Evolution, The Gospel, Science

[Snow]

I think that also supports the idea that Jesus was the only begotten son of God, meaning the only son born of God in the flesh. Whereas Adam was not born, and therefore cannot be begotten by definition. Adam's body being created instead of born disqualifies him from being begotten in the flesh.

Are you claiming that Adam was not born or are you just saying that it's an idea you have in your head that may or may not be correct?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Are you claiming that Adam was not born or are you just saying that it's an idea you have in your head that may or may not be correct?

I don't claim that because I know what you will say next ... where is the proof? I don't have any more proof than you do that he was born, so yes it is an idea. It's an idea based in how I see the origin of man through the little information we get from scriptures combined with the little information we have from science. (... I said "how" not why or if it did or did not happen)

The way I see it is that there is no need for Adam to be "born" any more than your future perfected body needs to be "born." And I am using the term "born" as what happens following two gametes, one from each parent, come together through conception forming a zygote and 9 months of gestation in the mother's womb, born. As opposed to arranging molecules to form organic substrate from which a perfectly aligned set of chromosomes could be made and culturing and nurturing with all that is needed to form a physical being ready to receive a spirit (whatever that process is). And that process could incorporate parts of evolution to prepare some of that organic substrate.

Where did I get such a crazy idea you ask? It comes from knowing that God will make an immortal body for all who pass through this life even though their mortal body has turned to dust many many years ago. Which for most LDS is not a crazy idea. But, yes, it is just an idea that may or may not be correct.

[Intrigued]

The way I see it is that there is no need for Adam to be "born" any more than your future perfected body needs to be "born." And I am using the term "born" as what happens following two gametes, one from each parent, come together through conception forming a zygote and 9 months of gestation in the mother's womb, born. As opposed to arranging molecules to form organic substrate from which a perfectly aligned set of chromosomes could be made and culturing and nurturing with all that is needed to form a physical being ready to receive a spirit (whatever that process is). And that process could incorporate parts of evolution to prepare some of that organic substrate.

Where did I get such a crazy idea you ask? It comes from knowing that God will make an immortal body for all who pass through this life even though their mortal body has turned to dust many many years ago. Which for most LDS is not a crazy idea. But, yes, it is just an idea that may or may not be correct.

I thought it was LDS doctrine that Adam, Eve, Jesus, you, I, Moses, and everyone else was literally born.. even God himself? Either the founder of your Church was wrong.. or you are Unless of course God has no belly button and he was brought to life.. from magic or some other form of nonsense.

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!"

-Joseph Smith

Edited May 27, 2010 by Intrigued

[Hemidakota]

I don't claim that because I know what you will say next ... where is the proof? I don't have any more proof than you do that he was born, so yes it is an idea. It's an idea based in how I see the origin of man through the little information we get from scriptures combined with the little information we have from science. (... I said "how" not why or if it did or did not happen)

The way I see it is that there is no need for Adam to be "born" any more than your future perfected body needs to be "born." And I am using the term "born" as what happens following two gametes, one from each parent, come together through conception forming a zygote and 9 months of gestation in the mother's womb, born. As opposed to arranging molecules to form organic substrate from which a perfectly aligned set of chromosomes could be made and culturing and nurturing with all that is needed to form a physical being ready to receive a spirit (whatever that process is). And that process could incorporate parts of evolution to prepare some of that organic substrate.

Where did I get such a crazy idea you ask? It comes from knowing that God will make an immortal body for all who pass through this life even though their mortal body has turned to dust many many years ago. Which for most LDS is not a crazy idea. But, yes, it is just an idea that may or may not be correct.

You are right. Our own understanding is nearing a point now to understand how to create and mold life forms. More I read on the latest bio-tech in our own local backyard, we shall see organic life be molded and shaped to what ever we please. Yet, for me, this is a story that we all need to seek an answer for a divine purpose.

Something unique happened today. I was awaken out of REM sleep this morning around 02:48am and felt the promptings and a brief direction, the understanding of four sentences within a chapter of Genesis concerning Adam in the garden (see Genesis); giving edification for those who 'eyes are open' to this chronicle of life beginnings.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Hemidakota

[Seminarysnoozer]

I thought it was LDS doctrine that Adam, Eve, Jesus, you, I, Moses, and everyone else was literally born.. even God himself? Either the founder of your Church was wrong.. or you are Unless of course God has no belly button and he was brought to life.. from magic or some other form of nonsense.

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!"

-Joseph Smith

The body does not bring forth life, the spirit does. You and I and everyone else were already alive also before our bodies existed.

[Hemidakota]

A mere shell that houses our spirit.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Hemidakota

[Seminarysnoozer]

A mere shell that houses the our spirit.

Worse than that, it blinds our real self, it overpowers the spirit and makes us think that the physical is more important than the spirit. The physical wants us to worship the physical and so we try to find some divine quality to the corrupted body as if it has some ounce of significance compared to the importance of the spirit and spiritual development. Sure, we should treat the body like a temple but that is only because it is a doorway to permanent effects on the spirit. The physical body worries about self, like everything in nature, survival and self importance which is the opposite direction to Christ' gospel. The intellectual and the scholarly mind is just as risky as the rich man because it says "I know" and "I am smarter than most" to the point of ignoring the spiritual knowledge that for most barely shines through. Some may have won the battle to some degree in this life but I suspect for the majority the carnal influences are mostly in command.

