Good + Evil = God?

[justaname]

I just got done with an hour long conversation with a friend that is an atheist. I cant say I have ever talked with an atheist before, but I find their logic somewhat interesting. Not because it is compelling, but rather because it seems self defeating. Our conversation centered around the concept of good and evil. This individual wholly believes in good and in evil, yet feels that it is his right to determine which is which. Now I totally believe in free agency, but obviously dont feel that it is anyone's right to determine what is good and what is evil. If each person actually got to choose what is good and what is evil, what would the outcome of society be?

On to the next point. Is it an unfair assumption to conclude that because an individual recognizes good and evil, regardless of what they decide good is or isnt, doesnt the mere existence of good and evil prove that there is a higher power? Lets not look at this from an LDS perspective, or even a Christian perspective. How about we look at this collectively as believers in a supreme being. If there was no supreme being, is it possible to still have good an evil? If you say yes, what actually makes something good and something evil? Is it a culture, a person, or...what?

For any of you that may be an atheist, or have more knowledge of the concept than I do, help me understand what would motivate an atheist to do anything other than pleasure themselves? What do they have to live for and what keeps them from running amok in society?

[Intrigued]

I just got done with an hour long conversation with a friend that is an atheist. I cant say I have ever talked with an atheist before, but I find their logic somewhat interesting. Not because it is compelling, but rather because it seems self defeating. Our conversation centered around the concept of good and evil. This individual wholly believes in good and in evil, yet feels that it is his right to determine which is which. Now I totally believe in free agency, but obviously dont feel that it is anyone's right to determine what is good and what is evil. If each person actually got to choose what is good and what is evil, what would the outcome of society be?

On to the next point. Is it an unfair assumption to conclude that because an individual recognizes good and evil, regardless of what they decide good is or isnt, doesnt the mere existence of good and evil prove that there is a higher power? Lets not look at this from an LDS perspective, or even a Christian perspective. How about we look at this collectively as believers in a supreme being. If there was no supreme being, is it possible to still have good an evil? If you say yes, what actually makes something good and something evil? Is it a culture, a person, or...what?

For any of you that may be an atheist, or have more knowledge of the concept than I do, help me understand what would motivate an atheist to do anything other than pleasure themselves? What do they have to live for and what keeps them from running amok in society?

It sounds to me that your friend is simply expressing his belief in relative morality. That is.. what is good to one culture may be evil to another. This can even be seen in our own cities.. among the LDS there is a firm no drug policy (they are 'evil') and yet among some circles drugs are encouraged and considered to even be enlightening.

The ideas of 'good and evil' are necessary structures for social life. Even among animals.. failure to follow a 'code' of sorts results in exile.

What makes an atheist tick? The same thing that makes you tick. Atheists have goals, loved ones, careers, highs and lows, etc. I've got to say that most atheists I know really live their life 'like it matters', they believe they only live once.. so they make the most of it. If you think about it.. is there any motivation outside of survival and pleasuring ones self? Religious people do good so that they may get something better one day.. Christianity in general is hardly selfless.

Edited May 13, 2010 by Intrigued

[Tyler90AZ]

The mere existence of good and evil does not mean there is a higher power it is created and etched into our mind from birth so it is cultural. If you are a Atheist or Deist you have your own opinion of good and evil, but societal norms would dictate what morals you have to live by.

[Seminarysnoozer]

It sounds to me that your friend is simply expressing his belief in relative morality. That is.. what is good to one culture may be evil to another. This can even be seen in our own cities.. among the LDS there is a firm no drug policy (they are 'evil') and yet among some circles drugs are encouraged and considered to even be enlightening.

The ideas of 'good and evil' are necessary structures for social life. Even among animals.. failure to follow a 'code' of sorts results in exile.

What makes an atheist tick? The same thing that makes you tick. Atheists have goals, loved ones, careers, highs and lows, etc. I've got to say that most atheists I know really live their life 'like it matters', they believe they only live once.. so they make the most of it. If you think about it.. is there any motivation outside of survival and pleasuring ones self? Religious people do good so that they may get something better one day.. Christianity in general is hardly selfless.

