The Christmas Myth

[Traveler]

As a boy I began to realize the discrepancy between the story of Christmas told as a tradition of Christianity and the story given in scripture. Some may say that the core story remains and that the changes and differences are not relevant to the basic concepts. Perhaps but why can’t the story be told and our celebration and traditions be based on the scriptures and historical evidence? Why have the oral traditions of orthodox Christianity felt the need to embellish and exaggerate what G-d has told us?

There is no indication in scripture how Mary traveled to Bethlehem. Why is she depicted riding on a donkey? There is no conversation with an Inn keeper. There was never an offer of a stable or barn. The scriptures do not say that Jesus was born in a stable. There is nothing in the scriptures to indicate that there were animals present at the birth or that after the birth Jesus was living and sleeping among animals. The scriptures do not tell us how long Joseph and Mary were in Bethlehem before Jesus was born. Why are we lead to believe that Joseph and Mary just get to Bethlehem, Joseph ask for help from the Inn keeper, is offered a stable (all in one day) and that night Jesus is born?

From historical facts and from early writings of Christians much closer to the time and culture we can get a very different picture of what may have happened. But the most troubling part of the birth of Jesus that has been changed by the traditional and orthodox Christians over time, is the day and season for celebrating the birth of Christ. Not only the season but most of the tradition of Christmas can be butter understood from a pagan view point than a Christian one. Of course there are excuses and apologists that bend our current traditions to try to make them conform to Christian thinking but these traditions (Christmas trees, presents for good children) were preceded in the season by the pagans and there is no mention in scripture to adopt such traditions.

There are some Christian movement that refuse to adopt the pagan traditions of Christmas but we think of them as crack-pots, extremist, cults and outside the mainstream of Christianity.

My point is not to put everybody straight or to indicate that Christmas must be changed or any such thing. My point is to demonstrate that in 2000 years that the Orthodox and Traditional Christians have strayed, both in spirit and in historical and scriptural facts concerning the sacred events and traditions of the birth of Jesus the Christ. The traditions of the Christmas season demonstrates the paganization of Orthodox and Traditional Christianity even to the point that just about every Christian alive to day - wonders if it has not all gone too far. With the example of Christmas how could anyone trust the Orthodox and Traditional Christians to keep and preserve any sacred tradition, doctrine, ordinance or interpretation of scripture?

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Traveler says: There are some Christian movement that refuse to adopt the pagan traditions of Christmas but we think of them as crack-pots, extremist, cults and outside the mainstream of Christianity.

You mean like when I wondered aloud if it was wrong to "lie" about Santa Claus to my children?

My point is not to put everybody straight or to indicate that Christmas must be changed or any such thing. My point is to demonstrate that in 2000 years that the Orthodox and Traditional Christians have strayed, both in spirit and in historical and scriptural facts concerning the sacred events and traditions of the birth of Jesus the Christ. The traditions of the Christmas season demonstrates the paganization of Orthodox and Traditional Christianity even to the point that just about every Christian alive to day - wonders if it has not all gone too far. With the example of Christmas how could anyone trust the Orthodox and Traditional Christians to keep and preserve any sacred tradition, doctrine, ordinance or interpretation of scripture?

I would reverse your claim: Current Christmas practice does not represent a paganization of the truths of the first advent, but rather a Christianization of a former pagan holiday--Winter Soltice I believe. Almost overnight, Christianity went from being a persecuted sect, to the official church of the Empire. Leaders were charged with teaching an influx of mostly illiterate and pagan "believers" the truths of the church. So, they took what the people knew and "baptized" the practices with Christian meanings.

Most of the "changes and additions" Traveler speaks of are innocuous. Who cares whether Mary rode a donkey, whether there really were animals in the manger area or not (yeah...we think it was a cave, not a barn). Perhaps these complaints are similar to non-LDS throwing a fit over the word "Adieu" in the BOM?

[Justlooking]

All one can do is go by what the bible says and forget all the other add on that people do.

[Josie]

I would think that Joseph would have wanted to protect and care for Mary as much as possible and a donkey is one of the modes of transpertation used at that time. I am sure many things are assumptions on our part. Luke does say there was no room at the inn and it does say that Mary wrapped the baby in swadling clothes and laid him in a manger. A manger was used for feeding and animals and I imagine they were usually found in a stable. Luke probably gives us more information about that than any of the 4 gospels.

To me, it is not really important how the process took place, if that is a correct way of putting it, what is important is the knowledge that he did come, He did set an example for us, He did atone for us, and after giving his life, He was resurrected, giving all of us hope for a better life when we leave this earth. That is what is important.

