Arrogant People

[Guest mormonmusic]

I'm finding a certain amount of irony here. As you are interpreting Snow's feedback as a weakness on his part (you are ascribing it to arrogance), he being the one who objects to your behavior. Of course you probably don't consider it honest feedback, but neither would someone who is arrogant.

So, are you the arrogant one? Or is Snow? You handy dandy line can make a case either way. Note: I'm not accusing either of you of being arrogant, just pointing out something that I'm finding mildly amusing, kinda like a teetotaler trying to convince an AA meeting he doesn't have a problem.

I see the irony too Dravin -- this question is a bit like the question "if a tree falls in the forest and there's no one around to hear it, does it make a sound?". If I say I'm not arrogant, then I can be accused of being arrogant, but lacking self-awareness, like most arrogant people.

Good news is that I've been described as a lot of things over the years -- analytical, a bit sloppy with details, but never arrogant. I've asked a few of my family and friends the question too after I saw how unbecoming arrogance is in others. I asked "do I have tendencies toward arrogance?" and they say no, but then list off my other weaknesses. So, to the extent that I can trust those perceptions, I've concluded that I'm not.

Which leads me to another question -- MOE -- you said you're one of the most arrogant people you know. How did you conclude you're arrogant? How did you get that self-awareness in the first place?

[Guest mormonmusic]

i think i understand what you are saying.

it can be a difficult thing to find musicians that can meld together into a band. personality issues....musical issues.......definately ego issues.......and each and every one of the band searching for themselves in their music.......and if they are not, how comitted to their music are they?

on the other hand....if they seem to be primadonas, how comitted to being a member of a group for the glory of music, are they?

so..perhaps you are learning something about leadership here, and diplomacy.

I've found that being a band leader, and a member of a band at large is the MOST taxing team-building situation a person can find themself. I've been involved in church teams, remote work teams, teams at work, teams among university folks, sports teams, etcetera, and it's always hardest to keep a group of poorly paid musicians together.

What I've learned is that you have to make your decisions by consensus. Don't make a big decision without the group having a say. And it only works when the guys in the group have maturity. The current group I play with, all but one have relgious values, and we talked about maturity, communication, expectations, etcetera up front. Individually, they do relationship checks in case they offended someone -- by apologizing for perceived offenses, asking how it's going, and such and such. And when they aren't happy with something, they say it rather than letting it fester to the point they quit.

It's really about maturity in my view -- something that musicians and people in general tend to develop more of, as they get older. It's closely related to humility and caring about relationships as much as getting the job done.

In my opinion.... I was going to say "in my humble opinion" but a wise man once said that as soon as you say you're humble you've lost your humility :)

Send me an email address and I can send a link to the biographies and pictures of the band, and sound samples, if you're interested......

Edited April 4, 2010 by mormonmusic

[GADBabaganoosh]

I'm the most humble person ever.

[Tamiele]

We have a gal in our ward....who does alot of damage by her attitude. She can be very abrasive as well as putting others down to build herself (and her family) up. She is a convert who does it all - walks the walk, talks the talk, but really misses the point. I was coming back to church after being inactive. She was assigned as my VT. I phoned and asked for someone different as I felt worse after she left than before she came. I was feeling pretty good about myself - coming back to church, raising my kids in the gospel, and alot of other personal changes I had made for the good. But, I wasn't a Temple Recommend holder, I didn't have a calling yet, etc., so she always pointed that out. Here we are now 5 years later. I have a calling, a Temple Recommend....and she is still hurting people's feelings.

[Bini]

Could arrogance be in the eye of the beholder? I mean.. is someone kind just because others feel that they're kind? You could do kind things but have ulterior motives that aren't always apparent to those around you. Couldn't the same be with arrogance? What you're concluding as arrogance isn't meant as superiority but rather an unwavering confident demeanor? Is that really so bad? Are you automatically arrogant if others lack self-esteem and feel insecure around you? These are just some thoughts I had and they aren't directed to anyone.

