real honest questions (homosexual tendencies)

[Gwen]

someone commented that the feelings would never go away... i don't think that's entirely accurate. sexual feelings and attractions can and do change at different stages in life. it's not uncommon for the first attractions of someone just starting puberty to be toward the same gender. not cause most ppl are gay just that sexual desire can be very confusing. it's not uncommon for someone that has always had very clear desires toward a particular type of person to become bored sexually and find themselves attracted to very different ppl than they normally would be (including the other gender). sexuality isn't always simple.

[LocalFarms]

Ether 12 tells us that we are given weaknesses to make us humble. All of us have weaknesses. The difference is, SSA is just more in the news lately, as Hollywood makes it seem more acceptable. But then, they also previously paved the way for infidelity in marriage, drug use, sexual perversion, child molestation, etc.

Do not let these distractions distract you. Yes, you will be tempted, just as we all are in our own weaknesses. Recognize it, and then humbly seek God's assistance day by day. Patience and humility are key virtues to seek here. Focus your life on areas you are strong in. You are a child of God with multiple dimensions. You are not the caricature that Hollywood wants to make out of all of us. Your SSA is just one small part of you, don't over focus on it to the point where it seems like the main thing.

Consider it this way: from an airplane, automobiles look like ants. However, if I plant my face on the hood of my car for hours at a time, eventually I'm going to think that the world is blue-green with a reflective tint. Don't focus so much on it.

At first, since it is now a big temptation for you, think of it this way: Look at each girl on campus you walk by with perfect love. Instead of looking at them as sex partners, look at them as daughters of a loving God. Think about each of them as your sister and best friend (healthy relationships), but reject the hormones. Think, "this is my sister. In the premortal existence, we lived happily with God and Jesus and Heavenly Mother in a perfectly loving relationship." Over time, you will rewire your brain to think in safer ways.

Pres Packer recommends to sing a hymn, pushing the temptation out of your head. Elder McConkie recommended that after the hymn, give yourself the most rousing spiritual talk you've ever heard on a different topic than your temptation.

Negative reinforcement can also stop such thoughts and rewire the brain. Wear a rubber band on your wrist. Whenever an inappropriate thought enters your head, give your rubber band a pull, and let it whack you on the wrist. After a while, your brain will connect the temptation with a negative feeling/response. I assure you this works, as I've used it many times in my life.

Don't beat up on yourself. Even Jesus was tempted. The key is to not give in to the temptation. Focus on your strengths, rewire your brain to think kindly of all around you.

I agree with everything but the rubber band trick. This is self abuse and A BAD IDEA! sorry Ramy but I had to point this out. I used this trick to try and quit smoking cigarettes but it only leads to feeling of self doubt

[rameumptom]

I suppose it depends on how badly a person wants to stop a bad habit. The rubber band is just one method that can be effective. And no, it is not self abuse, if done properly. I'm talking a small rubber band, not the kind used to launch rocks across the school yard.

Christ suggested that if one's eye or hand offends, then cut it off, for it is better to lose the one thing than to lose one's soul. I'm not going so far as to recommend anyone dismember him/herself. But if the temptations are very strong and difficult to control, often tying the negative experience with the temptation can make it work for a person.

Another example, there is medicine many people use to overcome alcoholism, which when you drink alcohol, makes you sick and throw up. Enough bad experiences with alcohol, and the brain rewires itself into realizing that it is not a good thing to drink.

[GaySaint]

Hi everyone. Sorry I’m late to this conversation. Been a busy few weeks :)

Saturn: Can I offer “the gay perspective” while at the same time avoiding telling you what you should do (I’ll leave that to your Heavenly Father, who loves you very very much, by the way)?

Miss Hathaway said something on another thread recently that I found very poignant. She said that it all comes down to self-acceptance. I think this is very important. At some point, you are going to have to come to terms with the fact that you are gay (or same-sex attracted, or however you want to identify it). You are going to have to find a way to deal with it, and accept it.

No one can tell you for sure whether or not this condition will exist in the next life, except God. Have you asked Him?

Just because you accept your feelings doesn’t mean you have to act one way or the other. Acceptance will allow you to finally merge both halves of yourself (the LDS side and the homosexual side). Then you can make a decision about how you want to handle them.