I disagree. I think there is a difference between "get something better" versus the feeling one has knowing that they have done well.

If I obtain a job by submitting false information on a resume like a high gpa, I would feel less happy than if I had obtained the job by reporting true information and really getting the high gpa. Even thought the "getting something better" - a job was the same, the way it is obtained makes a difference.

There is a feeling of happiness that comes from doing well and doing what is right. People that are atheist don't understand where that feeling comes from. They are still sons and daughters of God and so they still have similar reactions to what drives everyone, its just that they deny where those positive feelings come from.

I also don't understand how atheists as you say "live their life like it matters" and yet their belief suggests there is no purpose to this life, it doesn't make sense to me and I think they are simply confused. If a person believes that there is nothingness after this life than by definition after death nothing will matter to that person. So, their belief that what they are doing matters is just a momentary lie to themselves (according to their belief) to keep going. And if the core of what they believe is made up than anything they have to say about good and evil is just as prone to be made up.

[Tyler90AZ]

I disagree. I think there is a difference between "get something better" versus the feeling one has knowing that they have done well.

If I obtain a job by submitting false information on a resume like a high gpa, I would feel less happy than if I had obtained the job by reporting true information and really getting the high gpa. Even thought the "getting something better" - a job was the same, the way it is obtained makes a difference.

There is a feeling of happiness that comes from doing well and doing what is right. People that are atheist don't understand where that feeling comes from. They are still sons and daughters of God and so they still have similar reactions to what drives everyone, its just that they deny where those positive feelings come from.

I also don't understand how atheists as you say "live their life like it matters" and yet their belief suggests there is no purpose to this life, it doesn't make sense to me and I think they are simply confused. If a person believes that there is nothingness after this life than by definition after death nothing will matter to that person. So, their belief that what they are doing matters is just a momentary lie to themselves (according to their belief) to keep going. And if the core of what they believe is made up than anything they have to say about good and evil is just as prone to be made up.

Everybody has a different set of morals and how far they will push them. The way you feel about doing something right is different then what somebody else would feel. For the general population yes you are correct, but not everybody feels that. Some people will just be happy they got the job.

Atheists "live their life like it matters" because they know it is their only one so they do as much as they can in their life. The reason they keep going is because no one wants to die(sane people). As LDS we know there will be an after life so we accept death with a smile, but no one wants to die. Most people even Atheists are good people who want to live a good life. Good and evil is subjective though based on the culture you were raised in. To most it is subjective but we know what good and evil really is as LDS.

Edited May 13, 2010 by Tyler90AZ

[justaname]

It sounds to me that your friend is simply expressing his belief in relative morality. That is.. what is good to one culture may be evil to another. This can even be seen in our own cities.. among the LDS there is a firm no drug policy (they are 'evil') and yet among some circles drugs are encouraged and considered to even be enlightening.

The ideas of 'good and evil' are necessary structures for social life. Even among animals.. failure to follow a 'code' of sorts results in exile.

What makes an atheist tick? The same thing that makes you tick. Atheists have goals, loved ones, careers, highs and lows, etc. I've got to say that most atheists I know really live their life 'like it matters', they believe they only live once.. so they make the most of it. If you think about it.. is there any motivation outside of survival and pleasuring ones self? Religious people do good so that they may get something better one day.. Christianity in general is hardly selfless.

Im not aware of any species that exile a member for committing an evil act. Most evictions from their group are done to reduce competition amongst the males. I dont think that there is any awareness of good vs. evil, or code in the animal kingdom. Its strictly survival. (I admit Im not zoologist, but if anyone can prove me wrong, it would be a fascinating thing to learn about). I have a hard time believing that humans would behave any differently if we collective we had no knowledge or belief of a supreme being.

Of course Atheists have loved ones, careers, and goals. I dont see how that correlates to good vs. evil. Im interested in how they determine good vs. evil. I think the easy answer to that question is that they interpret good and evil based on their culture. The more difficult thing to answer is if they believe in things that are inherently evil or good. If an act is inherently good or evil, that would mean it transcends any cultural influence. So, what makes something inherently good or evil if there is no supreme being?