The body has to be that way though to create the test. If the body was just a shell that would be like taking an open text book exam. Knowing that, I have no need to call this fallen body a direct offspring of God because I know that things of God lead to light and truth and understanding. I don't see how anyone can say that the mortal body is of divine ancestry (which is different than saying it was created by God or is a gift of God) at the same time they say that the natural man is an enemy to God. The immortal body may be different as we will rest from the toils of this world, we won't have to fight that pulling away from what is spiritual. And the immortal body may be of divine ancestry, I don't know.

[Hemidakota]

I will post more later as I gather scriptural facts as given earlier this morning, when I was awaken, about our "DIVINE ANCESTRY." I believe, I finally find what I was seeking to fill-in the missing piece. This is why I believe, you should not dismiss this notion.

[Intrigued]

The body does not bring forth life, the spirit does. You and I and everyone else were already alive also before our bodies existed.

Yes, but we were also born. The same as everyone else who has ever had a body.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Yes, but we were also born. The same as everyone else who has ever had a body.

That may not be entirely true depending on what you believe about stillbirths or miscarriages for that matter. At what point does the spirit enter the body? Some, like Brigham Young would say at the moment the mother feels a quickening. If that is the case and then the child is a stillbirth, that person had a body but was not born. That spirit will have claim to a body but was never born. Some believe the spirit does not enter the body until they take their first breath. Sounds like you would go with that idea as you believe that birth is required to have a body. So, it probably wouldn't be to much of a problem for a person who believes that to be okay with abortion, even third trimester abortion.

As a mother, I believe the spirit enters the body well before they are born, but that is just my experience.

[Intrigued]

That may not be entirely true depending on what you believe about stillbirths or miscarriages for that matter. At what point does the spirit enter the body? Some, like Brigham Young would say at the moment the mother feels a quickening. If that is the case and then the child is a stillbirth, that person had a body but was not born. That spirit will have claim to a body but was never born. Some believe the spirit does not enter the body until they take their first breath. Sounds like you would go with that idea as you believe that birth is required to have a body. So, it probably wouldn't be to much of a problem for a person who believes that to be okay with abortion, even third trimester abortion.

As a mother, I believe the spirit enters the body well before they are born, but that is just my experience.

So instead of saying 'born', I should say.. at one point in time we were all a fetus Stillborn children are not included in Church records though.. which is interesting.

[Seminarysnoozer]

So instead of saying 'born', I should say.. at one point in time we were all a fetus Stillborn children are not included in Church records though.. which is interesting.

I am curious what you think about the immortal body your spirit will someday get, how is that made? For discussion purposes, lets say a spirit stays in spirit paradise for over a 1000 years, at least plenty of time for that individuals mortal body to turn back to dust, and maybe even some of those molecules were incorporated into another individuals body through the cycle of life, how is God going to make that permanent immortal body?

Does that body have to be a fetus first? And if that is the case, the spirit would enter it as a fetus? I don't think so. What is your view on that?

[Intrigued]

I am curious what you think about the immortal body your spirit will someday get, how is that made? For discussion purposes, lets say a spirit stays in spirit paradise for over a 1000 years, at least plenty of time for that individuals mortal body to turn back to dust, and maybe even some of those molecules were incorporated into another individuals body through the cycle of life, how is God going to make that permanent immortal body?

Does that body have to be a fetus first? And if that is the case, the spirit would enter it as a fetus? I don't think so. What is your view on that?

If I were LDS I would say that the person receiving the 'immortal body' would need the blueprints to their house so to speak. I would think that the important part is that they were at one time a fetus (or whatever) containing all of the necessary information. Joseph Smith was very clear that God was once a human as we are now. Christ was born, God was born, Noah was born..

Some of them were even born more than once per the founder of the LDS Church.

Edited May 29, 2010 by Intrigued

[Seminarysnoozer]

If I were LDS I would say that the person receiving the 'immortal body' would need the blueprints to their house so to speak. I would think that the important part is that they were at one time a fetus (or whatever) containing all of the necessary information. Joseph Smith was very clear that God was once a human as we are now. Christ was born, God was born, Noah was born..

Some of them were even born more than once per the founder of the LDS Church.

Born spiritually and born physically and reborn in Christ (baptism), is that what you mean?

[Hemidakota]

Some of them were even born more than once per the founder of the LDS Church.

Where is the reference for this statement?

[Justice]

I am curious what you think about the immortal body your spirit will someday get, how is that made? For discussion purposes, lets say a spirit stays in spirit paradise for over a 1000 years, at least plenty of time for that individuals mortal body to turn back to dust, and maybe even some of those molecules were incorporated into another individuals body through the cycle of life, how is God going to make that permanent immortal body?

Does that body have to be a fetus first? And if that is the case, the spirit would enter it as a fetus? I don't think so. What is your view on that?