[dazed-and-confused]

We have a gal in our ward....who does alot of damage by her attitude. She can be very abrasive as well as putting others down to build herself (and her family) up. She is a convert who does it all - walks the walk, talks the talk, but really misses the point. I was coming back to church after being inactive. She was assigned as my VT. I phoned and asked for someone different as I felt worse after she left than before she came. I was feeling pretty good about myself - coming back to church, raising my kids in the gospel, and alot of other personal changes I had made for the good. But, I wasn't a Temple Recommend holder, I didn't have a calling yet, etc., so she always pointed that out. Here we are now 5 years later. I have a calling, a Temple Recommend....and she is still hurting people's feelings.

my dear sister, i am so sorry for that. realize, however, that EVERYBODY still has issues here. i do understand your angst....

how many times have i...and many, MANY more thought, if they only saw things the way i do...

and then gratefully acknowledged that we don't know evrything and have a limited perspective.

do you know anything about extroverts and introverts?

these are personality types, but ONLY personality types.

don't confuse them for spiritual awareness.

[declanr]

Arrogance seems to be the point in which you cross the line from confident, to obnoxious, narcissistic and over-confident.

I was in a band once, and I understand the situation, it seems every band and some point has a guy like that.

Tamiele pointed out a big problem with many people who may not normally be arrogant, or over-confident. But they have made up their mind that the way they are living their life be it by being a good LDS member, or whatever, is the best and only way to live, then they look down on others who do not. This is piety, or religious arrogance, and I think its one of the worst forms of arrogance. There are around a Billion Muslims in the world who "know" Mohammad is the prophet and Islam is the one true religion, I think at the point a person can say "I know", instead of "I have faith that...", or "I believe that..." X is true, they have reached the point of religious arrogance. The same goes for Christians, Jews, etc.

Oh, and happy easter!

Dec

[Guest mormonmusic]

Could arrogance be in the eye of the beholder? I mean.. is someone kind just because others feel that they're kind? You could do kind things but have ulterior motives that aren't always apparent to those around you. Couldn't the same be with arrogance? What you're concluding as arrogance isn't meant as superiority but rather an unwavering confident demeanor? Is that really so bad? Are you automatically arrogant if others lack self-esteem and feel insecure around you? These are just some thoughts I had and they aren't directed to anyone.

I see your exploration here -- that certain personalities can be oversensitive, and therefore, take offense when others say things that hits THEIR own achilles tendon. I think there is probably some of this mislabelling happening everyday.

On the other hand, I think there is another breed of arrogance that defies borders -- so a LOT of people see it, and even comment on it privately. We had a young medical student in our Ward that was like that. My assistant refused to get the home teaching report from him because of his arrogant attitude. I personally found him arrogant based on three or four incidents when I observed him in meetings. Then, my other assistant made the comment that "this person has a problem with the world".

I think one has to be careful of drawing conclusions about a person's character weaknesses on the strength of one isolated incident -- but when you see it all over the place, consistently, I think the conclusion is more likely to be accurate.

I think Tamiele's post above describes the insensitivity that many arrogant people have -- going on an on about things they have, that others don't. One thing we teach our children in FHE is not to talk about things they have when others lack them -- this can lead people to think you're arrogant --puffing yourself up around others who lack the blessings you have.

I also think Tamiele handled the situation very well - by asking to have the person removed. Presumably, tactfullly. On the other hand, I've often wondered if the arrogant person loses by not learning anything about the impact their behavior has on other people.

I also think this -- being sensitive to how others might be made to feel badly about their own life, and to avoid saying things that will bring them down unecessarily is the mark of a truly "gentle" person (as in gentlewoman, gentleman).

Edited April 4, 2010 by mormonmusic

[Tamiele]

my dear sister, i am so sorry for that. realize, however, that EVERYBODY still has issues here. i do understand your angst....

how many times have i...and many, MANY more thought, if they only saw things the way i do...

and then gratefully acknowledged that we don't know evrything and have a limited perspective.

do you know anything about extroverts and introverts?

these are personality types, but ONLY personality types.

don't confuse them for spiritual awareness.

But don't they have to intersect at some point? This person has a reputation for being the way she is. She has had numerous callings and changes had to be made because she doesn't work well with others and wants to claim her territory, and that her responsibilities are hers and no one can modify or suggest to her that she do things differently than she has already planned out. I have seen friends walk away from her with tears in their eyes, after she has been harsh, because the general way to handle this woman in the ward - is to handle it amongst ourselves rather than get into it with her. I guess everyone hopes she will recognize this side of her that is in opposition to any spiritual progress she is attempting to make.