[roman]

Originally posted by Traveler@Dec 17 2005, 03:32 PM

As a boy I began to realize the discrepancy between the story of Christmas told as a tradition of Christianity and the story given in scripture.  Some may say that the core story remains and that the changes and differences are not relevant to the basic concepts.  Perhaps but why can’t the story be told and our celebration and traditions be based on the scriptures and historical evidence?  Why have the oral traditions of orthodox Christianity felt the need to embellish and exaggerate what G-d has told us?

There is no indication in scripture how Mary traveled to Bethlehem.  Why is she depicted riding on a donkey?  There is no conversation with an Inn keeper.  There was never an offer of a stable or barn.  The scriptures do not say that Jesus was born in a stable.  There is nothing in the scriptures to indicate that there were animals present at the birth or that after the birth Jesus was living and sleeping among animals. The scriptures do not tell us how long Joseph and Mary were in Bethlehem before Jesus was born.  Why are we lead to believe that Joseph and Mary just get to Bethlehem, Joseph ask for help from the Inn keeper, is offered a stable (all in one day) and that night Jesus is born?

From historical facts and from early writings of Christians much closer to the time and culture we can get a very different picture of what may have happened.  But the most troubling part of the birth of Jesus that has been changed by the traditional and orthodox Christians over time, is the day and season for celebrating the birth of Christ.  Not only the season but most of the tradition of Christmas can be butter understood from a pagan view point than a Christian one.  Of course there are excuses and apologists that bend our current traditions to try to make them conform to Christian thinking but these traditions (Christmas trees, presents for good children) were preceded in the season by the pagans and there is no mention in scripture to adopt such traditions.

There are some Christian movement that refuse to adopt the pagan traditions of Christmas but we think of them as crack-pots, extremist, cults and outside the mainstream of Christianity.

My point is not to put everybody straight or to indicate that Christmas must be changed or any such thing.  My point is to demonstrate that in 2000 years that the Orthodox and Traditional Christians have strayed, both in spirit and in historical and scriptural facts concerning the sacred events and traditions of the birth of Jesus the Christ.  The traditions of the Christmas season demonstrates the paganization of Orthodox and Traditional Christianity even to the point that just about every Christian alive to day - wonders if it has not all gone too far.  With the example of Christmas how could anyone trust the Orthodox and Traditional Christians to keep and preserve any sacred tradition, doctrine, ordinance or interpretation of scripture?

The Traveler

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And yet its perfectly okay, for lds to believe that Jesus was born in Jerusalem and not Bethlehem--that the Garden of Eden was in America---not the Middle East. That Jesus was father by The Father and not the Holy Spirit. etc. etc. etc.

Traveler it seems to me that you should worry about your own house which is famous for changing the meaning and application of doctrine and how the lds church has turned every single Christian doctrine on its head

[Snow]

Originally posted by roman@Dec 18 2005, 03:55 AM

And yet its perfectly okay, for lds to believe that Jesus was born in Jerusalem and not Bethlehem--

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It certainly will never be said that Roman ever had the slightest clue about LDS beliefs but what's this new state of confusion about?

Note: I already know what your mistaken about but obviously you don't.

2nd note: There is no historical evidence that there was a census taken in Bethlehem at that time. Some think he was called Jesus of Nazareth for a reason.

[Guest bizabra]

JOSIE SAYS: Luke does say there was no room at the inn and it does say that Mary wrapped the baby in swadling clothes and laid him in a manger.

BIZ: For much of human history, given the shortage of building materials and labor, and the lack of central heating, as well as a profound lack of understanding about basic hygiene and it's relationship to health, people have lived in close contact with their animals and more times than not, were ALL living in the same space, with simply a gate or a fence/short wall between the goats, sheep, cattle, chickens, and the humans. Animals give off a lot of body heat, and so does rotting manure. Makes a LOT of sense (in a primitive way) to live in the same small room. So a manger would be right at hand, no stable is needed or likely.

A "stable" then, would not be a separate building away from the home or inn. It would be attached or actually part of the living quarters. People would be well used to sleeping and living "in the barn" so to speak (as if THEY also were animals, hmmm. . . .) so it is not hard to imagine why a manger was handy.

It might actually be BETTER to sleep in the hay next to a warm cow than to sleep in the same bed with 5 other fellow travelers, as was common right up until a few centuries ago in the "civilized world".

[roman]

2nd note: There is no historical evidence

so this is the way you determine truth----so Luke under the inspiration of the holy Spirit was lying in chapter 2.

snow, you are a person of convenience. You like the Bible when it agrees with you and toss it on a dung heap when it doesn't. if this is your standard--and it is because you use it to defend your defenseless position---then apply it to the BoM and see how far you get.