Good question.

My answer is I don't know.

What I do know is that you must be born on earth in order to be resurrected. How the resurrection takes place has not been revealed as far as I have seen.

My theory is that all lesser elements must obey greater. I believe it has something to do with our mastering our physical body. Eventually we will be able to speak and those elements must obey, and form our physical body. Until we learn how to do it for ourselves, Christ will do it for us.

I know that leaves more questions than it answers, but that's how it fits into my little brain.

Many people think that the resurrection means your body will be joined to your spirit forever, literally. I like to think of it more like an eternal marriage between husband and wife. They are bound eternally, but does not mean they have to be at each other's side, or stuck to each other for eternity. I think of the resurrection as more of a learned, granted, abiltity, as opposed to a one time event.

I may be way off base, but it would explain a lot of things, for instance, like how Jesus appeared in a closed, locked room, and how resurrected beings can travel faster than the speed of light, or in the twinkling of an eye.

This isn't a wild, hair-brained idea that I came up with not having studied, pondered, or prayed. I could be wrong, but this is my current belief.

[Intrigued]

Where is the reference for this statement?

Well, logical conclusion tbh.. look at Michael the Archangel. Adam did not become Michael.. Michael became Adam, who was born somewhere. Unless Michael had never lived before.. it seems that he would have been born much like you and I, especially considering the station he held/holds (angel). LDS claim to know where 'angels' come from, too.. which imo may strengthen my argument provided I'm not missing any glaring details.

That's my take on it at least. I may admittedly be wrong.. but then that would raise some other questions that are much more entertaining. :)

"My Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself."

Edited June 2, 2010 by Intrigued

[marianomarini]

Is Jesus resurrected as fetus or whatsoever? And Moroni and all the other "resurrected beings" are they? Where was they rise to adult state before appearing to man?

Just few questions to reason on.

[Hemidakota]

Have you seen Moroni? I have yet to meet any person who seen a ministering being still resemble a child.

I would be glad, if GOD would turn back the clock on aging when we are resurrected.

[JohnnyRudick]

I believe our natural state of appearance when we are in our final resurrected state will be in the similitude of a 32/33 year old.

A personal belief please don't ask me for references as I do not have any;-)

Edited June 12, 2010 by JohnnyRudick
Can't believe I spelled our - are:-/

[mikbone]

Is Jesus resurrected as fetus or whatsoever?

Ricky Bobby: Dear Lord baby Jesus, lyin' there in your ghost manger, just lookin' at your Baby Einstein developmental videos, learnin' 'bout shapes and colors. I would like to thank you for bringin' me and my mama together, and also that my kids no longer sound like retarded gang-bangers.

[Hemidakota]

I believe are natural state of appearance when we are in our final resurrected state will be in the similitude of a 32/33 year old.

A personal belief please don't ask me for references as I do not have any;-)

I believe it is alot earlier than 30ish age group. I would settle for mid 20ish.

[Over43]

When I get resurrected, I want the hair I have now, Robert Redford's teeth, and Arnold Schwarzenegger's physique when he was 32/33.

I'm just not sure how that would work out?

[Seminarysnoozer]

I believe are natural state of appearance when we are in our final resurrected state will be in the similitude of a 32/33 year old.

A personal belief please don't ask me for references as I do not have any;-)

I've heard many people say that too. As Christ was an unblemished perfect sacrifice at that age, but I wonder if he lived to be 100 would he have really aged much? (Maybe this is where that whole 1000 years to one year comes into play.) And maybe his 33 is like our 20, as He probably didn't age much given his half perfect body genes.

The other thing is that we take on the image of our creator if we are so fortunate to make it into the Celestial Kingdom, just like Christ has his likeness now. So, really we want the body of a bazillion, gazillion ... year old man. Have any of these resurrected beings that have come back have anything other than white hair?

For those that want to have a different image, there is a place for that, the Telestial kingdom, as the body of the stars differ one from another.

[Hemidakota]

I've heard many people say that too. As Christ was an unblemished perfect sacrifice at that age, but I wonder if he lived to be 100 would he have really aged much? (Maybe this is where that whole 1000 years to one year comes into play.) And maybe his 33 is like our 20, as He probably didn't age much given his half perfect body genes.

The other thing is that we take on the image of our creator if we are so fortunate to make it into the Celestial Kingdom, just like Christ has his likeness now. So, really we want the body of a bazillion, gazillion ... year old man. Have any of these resurrected beings that have come back have anything other than white hair?

For those that want to have a different image, there is a place for that, the Telestial kingdom, as the body of the stars differ one from another.

Being part GOD and part human, can we adjust the 1000-years to 500-years? Just kidding.

Yes, people have recorded two different visionary Saviors but not the FATHER. How many people witnessed the Savior in glory and then without His glory? The notable difference is the imperfection nail prints, a darker pigmentation completion, hazel nut hair, no notable facial or neck winkles or blemish can be seen. How this is done, is still beyond me.

What is not talked about, anything less than, the highest state in the Celestial Kingdom is the notable knowledge levels differences.

Edited June 3, 2010 by Hemidakota