Also, the concept of living life like it matters because you only get one try, makes me think that one would be more prone to indulge in things that we god-fearing people would recognize as sin. Total speculation, I know.

[Moksha]

... doesnt the mere existence of good and evil prove that there is a higher power?

If an ice cold Coca-Cola existed in a forest with nobody around to drink it, would it still be good? I think so.

[Onhech]

Ah the philosophy of Hobbes. Or maybe originally Satan. Hobbes thinks that we all work off of base emotions, we don't really make decisions but just follow basic selfish instincts, he believes that artificial life is still life. He was a physicalist, everything was physical. It a very attracting scientific method because you can account for anything using physical objects and motions!

The funny think about your friends philosophy is that because he believes it he fulfills it. Because he believes he is nothing more then an animal with basic selfish desires he can fully embrace the nature man and do what he wants. While we who believe otherwise fight the nature man and strive to overcome our instincts because we believe something else is coming down the road.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Lynden Jensen

Check out my blog at

Know♣Justice

Edited May 13, 2010 by Onhech

[justaname]

If an ice cold Coca-Cola existed in a forest with nobody around to drink it, would it still be good? I think so.

If an ice cold Coca-Cola existed in an arid desert with thousands of people aching for fluid, it would still taste like @#$%.

[hordak]

Im not aware of any species that exile a member for committing an evil act. Most evictions from their group are done to reduce competition amongst the males. I dont think that there is any awareness of good vs. evil, or code in the animal kingdom. Its strictly survival. (I admit Im not zoologist, but if anyone can prove me wrong, it would be a fascinating thing to learn about). I have a hard time believing that humans would behave any differently if we collective we had no knowledge or belief of a supreme being.

Of course Atheists have loved ones, careers, and goals. I dont see how that correlates to good vs. evil. Im interested in how they determine good vs. evil. I think the easy answer to that question is that they interpret good and evil based on their culture. The more difficult thing to answer is if they believe in things that are inherently evil or good. If an act is inherently good or evil, that would mean it transcends any cultural influence. So, what makes something inherently good or evil if there is no supreme being?

Also, the concept of living life like it matters because you only get one try, makes me think that one would be more prone to indulge in things that we god-fearing people would recognize as sin. Total speculation, I know.

There is nothing inherently good or evil even in religion (at least Christianity). Look at the OT, (Assuming you take a literal approach to the OT) look at how Nephi obtained the plates.

[rameumptom]

Recent studies show that good an evil are not concepts we learn from our environment, but are born with such innate concepts. Six month old babies were shown a puppet play, where one puppet climbed a steep hill. A second puppet assisted the first puppet climb, while a third attempted to push/pull it back down to the bottom.

Afterward, the two "helper" puppets were brought out for the babies to look at. Facial expressions and the amount of time devoted to the helpful puppet, while the bad puppet was ignored, showed that the babies already understood some concepts of good/evil.

That said, our culture than takes us and twists about that innate good/evil conception, until many people no longer believe in complete right/wrong, but only in relative moralism.

[Hemidakota]

I just got done with an hour long conversation with a friend that is an atheist. I cant say I have ever talked with an atheist before, but I find their logic somewhat interesting. Not because it is compelling, but rather because it seems self defeating. Our conversation centered around the concept of good and evil. This individual wholly believes in good and in evil, yet feels that it is his right to determine which is which. Now I totally believe in free agency, but obviously dont feel that it is anyone's right to determine what is good and what is evil. If each person actually got to choose what is good and what is evil, what would the outcome of society be?

On to the next point. Is it an unfair assumption to conclude that because an individual recognizes good and evil, regardless of what they decide good is or isnt, doesnt the mere existence of good and evil prove that there is a higher power? Lets not look at this from an LDS perspective, or even a Christian perspective. How about we look at this collectively as believers in a supreme being. If there was no supreme being, is it possible to still have good an evil? If you say yes, what actually makes something good and something evil? Is it a culture, a person, or...what?