If you want the name and number of an amazing LDS counselor who deals exclusively with this issue, I can provide one. Just PM me.

I have no issue stating that I believe everyone on these boards loves you and are here to support you.

[GaySaint]

RAM: I thanked you for your post because I don't have the "laugh" button anymore. I love the rubber band idea, but not because I'm think it would work, but because if I tried that when I was in counseling I would have probably broken my wrist off, even with a little rubber band. Haha.

I remember one activity my counselor had me do. I put a picture of Christ on the back of a notepad, and every time I found someone of the same gender attractive I was to write down my thought process leading up to the "attraction" and look a the picture of Christ. I was in college, and after one day the entire notebook was full. When I returned the next week, my counselor threw it behind him and said "Well, that was futile."

I found the more I focused on the issue, the more difficult it became. It was only through acknowledgment and acceptance that I finally found peace.

Some will disagree with the way I have chosen to implement that acknowledgement and acceptance, but I think people in this situation need to find what works for them, and the ways of dealing once one has accepted that they will most likely have this issue for life are numerous and varied, and should be decided with the help of a loving father in Heaven.

[GaySaint]

I know... three posts in a row is a new record for me.

Saturn: You may want to check out this blog: How I Deal

She is a woman who deals with same-gender attraction too, and blogs about how she deals and remains faithful to the church. It may be a good place for you to get some inspiration or strength.

[MisterT]

While I'm not gay, and have never had any homosexual tendencies, I do know what it is to look at something you know you can't have and have inappropriate sexual feelings arise.

I like women. A lot. I can't help buy looking at beautiful women on the street and wonder what they look like undressed. Usually about that point I have to give myself a mental smack in the face and remind myself that I have 4 daughters. I wouldn't want some guy looking at them and thinking what I had, so I castigate myself, look away, and say a silent prayer to be strengthened against such thoughts.

I find temptation even more prevalent now that I've been divorced; its hard to fight down those unclean thoughts; but I pray every day to be strenghtened against them.

Most of my friends are women, ironically. Always have been. Amongst my friends are a former Playboy Playmate, a famous exotic dancer, an Army General Officer, and other women. No, I've never seen any of them naked, in person or photo (nor would I want to - I value our friendships), and each time I have that lurking curiosity I think of my daughters and chastise myself.

As you previously said, it would be good for you to seek male companionship; but not for any other purpose than friendship. I don't recommend that you date men in order to combat the feelings you're having as that would be unfair to whom you're dating, and would cause you undue confusion and stress.

Remember, The Lord loves you for who you are; your immortal soul, and not for what earthly carnal desires you have. The Elders of the Church love you. I love you.

[LocalFarms]

I suppose it depends on how badly a person wants to stop a bad habit. The rubber band is just one method that can be effective. And no, it is not self abuse, if done properly. I'm talking a small rubber band, not the kind used to launch rocks across the school yard.

Christ suggested that if one's eye or hand offends, then cut it off, for it is better to lose the one thing than to lose one's soul. I'm not going so far as to recommend anyone dismember him/herself. But if the temptations are very strong and difficult to control, often tying the negative experience with the temptation can make it work for a person.

Another example, there is medicine many people use to overcome alcoholism, which when you drink alcohol, makes you sick and throw up. Enough bad experiences with alcohol, and the brain rewires itself into realizing that it is not a good thing to drink.

It doesn't matter the size of the rubber band, you still inficting pain on yourself. I am not in favor of the medicne that makes you sick either. All my opinion I will state as a disclaimer.

[GADBabaganoosh]

We have struggles. We knew, before we came here, that we would all be subject to diverse trials and struggles. You have yours. (its probably not going to be the only one either.) You know whats right and whats wrong. Ask your bishop, pray mightily on it. Don't expect immediate answers, but you might get immediate answers. Ask what you can do to stay in harmony with God. Don't beleive the church is true, come to know it. I beleive these things will strengthen you. I think the best thing you can do is find your identity in this world, as a child of God. Once you confirm it WITH YOURSELF, you'll find strength from yourself and from God to overcome your problems. A testimony of the savior will form, and you, most of all, will become truly happy, and not lost and confused.

[Guest]

But alas, being a married heterosexual man, while you may not be able to act on your attractions to other women (or men), you do have an appropriate and approved outlet for your desires for physical intimacy. That is something a homosexuals who are following the law of chastity do not have, nor do they have much hope of ever having. So I don't think your play on empathy is really as good as you think.

