Did Adam and Eve knew of the Plan in the Garden?

[martybess]

Corrupted to me does not equal evil, just to be clear. To me it just means not perfect. And believe me, after 4 children and 2 miscarriages having children in this world is corrupted. "16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children;" Having children the way we do is absolutely part of the corrupted world. The privilege of participating in bringing a child of God into this world is a part of the process but the mechanics of it I believe is very corrupted and likely as God's proclamation to the woman suggests started with the fall. ... note the words "I will greatly ..."

I really hope having children in the afterlife, the process of birthing (not the rest of it) is nothing like it is here because I can't imagine going through that over and over, without end.

Child birth is the closet thing to what the Savior had to do in the garden in a way. It's willingly submitting oneself to the law of sacrifice (think of the temple) for in the worse case the woman could die during childbirth. It's corrupted and can be deadly as was the experience of the atonement for the Savior both indeed needed for HF work to progress.

[Horus_53]

About the curse on Lucifer. It is apparent that Lucifer acted on his own - rather than at the express will of the Father. That's the crux of Lucifer's disobedient nature. It doesn't matter that the action was performed on 'other worlds'. What mattered was that the action on those 'other worlds' was performed at the Father's command and or as He would have done. Lucifer was being disingenuous in his reply.

Contrast this action with the nature of the Savior, which was to do the will of the Father. The Father and Jesus acted of the same will and God had confidence that Jesus would do His will.

Lucifer clearly acted of his own will - and that made all the difference.

[martybess]

It doesn't matter that the action was performed on 'other worlds'.

I'm not so sure it was done in other worlds. Are we taking this at face value or are we to look at it symbolically somehow? Like a rib being taken from Adam to form woman for we know did not happen.

[Hemidakota]

Look at it for face value from the Book fo Genesis, if GOD stated HE would 'multiply thy conception [birthing conditions], we can clearly see, conception is already presented and part of the female anatomy before adding an extra condition to it. Right?

Regarding to other earths, would not GOD ‘use the same play' but with different actors to fill the roles, to ensure a higher probability for the same outcome? Adding two cents here...

3:16 - Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Edited May 26, 2010 by Hemidakota

[martybess]

Look at it for face value from the Book fo Genesis, if GOD stated HE would 'multiply thy conception [birthing conditions], we can clearly see, conception is already presented and part of the female anatomy before adding an extra condition to it. Right?

Regarding to other earths, would not GOD ‘use the same play' but with different actors to fill the roles, to ensure a higher probability for the same outcome? Adding two cents here...

3:16 - Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Yes I agree with the above Hemi.... what I was referring to was the comment that satan made about giving them fruit as done in other worlds. I don't believe a word satan says, he's a liar. Is he trying to talk his way out of something he just done or what? I don't know.

[Hemidakota]

Personally, I believe Lucifer was complaining about this, "Look FATHER, I have been doing this thing in giving the forbidden fruit to both Adams and you did nothing. So why now?" Why didn't FATHER stop Him on the first world when he applied this approach, was his complaint.

There is more than one world HE is dealing with...even if it is not part of our salvation too know it.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Look at it for face value from the Book fo Genesis, if GOD stated HE would 'multiply thy conception [birthing conditions], we can clearly see, conception is already presented and part of the female anatomy before adding an extra condition to it. Right?

Regarding to other earths, would not GOD ‘use the same play' but with different actors to fill the roles, to ensure a higher probability for the same outcome? Adding two cents here...

3:16 - Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

That is not as "clearly" seen as you say. If you use the same reasoning you are applying to the word 'conception' then you would also have to apply it to the word sorrow which is also being affected by the verb multiply. Then you would be saying that they had sorrow also before the fall. You really believe that? I know you don't believe they had sorrow in paradise.

Secondly, at that point they had already fallen and had enough time to have their eyes open, realizing their anatomy and their capability enough to make aprons to cover this new found anatomy. They even walked around the garden for a while, who knows how long before God confronted them. So the I will greatly multiply is referring to her current anatomy.

And, this is just my twist on those words but I see that statement as something to the effect of God saying I will greatly multiply thy sorrow but at the same time I will greatly multiply your desire to have children (conception) enough to overcome the sorrow that comes with it and your desire will be towards your husband also enough to overcome the sorrow that comes with bearing children.

[Hemidakota]

Interesting take...thanks

[Traveler]

As has been said, they may very well have been taught about the fall, but it was impossible to understand without experience.

How could they even understand death and ultimate sacrifice as immortal? How could they have understood the need to offer sacrifice until after they fell?

It takes a lot of quiet contemplation and pondering to imagine what it may have been like for them before and after the fall. It's like us trying to understand eternity now, they could not understand something that was finite or that ended. What did it mean to them that Jehova would be born (they were innocent and did not understand) and then die (they were immortal and had no understanding of death).

Although they may have been taught the words, they were beyond their grasp.

Justice: I have thought about this post for some time. I am trying to grasp what you are implying. How can we appriciate G-d the Father beyond a faint experience of prayer. How can we know murder and adultry are evil until we have murdered or commited adultry?

I believe that we made knowledgable choices in the pre-existance to follow and accept the plan of salvation before we had any experience of mortality. In fact now that we are experiencing mortality it appears to me we have less knowledge of the plan (a vail of forgitfullness) than we did before we were born.

The Traveler

[martybess]

Justice: How can we know murder and adultry are evil until we have murdered or commited adultry?

Is it that we are not to know.... or rather a better word would be experience some evils and never was it intended that we know them. But we could not know the experiences of this life without the fall and thus experience it for ourselves and that there was not other way?