For any of you that may be an atheist, or have more knowledge of the concept than I do, help me understand what would motivate an atheist to do anything other than pleasure themselves? What do they have to live for and what keeps them from running amok in society?

GOD is the author of chaos...though, many here would object to this statement. Nibley believes the same.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Everybody has a different set of morals and how far they will push them. The way you feel about doing something right is different then what somebody else would feel. For the general population yes you are correct, but not everybody feels that. Some people will just be happy they got the job.

Atheists "live their life like it matters" because they know it is their only one so they do as much as they can in their life. The reason they keep going is because no one wants to die(sane people). As LDS we know there will be an after life so we accept death with a smile, but no one wants to die. Most people even Atheists are good people who want to live a good life. Good and evil is subjective though based on the culture you were raised in. To most it is subjective but we know what good and evil really is as LDS.

I believe your assumption that an atheist would want to keep going because they don't want to die is correct. But that is not what we were talking about. We were talking about why they would want to live "good" lives over choosing "evil" pathways.

I realize that this is subjective but I disagree with your statement that most atheist are good people because I believe most people in general in this world are not "good." Most people (adults) in this world are okay with not keeping the Sabbath day holy for example. That is not "good."

But even if you think most atheist are "good" the question is why do you think they would choose "good" over "evil" methods to live their lives? I don't think the answer to that is that they don't want to die. I think it is because they feel the innate pleasure that comes from doing good. They just can't explain where that feeling comes from or don't want to acknowledge its source. In other words, they want to take credit for their own successes and that is evil. Satan wants people to think that they can be just like God without God's help. When people deny God's hand in all good things then they are trying to make themselves equal to God. Whether they realize that or not, that is what they are trying to do.

Or, it is simply "eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die" attitude which again is denying God's hand. And "eat, drink and be merry" ignores good versus evil motives all together. ... but we weren't talking about those people, we were talking about the ones that choose "good" even though they are atheist.

[Tyler90AZ]

I believe everybody is inherently born good and by good I mean follows our cultural beliefs what is good and evil or right and wrong. Everybody is born good with a natural inclination to do what is right. Though what shapes good and evil or right and wrong is our culture. So everybody is born good, but what is good is different to all. For instance around the world other people do things we see as taboo. Are they evil for it? I don't think so if we were put in that same situation we would be the same way.

As far as most people being good I actually agree with what your saying. We are all sinners, but when I say good I mean a productive member of society, not a criminal. Sorry for the bad word choice because they really aren't good in your sense because they are anti Christs.

I believe what makes them want to be good(my definition) is what Intrigued said."Atheists have goals, loved ones, careers, highs and lows, etc." To say these people are evil is not true they just don't understand the light.

[Onhech]

Religion is ethical code. You are right in the sense that an action in and of itself is not nessisarily evil or good act but instead the reasons you do that action. A good action done for the wrong reasons can be a sin, and I believe the antithesis is true also. But this does not mean that there is no such thing as good or evil, it is just that we cannot accurately evaluate an action to be good or evil because we do not have all the information.

We believe that God is going to judge us equally and justly according to what we did according to what we knew, and why we did it. We are told that we are not to judge for this reason, the only one that can judge another person accurately would be one who knew exactly what he did, what he knew, and why he did it. So Christ and God are the only righteous judges. We will all be judged on the same stick, there is no favoritism. For this to be possible there must be ethical solidity. There must be absolutes, formulae. Thus if there is judgment there must be absolutes so all scriptures point to absolutism.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Lynden Jensen

Check out my blog at

Know♣Justice

[Onhech]

Religion is ethical code. You are right in the sense that an action in and of itself is not nessisarily evil or good act but instead the reasons you do that action. A good action done for the wrong reasons can be a sin, and I believe the antithesis is true also. But this does not mean that there is no such thing as good or evil, it is just that we cannot accurately evaluate an action to be good or evil because we do not have all the information.