I haven't read anything past this post, so this may have been addressed already.

I just want to make one point about the bolded statement above:

Finrock being married is one of the lucky ones that actually found an "outlet" for his attraction. Not all heterosexual people are as lucky.

The problem with the bolded statement is that it makes it seem like heterosexual people can be satisfied with any opposite gender they can get their hands on. This, of course, is not the case. Just like homosexual people are just not attracted to certain types of people, heterosexual people are not attracted to just anybody of the opposite gender as well.

There's quite a number of heterosexual people who end up marrying people they weren't attracted to because the person/s they wanted was/were unattainable. What they do is end up "learning" to love that other person and cultivating an attraction based on something beyond the physical. Just like what a homosexual person would have to do if they end up marrying somebody of the opposite gender.

Just my opinion of course - with some things based on experience.

[Seminarysnoozer]

First I have to confess that I posted a thread earlier this year about one of my friends struggling with homosexuality...well that friend was actually me. (I hope I dont get kicked off of here for that...)

I know that the atonement is for everyone and God loves us all individually...but I feel so lost right now. I don't know what I'm doing with my life and my gender attraction really isn't helping.

I have been struggling with homosexual tendencies since before I can remember, but I didn't recognize that it could really damage my testimony until I came up to college 3 years ago when I actually had to room with other girls (I'm an only child so I never had to live with other girls).

Yes, I know its a weakness. Yes I know it could lead to sin if I ever acted upon those tendencies, but I feel so alone. I just read Happyguy's post and it really unsettled me because right now my testimony is waivering and I feel like I really could head down that direction later in life.

This semester all of my guy friends were off track and so I was constantly around girls (which really was hard because I'm attracted to a couple of them) and my 'girly hormones' (you know, those super emotional ones?) decided to kick in and my attraction for girls completely exploded. I've had to walk to my classes with my eyes glued to the floor. I've tried to make more guy friends but it just hasn't happened.

My honest questions: did I do something wrong in the pre-existence? Did I do something wrong as a child? I don't feel like I'll ever be attracted to the opposite gender...will these tendencies honestly go away when I die? Will I really be a great person that my patriarchal blessing says I can be? Right now I can't see how I can be anything more than a struggling daughter of God who likes other daughters of God...

I really do believe this church is true...but this is so hard to deal with. All the devotionals and sacrament meetings about marriage (Yes, I do go to a BYU school), friends talking about boy troubles (at least I dont have those lol), dating, friends getting engaged, parents slightly upset that they might not get grandchildren...

Is ther honestly a place for me in the celestial kingdom if I'm not even attracted to the right gender?

I think one of the hardest concepts for people to understand is that we are duel beings, both spirit and body. In this life the body is mostly in control and that is part of the test. The way one feels and the tendencies we all have are part of this test we are in, to see if we will let the spirit win out. The default though, is that the body will win. If we do nothing the bodies tendencies will win out in everyone. And, we can only overcome the body's tendencies with Christ's help. Nobody can do it on their own. The natural man is an enemy to God for everybody, no matter what specific challenge you have been given in this life.

The mistake I think a lot of people make about it is that, who you are here is such a tiny, obliterated and altered fraction of who you really are in the pre-existence. Ask yourself, what percentage of what you knew in the pre-existence did you take with you here? Was it 50%, was it 10%, was it .000001%? My feeling is it is closer to the later. Just like the story of the 10 talents, we are given stewardships in this life to test our responsibility (i.e.- we didn't have them before). If we do well with what we are given here then we will have multiples of what we had and be added to.

What one is attracted to here may or may not have anything to do with what we were attracted to before? My husband is attracted to basketball, but I doubt basketball was part of his pre-earthly existence as it is a man-made sport. I think it is important to remember that we are duel beings here and for the most part the body is what we feel and think with, in short small glimpses we get to feel and think from our real self, the spirit.

[GaySaint]

Anatess: While I don’t disagree with you, and I see your parallel between picking someone you are less attracted to, I see a major flaw to your example.

Obviously there are people we are attracted to every day, sometimes, perhaps, even more than our spouses (or at least we may be attracted to one part of them, like their physical appearance, more than we are attracted to our spouses), but in your example, heterosexual men are still able to select a partner out of a “pool” of people they are attracted to (ie, women).