[Guest mormonmusic]

But don't they have to intersect at some point? This person has a reputation for being the way she is. She has had numerous callings and changes had to be made because she doesn't work well with others and wants to claim her territory, and that her responsibilities are hers and no one can modify or suggest to her that she do things differently than she has already planned out. I have seen friends walk away from her with tears in their eyes, after she has been harsh, because the general way to handle this woman in the ward - is to handle it amongst ourselves rather than get into it with her. I guess everyone hopes she will recognize this side of her that is in opposition to any spiritual progress she is attempting to make.

And this is precisely what prompted me to make the Opening Post. The only way I've been able to work successfuly with these people is to resort to toleration, which makes the relationship partly one of suffering until the project ends, or to distance myself from them so I don't have to work with them at all.

They don't seem to put any stock in a discussion of emotional/relationship types of issues, so you can't reason with them on that point. And, as I said earlier, they tend to blame negative feedback about their behavior on you -- it's perceived as weakness on your own part. And often, they can point to the fact that they were right about getting the job done (even though it wasn't the only way), thinking this nullifies any concerns you have anyway.....

So, I wonder how you get along with people like this so you have a good relationship -- on an ongoing basis?

Edited April 5, 2010 by mormonmusic

[bytor2112]

Sounds like you need to apply a little Alma Ch.7 to them:

23 And now I would that ye should be humble, and be submissive and gentle; easy to be entreated; full of patience and long-suffering; being temperate in all things; being diligent in keeping the commandments of God at all times; asking for whatsoever things ye stand in need, both spiritual and temporal; always returning thanks unto God for whatsoever things ye do receive.

Submitted courtesy of the supremely awesome and most goodest Bytor the magnificent.

[Guest mormonmusic]

Sounds like you need to apply a little Alma Ch.7 to them:

23 And now I would that ye should be humble, and be submissive and gentle; easy to be entreated; full of patience and long-suffering; being temperate in all things; being diligent in keeping the commandments of God at all times; asking for whatsoever things ye stand in need, both spiritual and temporal; always returning thanks unto God for whatsoever things ye do receive.

Submitted courtesy of the supremely awesome and most goodest Bytor the magnificent.

Thank you Oh Gracious Bytor One, I shall be temperate, patient and long-suffering and put up with thee as long as I can....five, four, three, two...

[Wingnut]

Sounds like you need to apply a little Alma Ch.7 to them:

23 And now I would that ye should be humble, and be submissive and gentle; easy to be entreated; full of patience and long-suffering; being temperate in all things; being diligent in keeping the commandments of God at all times; asking for whatsoever things ye stand in need, both spiritual and temporal; always returning thanks unto God for whatsoever things ye do receive.

Submitted courtesy of the supremely awesome and most goodest Bytor the magnificent.

Since I'm obviously more intelligent than you, allow me to point out that "most goodest" is entirely grammatically incorrect.

{not arrogant}

[bytor2112]

Since I'm obviously more intelligent than you, allow me to point out that "most goodest" is entirely grammatically incorrect.

{not arrogant}

not when your from the South.....

[dorave]

So, I wonder how you get along with people like this so you have a good relationship -- on an ongoing basis?

Just be humble, refrain from being judgemental, forgive them for any offences, and repent when you slip up on the first three things I've just mentioned and your sweet.

[Wingnut]

not when your from the South.....

You mean "you're"?

[bytor2112]

You mean "you're"?

oh....no, I meant yore and frum...

[Guest mormonmusic]

Just be humble, refrain from being judgemental, forgive them for any offences, and repent when you slip up on the first three things I've just mentioned and your sweet.

I see this as the normal course of action when one finds themselves in a relationship that is trying for whatever reason -- due to the presence of arrogance or any other challenges. But for the long term, I usually try to avoid situations that require me to be constantly exerting myself to forgive offenses....

I considered giving honest feedback to the arrogant person, but a) I don't think they would accept it given their elevated opinion of themselves and b) one could be accused of mote-beam sickness, where you're pointing out other people's failings while ignoring your own c) trying to change people rarely results in a satisfactory outcome anyway.

So, it sounds like sheer avoidance of long-term exposure to arrogant people where possible is the best thing for one's inner peace -- just avoid long-term relationships with arrogant people if you have the flexibiilty....I see no other solution offered...no one seems to know how to make the relationship more pleasant....