Some of us take the scriptures as true even in the lack of other evidence---we call it Gods word and trust him not to lie to us or lead us astray from the truth----you obviously need external historical evidences for all things to be established ----doing away with faith----and you want to tell me I wrong

The Bible says they were taxed and were headed that way----you don't believe that---sorry can't help you on that

[glindakc]

it does not say directly that there was conversation between mary/joseph and the inn-keepers. it does say, however, that there was no room in the inn, and i think mary and joseph were so desperate that they wouldn't go by rumor and instead they would ask the inn-keeper directly.

also, you're correct that there is no talk about permission to enter into the stable. maybe they had permission, maybe they didn't. the bible doesn't go into much detail about these things. however, mary and joseph were (again) desperate enough that they reserved to the option of delivering jesus there. it would work, and wouldn't do any harm to the animals or to the keeper, and whatever was defaced (bloody hay and such) i'm sure they paid back for that. they were righteous people. and, because it was made known that baby jesus would be the savior and king, he was treated that way, along with mary and joseph. that is how i assume the situation to have been.

[Traveler]

Sorry to take so long to respond. Let me begin with 1Kings 18: 18-21. I will summarize this for you all. The G-d of Israel, Jehovah, is a little steamed with the Israelites because they are mixing the worship of Baal with their worship of Jehovah. In verse 21 Elijah ask the question, “How long halt ye between two opinions?” He is talking about the people of Israel including the worship of Baal in their faith. He is talking about the paganization of Israel or for the sake of argument the Israelization of the pagan worshipers of Baal.

Why is this a problem? Israel still believed in Jehovah they were just mixing in a little of the religion of Baal – I think they found this fun and harmless. Is it not possible to still love G-d and mix in a little of Baal?

What was going on here with ancient Israel and Elijah? Does any of this apply at all to our day? Israel had the scriptures and living prophets – why were they mixing up stuff with Baal? Who is Baal and what was meant by the words, “Halt ye between two opinions.” To understand the worship of Baal you need to understand a couple of things. First is that the legend of Baal goes back in ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia (Tower of Babel time frame) and involves the “Sun” G-d Ra in Egypt and El in Mesopotamia. There are three seasons of times important to Baal, the fall equinox, the winter solstice and the spring equinox.

Baal is the son of the Sun g-d. He was considered a g-d even though his mother was human. She was a special human, a virgin. Baal was borne of the most powerful g-d as a father and a virgin human mother. When Baal was borne there were many marvelous signs in the stars in the heavens along with some other miracles. One of the miracles involved another g-d called Mot. Mot is a rival of the Sun g-d and father of Baal and was going to take Baal as soon as he was borne. Baal’s virgin mother is forced out into nature and when Baal is borne a tree provides shelter (this tree later plays an important role with Baal) and some oxen and sheep protect Baal and his mother from Mot. Baal was borne among oxen and sheep. The time of Baal’s birth and the celebration of this event were at the winter solstice.

As the myth and fable of Baal goes, Baal has a great love of humans and considers himself human even though he is a g-d. In the mean time Mot (g-d of the dead – underworld) forms an alliance with Yaman (g-d over oceans and water) and with their hosts of demons and stuff declare war on mankind and Baal. Baal is given power over weather (mostly thunder and lighting) and is a formidable opponent for Mot and Yaman but Baal is betrayed by a close allay and friend. Mot and Yaman capture and crucify Baal by hanging him on the same tree that protected his mother. Baal’s death for mankind is remembered by his worshipers at the fall equinox. When Baal dies his consort gets his body and cares and prays for him through a long night that last till the spring equinox when Baal is resurrected completely immortal and defeats Mot and Yaman and frees man forever from their enslavement to Mot at death.

BTW the celebration of Baal’s resurrection by his worshipers, the English translation of this celebration is called “Easter”. Some say that the traditional and Orthodox Christians have not been paganized but that the pagan worship has been Christianized. Ether way it looks like a,“Halt between two opinions” to me.

I suggest that as you gather your family and friends around this Christmas that you go out of your way to make sure everyone understands the story as given in scripture and be clear to point out what has been added by the Traditional and Orthodox Christians as a myth and fable (including the December 25 thing). But you can do what ever you like. Personally I am not that inspired by the myth and fable stuff, especially in light of the worship of the pagan g-d Baal. I am inspired by the scriptures.

And to my LDS friends – when certain traditional and Orthodox Christians make a big deal about Mormons worshiping a different Jesus. Well, that is probably a really good thing that you should treasure.

The Traveler

[Guest sugarbay]

Originally posted by Traveler@Dec 21 2005, 08:17 AM

Sorry to take so long to respond.  Let me begin with 1Kings 18: 18-21.  I will summarize this for you all.  The G-d of Israel, Jehovah, is a little steamed with the Israelites because they are mixing the worship of Baal with their worship of Jehovah.  In verse 21 Elijah ask the question, “How long halt ye between two opinions?”  He is talking about the people of Israel including the worship of Baal in their faith.  He is talking about the paganization of Israel or for the sake of argument the Israelization of the pagan worshipers of Baal.

