own power games.

You mean communist nations, right?

The ideology of communism is not really in conflict with religion...and one could say that Jesus preferred a form of communist living. Even the LDS practiced something close to communism in the early years. It could be argued that the LDS were the only successful communist experiment in history. Maybe communism works well in small populations, but no one has found a successful way to make it work in larger populations? Maybe communism NEEDS religion (or a strong moral code) to make it work well?

I think that Totalitarianism is more to blame for the deaths than Communism, when referring to Stalin, Mao, etc. ... which would explain why they have so much in common with Hitler, who was not Communist.

On the other hand, the poverty in Russia and China could make that FORM of Communism responsible in part.

[sgallan]

My conclusion, therefore, is that Christianity, other types of religion and Atheism are no better nor worse than each other...

Yeah, people are just people. I voted neutral as well.

[Winnie G]

Hafe of my family are holocaust survivors so let us not argue about numbers.

I am a LDS member because I chose to belong to the true church of God not the pale water downed pagan, idol worshiping, Christians who clime they speck for God in Prada shoes wile poverty and political unrest and death fallows them in there wake.

[Justlooking]

k, we need to redefine what is what.

CHURCHianity kills, because it isnt about obeying GOD, its about playing church.

CHRISTianity is doing what JESUS tells us to do. JESUS never told us to kill or harm others, but to love.

[Winnie G]

Justlooking

Your right there!

I think we were off the real topic, Christianity is not a church.

thank you

I find churches have little to do with Christianity that is the act of heavenly Fathers commandments acting with Christ’s love.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Winnie G@Dec 17 2005, 11:56 PM

Christianity has killed more in the name of God then any other belief, history has proven that.

thats why I said bad

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While many bad things have been done in the name of Christ, those who did those bad things were certainly not Christians, so please keep that in mind when you think about the true meaning of Christ and Christians and Christianity.

[Fiannan]

Again, proof that Christianity has been responsible for more death than Islam, atheism or whatever the Mongols believed in.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Fiannan@Dec 20 2005, 01:33 PM

Again, proof that Christianity has been responsible for more death than Islam, atheism or whatever the Mongols believed in.

←

How do you define "Christianity"???

[Fiannan]

Valid point. To a leftist, humanist I suppose one could say that the atomic bomb was a Jewish creation and so the bombings of Japan were Jewish. That's extreme but people who attack Christianity seem to use this sort of reasoning when they say that every war, every act of violence, from a Christian or Christian nation is caused by Christianity.

Personally, I would say that if a philosophy promotes conquest or killings of people based on their religion then Islam could easily surpass Christianity in that arena. But without a doubt communism teaches antagonism against those who believe in God or at least oppose the state so all the casualties at least within Russia's own population inflicted by the government IS the result of atheism -- same with all other communist regimes.

Hitler was the ultimate Darwinian (with a mix of new age and German nationalism) so his casualties also can be laid at the alter of Godless thought.

[prisonchaplain]

The original question was not if Christians were the worst on the list...only if their history was generally good or bad.

All three answers could be defended, depending on how one interpreted the question, and how one understood an overall Good, Nuetral, and Bad rating. I've seen good commentary here, and thank all the posters for their thoughtful expressions.

Communism, with its religion of atheism (or radical humanism) has killed more people than those who used the name of Jesus for their own power games.

You mean communist nations, right?

Or communist people. Christianity never killed anyone either, but Christians have.

The ideology of communism is not really in conflict with religion...and one could say that Jesus preferred a form of communist living.  Even the LDS practiced something close to communism in the early years.  It could be argued that the LDS were the only successful communist experiment in history.  Maybe communism works well in small populations, but no one has found a successful way to make it work in larger populations?  Maybe communism NEEDS religion (or a strong moral code) to make it work well?

I think that Totalitarianism is more to blame for the deaths than Communism, when referring to Stalin, Mao, etc. ... which would explain why they have so much in common with Hitler, who was not Communist.

I dare say your version of communism seems to be little more than sharing. Communist ideology on a governmental level, as espoused by Marx-Lenin, included the "dictatorship of the proletariat." Of course the dictatorships never vanished as the need for them dissolved, because Lord Action was right: Absolute power does corrupt absolutely.

[prisonchaplain]

Originally posted by Winnie G@Dec 19 2005, 11:29 PM

I am a LDS member because I chose to belong to the true church of God not the pale water downed pagan, idol worshiping,

Okay. Tell us how you really feel.

You decry the yahoos who go to SLC with anti-Mormon sloganeering, accusing them of hate speech, and then come out with this? Fortunately, your church doesn't broadcast this tone. I'm plowing through a book called Mormonism and Evangelicalism: How Wide the Divide? I highly recommend it, if for nothing else, than a lesson in how intelligent people can express heartfelt convictions and disagreements with each other, and leave the conversation as friends.

As to the accusations: 1. Christians are pale watered down (compared with the LDS, I suppose). Well, since the LDS came afterwards, I don't see how Christians are watered down. I would argue, instead, that our theologies are different. How different is the topic of many of these strings.

2. Christians are pagan. Well, if you buy into the Jehovah's Witnesses arguments about flag-saluting, so-called, observance of Christmas/Easter (which LDS do), etc. then join that obscure tact. If you have serious theological issues, they might be appropriate for a doctrinal string.

3. Christians are idol-worshiping. Do you refer to Catholic statues, Orthodox icons, or the cross? The first two are not really my area of expertise, though Catholics will be quick to tell you they do not worship the saints or their statues. For them, the statues are akin to pictures of Jesus you may have in your home. As for crosses, no Christians worships the cross symbol. The cross reminds us of Jesus' sacrifice for our sins. It is not the image of a person or a creature. It is the somber image of the instrument of Jesus' death--and a reminder that we, as sinners, were responsible--that we were the true instruments of his death.

...Christians who clime they speck for God in Prada shoes wile poverty and political unrest and death fallows them in there wake.

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So Republicans, and western Christians (come on, if you are middle class, you easily make the top-10% in terms of world income levels) cannot truly speak for God? Or do you have a limit? If you make less than $50K per year are you okay? $60K? Does it matter whether you live in Mississippi or NYC (cost of living differences)?

Besides, this last argument applies equally to Mormons, Christians, and people of many faiths. This is more of an anti-Western argument, than anything else. But, while we're wallowing in our middle class guilt about the poor of the world, they are working like crazy to become like us.