We believe that God is going to judge us equally and justly according to what we did according to what we knew, and why we did it. We are told that we are not to judge for this reason, the only one that can judge another person accurately would be one who knew exactly what he did, what he knew, and why he did it. So Christ and God are the only righteous judges. We will all be judged on the same stick, there is no favoritism. For this to be possible there must be ethical solidity. There must be absolutes, formulae. Thus if there is judgment there must be absolutes so all scriptures point to absolutism.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Lynden Jensen

Check out my blog at

Know♣Justice

[Onhech]

"There is nothing inherently good or evil even in religion (at least Christianity). Look at the OT, (Assuming you take a literal approach to the OT) look at how Nephi obtained the plates."

Religion is ethical code. You are right in the sense that an action in and of itself is not nessisarily evil or good act but instead the reasons you do that action. A good action done for the wrong reasons can be a sin, and I believe the antithesis is true also. But this does not mean that there is no such thing as good or evil, it is just that we cannot accurately evaluate an action to be good or evil because we do not have all the information.

We believe that God is going to judge us equally and justly according to what we did according to what we knew, and why we did it. We are told that we are not to judge for this reason, the only one that can judge another person accurately would be one who knew exactly what he did, what he knew, and why he did it. So Christ and God are the only righteous judges. We will all be judged on the same stick, there is no favoritism. For this to be possible there must be ethical solidity. There must be absolutes, formulae. Thus if there is judgment there must be absolutes so all scriptures point to absolutism.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Lynden Jensen

Check out my blog at

Know♣Justice

Edited May 13, 2010 by Onhech

[Hemidakota]

"There is nothing inherently good or evil even in religion (at least Christianity). Look at the OT, (Assuming you take a literal approach to the OT) look at how Nephi obtained the plates."

Religion is ethical code. You are right in the sense that an action in and of itself is not nessisarily evil or good act but instead the reasons you do that action. A good action done for the wrong reasons can be a sin, and I believe the antithesis is true also. But this does not mean that there is no such thing as good or evil, it is just that we cannot accurately evaluate an action to be good or evil because we do not have all the information.

We believe that God is going to judge us equally and justly according to what we did according to what we knew, and why we did it. We are told that we are not to judge for this reason, the only one that can judge another person accurately would be one who knew exactly what he did, what he knew, and why he did it. So Christ and God are the only righteous judges. We will all be judged on the same stick, there is no favoritism. For this to be possible there must be ethical solidity. There must be absolutes, formulae. Thus if there is judgment there must be absolutes so all scriptures point to absolutism.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Lynden Jensen

Check out my blog at

Know♣Justice

Lynden, the only disagreement I have here about the 'yardstick measurement and no favoritism', the one who died and atone for us, have that overriding factor, when it comes to cast judgment on individuals.

[Onhech]

I'm not entirely confident I know what your point is. If it is as I assume that

1)we cant make it into heaven on our own

2)only through Christ can make it to heaven

3) Christ holds judgement on whether we make it into heaven

4) Thus there is no yardstick measurement, and there is favoritism according to Christs desires.

Is that right?

If so then I would say God and Christ is the only righteous Judges. They measure on actions, and desires uniformly, if two men lived identical lives in thought and deed Christ would not send one to the Celestial kingdom and the other to the terrestrial. A partial judge is not Good judge. A partial God is not a God.

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Lynden Jensen

Check out my blog at

Know♣Justice

[MormonMama]

For any of you that may be an atheist, or have more knowledge of the concept than I do, help me understand what would motivate an atheist to do anything other than pleasure themselves? What do they have to live for and what keeps them from running amok in society?

I have a friend who is an atheist and I asked him a similar question once. His response was that we (humans) are supposed to be good to one another because the world would be chaos otherwise. I asked him what it mattered if there was nothing after this life? He said the whole purpose was for us to make the most out of this life precisely because it is all we get. I asked again, why? What is the point if when it's over there is nothing. Once I'm dead, I will have no knowledge or recollection (according to him) of what transpired in life, so what does it matter what I do?

For that matter, since I will eventually be forgotten at some point after my death (since everyone I know will be dead eventually and supposedly won't have any memory or consciousness afterward either), what does it matter how I treat anyone else? What stops me from doing whatever I want, regardless of how it affects others? In fact, if I WANT to be remembered by generations (and hence gain some type of immortality), it is in my best interest to do as much as I can to make myself memorable to as many people as possible in as spectacular a way as possible, either for good or bad (i.e. Hitler, Queen Elizabeth I, etc.). Again, his response was that we have an obligation to ourselves and our fellow humans to be decent human citizens. Again I asked why? What does it matter if we're all going to be non-existent after our deaths anyway?