What gay members are asked to do is to completely leave that pool of attraction, and select a spouse out of a pool we have no interest in.

There may be some people who are not in your pool (say, for sake of argument, that you exclude ugly people) simply because you are not attracted to them. How would you feel if you were told that you would only be righteous if you were to select your partner from one of these people?

And it gets worse once you put gender into the equation. I’d rather marry the ugliest man on the planet than the most beautiful woman.

So while someone who is straight may lose out on the person he or she is attracted to most, they still have an entire pool of possible options that they can be attracted to.

Gay members are told that everyone they find attractive is off limits (I do realize that there are the occasional gay man who find one particular woman attractive enough to marry, but this is the exception, not the rule, and should not be the "default" or "expected" solution).

[MisterT]

I am wholeheartedly in favor of gay civil marriage on the grounds that the government has no authority to be involved in the realm of marriage.

My best freind in the whole wide world decided to go through gender reassignment surgery and now lives a very happy life as a woman married to a man. Several more of my friends are prominent (and famous) lesbians; their love is as strong as any I've ever seen.

However, the Church's stance is that marriage be between a man and a woman alone, and members who are homosexual are counciled to obstain from physical expressions of their sexual desires. I don't believe that the church would ever council anything else to gay members, regardless as to whether or not the civil authorities authorize same sex marriage; the chruchs' position is that marriage is between one man and one woman, and I doubt that will be changed for anything but the millennium, and then only to allow plural marriage.

I have brought my lesbian friends to church with me and they were not uncomfortable in any way; they were greeted with the utmost friendliness and deference. Nobody tried to "cure them of their gayness" or called them sinners. They were treated with all the love of a child of the living God.

I feel terrible for you that you are unable to find an outlet for your desires that, according to doctrine, are wholesome and appropriate. I have no suggestions, nor do I think it would be appropriate for me to offer an opinion on your situation; I have not walked the mile in your moccasins, so to speak.

I am aware of branches in the California Bay Area that are geared towards, and attended primarily by, gay members, and they even have their own monthly newsletters (I used to shoot with a group out of SF called "The Pink Pistols," and I met many gay members of the church there). The doctrine taught there is the same as anywhere else, and the only mention of sexuality is what's taught to heterosexual members; abstinence until marriage that is ordained by the Almighty.

FWIW, I love you, GaySaint; you are my brother in truth.

[Guest]

Anatess: While I don’t disagree with you, and I see your parallel between picking someone you are less attracted to, I see a major flaw to your example.

Obviously there are people we are attracted to every day, sometimes, perhaps, even more than our spouses (or at least we may be attracted to one part of them, like their physical appearance, more than we are attracted to our spouses), but in your example, heterosexual men are still able to select a partner out of a “pool” of people they are attracted to (ie, women).

What gay members are asked to do is to completely leave that pool of attraction, and select a spouse out of a pool we have no interest in.

There may be some people who are not in your pool (say, for sake of argument, that you exclude ugly people) simply because you are not attracted to them. How would you feel if you were told that you would only be righteous if you were to select your partner from one of these people?

And it gets worse once you put gender into the equation. I’d rather marry the ugliest man on the planet than the most beautiful woman.

So while someone who is straight may lose out on the person he or she is attracted to most, they still have an entire pool of possible options that they can be attracted to.

Gay members are told that everyone they find attractive is off limits (I do realize that there are the occasional gay man who find one particular woman attractive enough to marry, but this is the exception, not the rule, and should not be the "default" or "expected" solution).

GS, you may have missed the point of my post. I'm not saying ALL hetero people. I'm saying SOME hetero people. What I'm trying to point out is - this is not a GAY-ONLY issue.

What I'm trying to lead into is the conclusion that "we can't just have it just because we want it". So, for example, if we go about and change doctrine/laws/what-have-you to make it so that having sex with the same gender is accepted behavior then we will have to change doctrine/laws/what-have-you to make it so that some d00de can have sex with his mother or whatever.

Know what I'm saying?

[GaySaint]

Anatess: Again, I don’t disagree. Especially in religions where divorce is prohibited, it seems like someone in a heterosexual relationship who falls in love with someone else would have to choose between their religious beliefs and their “attraction.”