Why is this a problem?  Israel still believed in Jehovah they were just mixing in a little of the religion of Baal – I think they found this fun and harmless.  Is it not possible to still love G-d and mix in a little of Baal?

What was going on here with ancient Israel and Elijah?  Does any of this apply at all to our day?  Israel had the scriptures and living prophets – why were they mixing up stuff with Baal?  Who is Baal and what was meant by the words, “Halt ye between two opinions.”  To understand the worship of Baal you need to understand a couple of things.  First is that the legend of Baal goes back in ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia (Tower of Babel time frame) and involves the “Sun” G-d Ra in Egypt and El in Mesopotamia.  There are three seasons of times important to Baal, the fall equinox, the winter solstice and the spring equinox. 

Baal is the son of the Sun g-d.  He was considered a g-d even though his mother was human.  She was a special human, a virgin.  Baal was borne of the most powerful g-d as a father and a virgin human mother.  When Baal was borne there were many marvelous signs in the stars in the heavens along with some other miracles.  One of the miracles involved another g-d called Mot.  Mot is a rival of the Sun g-d and father of Baal and was going to take Baal as soon as he was borne.  Baal’s virgin mother is forced out into nature and when Baal is borne a tree provides shelter (this tree later plays an important role with Baal) and some oxen and sheep protect Baal and his mother from Mot.  Baal was borne among oxen and sheep.  The time of Baal’s birth and the celebration of this event were at the winter solstice.

As the myth and fable of Baal goes, Baal has a great love of humans and considers himself human even though he is a g-d.  In the mean time Mot (g-d of the dead – underworld) forms an alliance with Yaman (g-d over oceans and water) and with their hosts of demons and stuff declare war on mankind and Baal.  Baal is given power over weather (mostly thunder and lighting) and is a formidable opponent for Mot and Yaman but Baal is betrayed by a close allay and friend.  Mot and Yaman capture and crucify Baal by hanging him on the same tree that protected his mother.  Baal’s death for mankind is remembered by his worshipers at the fall equinox.  When Baal dies his consort gets his body and cares and prays for him through a long night that last till the spring equinox when Baal is resurrected completely immortal and defeats Mot and Yaman and frees man forever from their enslavement to Mot at death.

BTW the celebration of Baal’s resurrection by his worshipers, the English translation of this celebration is called “Easter”.  Some say that the traditional and Orthodox Christians have not been paganized but that the pagan worship has been Christianized.  Ether way it looks like a,“Halt between two opinions” to me.

I suggest that as you gather your family and friends around this Christmas that you go out of your way to make sure everyone understands the story as given in scripture and be clear to point out what has been added by the Traditional and Orthodox Christians as a myth and fable (including the December 25 thing). But you can do what ever you like.  Personally I am not that inspired by the myth and fable stuff, especially in light of the worship of the pagan g-d Baal.  I am inspired by the scriptures.

And to my LDS friends – when certain traditional and Orthodox Christians make a big deal about Mormons worshiping a different Jesus.  Well, that is probably a really good thing that you should treasure.

The Traveler

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(Why does he leave the "o" out of the word God?) Fight nice, kiddies.

B)

[prisonchaplain]

Originally posted by sugarbay@Dec 21 2005, 10:24 AM

Why does he leave the "o" out of the word God?  Fight nice, kiddies.

I believe Traveler is observing a practice common amongst the most Orthodox of Jews--that of not writing either the name or title of G-d, lest it be inadvertently used or quoted in vain. I've seen this quite often amongst Hassidic Jewish writings, for example.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by prisonchaplain+Dec 24 2005, 04:48 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-sugarbay@Dec 21 2005, 10:24 AM

Why does he leave the "o" out of the word God?  Fight nice, kiddies.

I believe Traveler is observing a practice common amongst the most Orthodox of Jews--that of not writing either the name or title of G-d, lest it be inadvertently used or quoted in vain. I've seen this quite often amongst Hassidic Jewish writings, for example.

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It was the practice among all ancients (Orthodox or otherwise - including the vile unorthodox Samaritans) that copied and preserved the scriptures.

The Traveler

[Guest funkyfool416]

Im not even gonna waste my time reading it but i bet it is retarded.

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by funkyfool416@Dec 27 2005, 11:58 AM

Im not even gonna waste my time reading it  but i bet it is retarded.

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BIZ: Please use another word for "stupid" rather than calling something "retarded". I have a very special Uncle who is Downs Syndrome, and I find the use of this word to be akin to calling "little people" midgets, or African-Americans the "n" word.

Thanks