He and I went round and round like that for quite awhile and never were able to get each other to see things from the other's perspective. I do know that if I did not believe in a power higher than myself, I would end up doing a lot of things that would hurt others, as I tend to be quite selfish by nature and am always fighting that. My love for my Father in Heaven causes me to desire to be a better person.

[justaname]

I have a friend who is an atheist and I asked him a similar question once. His response was that we (humans) are supposed to be good to one another because the world would be chaos otherwise. I asked him what it mattered if there was nothing after this life? He said the whole purpose was for us to make the most out of this life precisely because it is all we get. I asked again, why? What is the point if when it's over there is nothing. Once I'm dead, I will have no knowledge or recollection (according to him) of what transpired in life, so what does it matter what I do?

For that matter, since I will eventually be forgotten at some point after my death (since everyone I know will be dead eventually and supposedly won't have any memory or consciousness afterward either), what does it matter how I treat anyone else? What stops me from doing whatever I want, regardless of how it affects others? In fact, if I WANT to be remembered by generations (and hence gain some type of immortality), it is in my best interest to do as much as I can to make myself memorable to as many people as possible in as spectacular a way as possible, either for good or bad (i.e. Hitler, Queen Elizabeth I, etc.). Again, his response was that we have an obligation to ourselves and our fellow humans to be decent human citizens. Again I asked why? What does it matter if we're all going to be non-existent after our deaths anyway?

He and I went round and round like that for quite awhile and never were able to get each other to see things from the other's perspective. I do know that if I did not believe in a power higher than myself, I would end up doing a lot of things that would hurt others, as I tend to be quite selfish by nature and am always fighting that. My love for my Father in Heaven causes me to desire to be a better person.

How funny. . . this makes me wonder if we have the same friend. Our conversation was almost EXACTLY like that. I hate to admit it myself, but I can promise you I would not be the same person if I didnt believe in an afterlife. It is both the fear of a hell and the hope of a heaven that keeps me as close to the straight and narrow as I can.

[Intrigued]

I disagree. I think there is a difference between "get something better" versus the feeling one has knowing that they have done well.

If I obtain a job by submitting false information on a resume like a high gpa, I would feel less happy than if I had obtained the job by reporting true information and really getting the high gpa. Even thought the "getting something better" - a job was the same, the way it is obtained makes a difference.

Thanks for your response. I'll break things down and offer my opinion. I think it is obvious that there is a difference between 'earning' something and lying to get it. Obtaining your goals through hard work feels good.. for atheists and theists alike. There is absolutely zero difference in the two.

There is a feeling of happiness that comes from doing well and doing what is right. People that are atheist don't understand where that feeling comes from. They are still sons and daughters of God and so they still have similar reactions to what drives everyone, its just that they deny where those positive feelings come from.

I also don't understand how atheists as you say "live their life like it matters" and yet their belief suggests there is no purpose to this life, it doesn't make sense to me and I think they are simply confused. If a person believes that there is nothingness after this life than by definition after death nothing will matter to that person. So, their belief that what they are doing matters is just a momentary lie to themselves (according to their belief) to keep going. And if the core of what they believe is made up than anything they have to say about good and evil is just as prone to be made up.

Where do you think that feeling comes from? It certainly doesn't come from any possible Gods. On the topic of how atheists 'live their life like it matters' means exactly what it says.. they don't believe in a divine purpose in life.. yet life itself is precious, so they do their best not to waste their one shot at it. It's completely false to state that if a person believes that there is nothingness after death then nothing will matter to that person. There are many things that matter to nonbelievers.. leaving behind a better world so that people do not have to suffer, raising children and grandchildren, bettering themselves, etc

Im not aware of any species that exile a member for committing an evil act. Most evictions from their group are done to reduce competition amongst the males. I dont think that there is any awareness of good vs. evil, or code in the animal kingdom. Its strictly survival. (I admit Im not zoologist, but if anyone can prove me wrong, it would be a fascinating thing to learn about). I have a hard time believing that humans would behave any differently if we collective we had no knowledge or belief of a supreme being.

homo sapiens do it I'm of the opinion that survival is the reason behind the idea of good and evil anyways. Good acts help the pack, evil acts hurt the pack. It goes back to Maslow's hierarchy of needs.. even in the animal kingdom.