LDS members don’t have this issue, however, because divorce is not against church teachings. In the LDS faith, members have recourse if they feel their lives would be better suited with someone else.

So I see how the comparison can be made if a person is a devote Catholic, and cannot get divorced – or a priest, who must live his life alone (although this was his choice, while this decision is forced on gay people if they wish to remain in the church).

As to the necessity of changing doctrine to allow incestuous relationships if homosexual relationships are allowed: I totally disagree. I really hope I don’t have to explain why.

[Elgama]

one slight thing to say a priest who has followed call is so through choice can be as ignorant as saying a gay person chose to be gay:) naturally depends on the priest and circumstances

[GaySaint]

Elgama, I agree and didn't mean to come across like that... but a priest who chooses to get married and have a family over his call isn't said to be condemned for that choice any more than any other couple in the Catholic church is (according to their doctrine).

LDS people would even view that priest as having made the better choice. In LDS cannon (both Bible and D&C), forbidding to marry is a sin (and I'm still not sure that this sin doesn't apply to celibate gay people, but that's another topic, haha).

[Guest]

Anatess: Again, I don’t disagree. Especially in religions where divorce is prohibited, it seems like someone in a heterosexual relationship who falls in love with someone else would have to choose between their religious beliefs and their “attraction.”

LDS members don’t have this issue, however, because divorce is not against church teachings. In the LDS faith, members have recourse if they feel their lives would be better suited with someone else.

So I see how the comparison can be made if a person is a devote Catholic, and cannot get divorced – or a priest, who must live his life alone (although this was his choice, while this decision is forced on gay people if they wish to remain in the church).

As to the necessity of changing doctrine to allow incestuous relationships if homosexual relationships are allowed: I totally disagree. I really hope I don’t have to explain why.

I don't know if I'm not understanding you. I'm pretty thick today! I still feel you didn't "get" my point.

The statement was: Homosexual people are disadvantaged because they are prohibited from acting on their attractions... TO ANYONE because they can't possibly get attracted to the "allowed" avenue of the opposite gender. Hetero people do not have this disadvantage.

I disagreed with this because the fact that you are hetero doesn't release this disadvantage.

I don't think a priest or being allowed divorce or any of that is relevant to the statement.

There are women who are only attracted to young boys - that is fact. The boy grows up, the attraction fades. There are men who are only attracted to their mothers - another fact. These people get "helped" and "changed" and "forced" to have relationships outside of their "attraction pool" or remain celibate, the exact same way some of us "help", "change", and "force" gay people to have relationships outside of their gender or remain celibate. I had 2 neighbors who insisted on marrying their first cousins because that's who they loved (against the law - both church and state) and they're just not attracted to anybody else - and having them forced out of marrying these people is the same as forcing a gay person to marry somebody else - their words (okay, truth, only one of them said it but he thinks the other person would feel the same way). One of them is in the Philippines - so he has no recourse but to live in "sin" because Philippine law and the Catholic Church do not allow it. The other one lived in Ohio but he moved to Pennsylvania where it was allowed, so at least he got that recourse.

I know you're going to say, those people are sick in the head (maybe not the cousin-lovers, although some would disagree). Being a hetero girl, I can't really grasp the difference. I chalk it up to my ignorance on the subject.

And yes, you said you don't really disagree so I'm just clarifying my point for the other folks.

You know you're one of my favorite people, GS.

[GaySaint]

Right back at ya Anatess :) I love ya!

Ah. I see what you are saying. And no, I don't necessarily think that people who are attracted in the manners that you describe are sick in the head. I think the only difference I can point out here is, as you said, the attraction fades.

A person who is attracted to the young, whose attractions fade, in my mind, is not real love. After all, if they fell in love with someone who was young, why would that love falter once that person hits puberty, or whatever? I would have a hard time calling that love. Attraction, sure, but love, no.

And so I find we now have to separate attraction from love. I think it would be fair to say that homosexuals find themselves ATTRACTED to members of the same sex, and only capable of falling in LOVE with the same sex, while someone attracted to children cannot really fall into any type of enduring love with them, because they are in love with their youth, not the person.