Edited April 6, 2010 by mormonmusic

[Wisc]

Whenever someone accuses me of being arrogant, I simply point out to them that I can not help that Im a gorgeous fiend. Its just the card I was delt. And over the years I have come to realize that Im not evil- Im just good looking.

[Dravin]

Whenever someone accuses me of being arrogant, I simply point out to them that I can not help that Im a gorgeous fiend. Its just the card I was delt. And over the years I have come to realize that Im not evil- Im just good looking.

You and Derek Zoolander should form a support group.

[dorave]

I see this as the normal course of action when one finds themselves in a relationship that is trying for whatever reason -- due to the presence of arrogance or any other challenges. But for the long term, I usually try to avoid situations that require me to be constantly exerting myself to forgive offenses....

I considered giving honest feedback to the arrogant person, but a) I don't think they would accept it given their elevated opinion of themselves and b) one could be accused of mote-beam sickness, where you're pointing out other people's failings while ignoring your own c) trying to change people rarely results in a satisfactory outcome anyway.

So, it sounds like sheer avoidance of long-term exposure to arrogant people where possible is the best thing for one's inner peace -- just avoid long-term relationships with arrogant people if you have the flexibiilty....I see no other solution offered...no one seems to know how to make the relationship more pleasant....

its unrealistic to think there is a single solution.

[Bluejay]

Hi, Declanr.

Arrogance seems to be the point in which you cross the line from confident, to obnoxious, narcissistic and over-confident.

The trouble is that everybody draws the line in a different place.

Some people think people who try to give advice to someone else are arrogant.

Some people think people who contradict them are arrogant.

Some people think people who complain about somebody else's actions are arrogant.

Some people think people who post terse messages on internet forums sound arrogant.

Some people think people who post detailed, wordy messages on internet forums sound arrogant.

Like Bini says, it's more of an "eye of the beholder" thing: it's a label applied when another person feels inferior and wants to increase their feeling of self-worth by rallying a support group. Other than that, there really aren't any objective, consistent criteria for determining who is arrogant.

[marts1]

its unrealistic to think there is a single solution.

Are you sure about that? I can think of one solution that would solve all of the ills of this world. "repentance"

[Guest mormonmusic]

its unrealistic to think there is a single solution.

The problem is, you can say that about just any problem.

However, because there is usually more than 1 solution to a problem, I've often wondered if, when I had to let the guitar player go, if that might've been a good time to let him know why. Tell him the truth -- that the other guys perceived him as arrogant, cite a few examples, and also indicate my agreement with their assessment. It might've been uncomfortable, or smarted a bit, but at least he would've left the band knowing what he'd done.

He could then accept or reject the perception of his character. My opinion is that most arrogant people would reject the perception others have of them, chalking it up to childlessness, oversensitivity or some other weakness in the eye of the beholder.

I wonder if arrogant people get enough of this kind of feedback, would they eventually take it to heart? In not telling them, are we doing them a disservice?

[Guest mormonmusic]

Hi, Declanr.

The trouble is that everybody draws the line in a different place.

Some people think people who try to give advice to someone else are arrogant.

Some people think people who contradict them are arrogant.

Some people think people who complain about somebody else's actions are arrogant.

Some people think people who post terse messages on internet forums sound arrogant.

Some people think people who post detailed, wordy messages on internet forums sound arrogant.

Like Bini says, it's more of an "eye of the beholder" thing: it's a label applied when another person feels inferior and wants to increase their feeling of self-worth by rallying a support group. Other than that, there really aren't any objective, consistent criteria for determining who is arrogant.

Yes, but as I said earlier, when you hear the moniker "arrogant" fall from the lips of several people who have interacted with the person, I think that's an indication it's more than an isolatd perception.

I had one person tell me I was "aloof". I'd never heard that in my entire life before. Sure, I'd heard lots of other things, but "aloof" wasn't one of them. I asked a couple close friends and my family if I appeared that way, and they said "No". So, I rejected that description of my character as an isolated incident, but it bothered me.

Three years later the person who said it approached me and apologized and said it wasn't true. Turns out he was angry I didn't side with him on the resolution of a welfare issue I was involved in with him at Church.

So, you have to be careful of individual interpretations. But when everyone in the band is complaining about the guy's arrogance, I think it's gone beyond individual perception...