Ever seen an albino squirrel shunned because he's different? There are tons of cases of animals running off a pack member for whatever reason.. animals are far more 'human' than people give them credit for. One of my dogs snapped at my cousin (toddler) one time and my other dog forced it into the cage and wouldn't let it out until my cousin left.

Of course Atheists have loved ones, careers, and goals. I dont see how that correlates to good vs. evil. Im interested in how they determine good vs. evil. I think the easy answer to that question is that they interpret good and evil based on their culture. The more difficult thing to answer is if they believe in things that are inherently evil or good. If an act is inherently good or evil, that would mean it transcends any cultural influence. So, what makes something inherently good or evil if there is no supreme being?

Also, the concept of living life like it matters because you only get one try, makes me think that one would be more prone to indulge in things that we god-fearing people would recognize as sin. Total speculation, I know.

They determine good and evil based on their culture as you mentioned. I think it's important to recognize that the idea of good or evil could indeed transcend cultural influence.. without the need for a higher power. There are obvious evolutionary advantages to the pack mentality. Humans are 'pack animals' after all.

The atheists have loved ones and careers comments was directed at the 'what makes atheists tick' statement in the OP.

[Intrigued]

I have a friend who is an atheist and I asked him a similar question once. His response was that we (humans) are supposed to be good to one another because the world would be chaos otherwise. I asked him what it mattered if there was nothing after this life? He said the whole purpose was for us to make the most out of this life precisely because it is all we get. I asked again, why? What is the point if when it's over there is nothing. Once I'm dead, I will have no knowledge or recollection (according to him) of what transpired in life, so what does it matter what I do?

For that matter, since I will eventually be forgotten at some point after my death (since everyone I know will be dead eventually and supposedly won't have any memory or consciousness afterward either), what does it matter how I treat anyone else? What stops me from doing whatever I want, regardless of how it affects others? In fact, if I WANT to be remembered by generations (and hence gain some type of immortality), it is in my best interest to do as much as I can to make myself memorable to as many people as possible in as spectacular a way as possible, either for good or bad (i.e. Hitler, Queen Elizabeth I, etc.). Again, his response was that we have an obligation to ourselves and our fellow humans to be decent human citizens. Again I asked why? What does it matter if we're all going to be non-existent after our deaths anyway?

He and I went round and round like that for quite awhile and never were able to get each other to see things from the other's perspective. I do know that if I did not believe in a power higher than myself, I would end up doing a lot of things that would hurt others, as I tend to be quite selfish by nature and am always fighting that. My love for my Father in Heaven causes me to desire to be a better person.

Social constructs make it matter. As I stated in the post above.. the pack/tribal mentality drives us because we are animals and evolved those instincts. You, your friend, myself, and everyone else are all free to act out and do whatever we want.. but make no mistake that there are consequences to your actions.

In a debate.. it's up to you to 'prove' that life has a meaning. All he had to ask was for you to prove it and that would have pretty much shut down the entire conversation. Otherwise the 'life exists without a divine meaning' argument looks pretty strong.

Edited May 14, 2010 by Intrigued

[Moksha]

Otherwise the 'life exists without a divine meaning' argument looks pretty strong.

Only if you dispute the inherent goodness of ice cold Coca-Cola existing in the forest by itself. Otherwise, how could this existance without meaning lead to both enlightenment and a delightful aftertaste?

[Intrigued]

Only if you dispute the inherent goodness of ice cold Coca-Cola existing in the forest by itself. Otherwise, how could this existance without meaning lead to both enlightenment and a delightful aftertaste?

I prefer Pepsi products