And even still, my cousin married at 14 with the blessing of her parents to a man who was 19. I don't know how the church would have handled this situation had they asked for a temple wedding, but their marriage was just as legal and valid in the law as it was in the church (ie, they could perform marriage "acts" and it wasn't a sin). So there are ways even for a pedophile to fulfill his desires within the bounds the Lord has set... interestingly enough. They divorced when she was 18 because his attraction to her faded. But will the Lord punish him? I don't see how. He followed the laws of both state and God, and I'm quite certain he didn't mean to purposely deceive my cousin.

Does that make sense? Thoughts?

[Elgama]

Elgama, I agree and didn't mean to come across like that... but a priest who chooses to get married and have a family over his call isn't said to be condemned for that choice any more than any other couple in the Catholic church is (according to their doctrine).

LDS people would even view that priest as having made the better choice. In LDS cannon (both Bible and D&C), forbidding to marry is a sin (and I'm still not sure that this sin doesn't apply to celibate gay people, but that's another topic, haha).

LOL I know its off topic just its related to a post I had just written on a completely unrelated UK forum, about homosexuals and B&Bs apparently I am bigoted and being able to sit round a table with several gay people doesn't change that I was then jumped on for my religion and been told to just change it and its a choice. I don't view my relationship with God as a choice its as much a part of me as you being Homosexual. And for some reason I am touchier than normal probably with no being able to attend church right now

And is defying a call from God really a choice? the church may not condemn him but....

OK will get back on topic

[Guest]

Right back at ya Anatess :) I love ya!

Ah. I see what you are saying. And no, I don't necessarily think that people who are attracted in the manners that you describe are sick in the head. I think the only difference I can point out here is, as you said, the attraction fades.

A person who is attracted to the young, whose attractions fade, in my mind, is not real love. After all, if they fell in love with someone who was young, why would that love falter once that person hits puberty, or whatever? I would have a hard time calling that love. Attraction, sure, but love, no.

And so I find we now have to separate attraction from love. I think it would be fair to say that homosexuals find themselves ATTRACTED to members of the same sex, and only capable of falling in LOVE with the same sex, while someone attracted to children cannot really fall into any type of enduring love with them, because they are in love with their youth, not the person.

And even still, my cousin married at 14 with the blessing of her parents to a man who was 19. I don't know how the church would have handled this situation had they asked for a temple wedding, but their marriage was just as legal and valid in the law as it was in the church (ie, they could perform marriage "acts" and it wasn't a sin). So there are ways even for a pedophile to fulfill his desires within the bounds the Lord has set... interestingly enough. They divorced when she was 18 because his attraction to her faded. But will the Lord punish him? I don't see how. He followed the laws of both state and God, and I'm quite certain he didn't mean to purposely deceive my cousin.

Does that make sense? Thoughts?

Oh yes, definitely, it makes sense. In the case of your cousin, strictly speaking about Church doctrine and not State laws - I don't think their marriage in of itself was a sin (I don't know of any age restrictions as far as Church goes other than they be baptized first?) - although, I would doubt the soundness of their decision to marry - and that may be a transgression - you know, like somebody marrying somebody else only because they're cute or something like that. God intended the marriage covenant to be much more than that and although I can't really judge any 14-year-old's understanding and commitment to that covenant, I can attest to the fact that I didn't know much when I was 14, let alone know what love and marriage is all about.

My opinion is - I don't believe we can say one way or the other if the Lord will punish anybody. Even Hitler. Yes, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Hitler was a big sinner but that remains and always will remain as my take on the matter. Jesus may judge him differently - could be that he gets a pass because he was sick in the head and had no control of his faculties, or something like that.

I can say without a shadow of a doubt that gay people engaging in sexual relations with somebody of the same gender is sinning but that remains, and always will remain as my understanding of doctrine, with the guidance of the Prophets. I cannot and should not tell that gay person that the Lord will punish him and he will "burn in hell" or whatever.

I can only teach what I know is true. Everybody has to make their own decisions and face God on their own merits.

Edited April 8, 2010 by anatess
typo.

[cofchristcousin]

A quick interuption: Community of Christ's World Conference begins Saturday. The primary item on the agenda is consideration of Words of Counsel through our Prophet. IF the Counsel is affirmed it will open the way for national conferences to allow same sex marriage and ordination of people in same sex marriages. It is being done this way to protect our Saints in countries where homosexuality is a taboo subject and could bring violence.