[Seminarysnoozer]

I do not think Adam and Eve understood the fall. Some time later, much after leaving the garden, Adam is offering sacrifice and when questioned by an angel he had no idea why. This is basic plan of salvation 101 stuff.

I think some are way over speculating.

The Traveler

I think there is a misconception that eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil somehow made Adam and Eve more knowledgeable about everything and that is not what happened. It only opened their eyes to the very beginning of experiencing the forces of good and evil. Their knowledge, just like what happened to all of us, fell. I don't know how far it fell but I would say very very far. I think they understood way more before the fall than they ever did while in this existence. And when they returned to God's presence that knowledge returned, after the veil was removed, and back to their previous full understanding like what they had in the garden before the fall returned with added experience. What they knew in the garden was way more than what we are given in this life. I believe.

[Justice]

To me innocence is not ignorance. Innocence relates more to lack of experience than it does knowledge.

I agree. But, lack of knowledge is a natural consequence of the lack of experience. There are many teens who think they know all about something when they simply gain knowledge of it, then learn later that they really didn't understand it at all after experience.

I think we agree, for the most part. I just like to encourage people to take time and ponder about what it must have been like for Adam and Eve, not having the knowledge of good and evil (by the way, that is knowledge of, not experience of).

Being in a state of innocence would alter your perception and reality.

[Justice]

Justice: I have thought about this post for some time. I am trying to grasp what you are implying. How can we appriciate G-d the Father beyond a faint experience of prayer. How can we know murder and adultry are evil until we have murdered or commited adultry?

I believe that we made knowledgable choices in the pre-existance to follow and accept the plan of salvation before we had any experience of mortality. In fact now that we are experiencing mortality it appears to me we have less knowledge of the plan (a vail of forgitfullness) than we did before we were born.

The Traveler

Good points, as always.

I guess I just assume that Adam and Eve passed through some veil when they were born as well. If they were born as infants, they had to re-learn many things, just as we had to.

Many of my beliefs and opinions hinge on Adam and Eve being born.

I believe we made choices in the pre-mortal existence. But, for us to know what it was like to be outside Father's presence, in a body of flesh and bone (or blood) was impossible. Many did not need the experience. Many refused to partake in the experience. But, for most who are born here, this experience was necessary.

I believe we were taught and prepared as much as was possible. But, Adam and Eve truly had their eyes open and "became as [God]" when they partook of the forbidden fruit.

[Hemidakota]

How can one receive 'experience' from a simple forbidden fruit Justice [curiosity here]?

[Seminarysnoozer]

I agree. But, lack of knowledge is a natural consequence of the lack of experience. There are many teens who think they know all about something when they simply gain knowledge of it, then learn later that they really didn't understand it at all after experience.

I think we agree, for the most part. I just like to encourage people to take time and ponder about what it must have been like for Adam and Eve, not having the knowledge of good and evil (by the way, that is knowledge of, not experience of).

Being in a state of innocence would alter your perception and reality.

Thanks. These things are hard to quantify, unless there has been some view of the other side without the veil. Like Moses said after seeing the difference in our level of understanding, Man is nothing. There is obvious value to experience and knowledge of good and evil otherwise we wouldn't be here but in comparison to the quantity of knowledge lost by taking on this fallen state and having the veil it's a small amount. The net sum of knowledge lost versus knowledge gained while still being behind the veil is far far in the negative, at least that's the way I see it.

There are so many scriptures that imply seeing things through spiritual eyes is a faster way to learn than through the eyes of man. And that man alone in this state could never reach an understanding of God's ways without divine intervention.

I appreciate your 'by the way', because I see it that way too, I just didn't express it well ... I'll throw one more 'by the way' back at you .... By the way, we are told to maintain our innocence, to maintain that perception and reality. :)

[mikbone]

The Veil

I think that the idea of the veil as it has been used in this thread varies from user to user so much that confusion has resulted. It has anyway for myself.

When I think of the veil I think of an actual physical barrier / ordinance that one passes through.

1) When we leave the pre-mortal existence we pass through this barrier and lose our memories (but curiously not our personalities)

2) When someone has their calling and election made sure they actually enter the veil and are re-acquainted with their pre-mortal memories. See Ether 3: 13-15.

3) One can be temporarily pulled through the veil and then re-veiled.

4) A person can see God and not have been brought through the Veil. For example Cain, 14 year old Joseph Smith.

5) Only those persons that enter the Veil will receive their pre-mortal memories, thus anyone that does not attain the Celestial Kingdom will not be privy to their pre-mortal memories.

Adam & Eve were obviously Veiled. They did not possess their pre-mortal memories while they were in Eden. Yet they were sinless and thus were still able to abide in God's presence. When they transgressed and fell they were then separated from God. They were exposed to God for I assume many years prior to the fall and they must have been extremely intelligent and taught by the best teacher of all time. They were obviously taught about the Gospel.

But I believe that Adam had no idea that by partaking of the forbidden fruit that he was condemning Jehovah to the Atonement.

Edited May 28, 2010 by mikbone

[Seminarysnoozer]

The Veil

I think that the idea of the veil as it has been used in this thread varies from user to user so much that confusion has resulted. It has anyway for myself.

When I think of the veil I think of an actual physical barrier / ordinance that one passes through.

1) When we leave the pre-mortal existence we pass through this barrier and lose our memories (but curiously not our personalities)

2) When someone has their calling and election made sure they actually enter the veil and are re-acquainted with their pre-mortal memories. See Ether 3: 13-15.

3) One can be temporarily pulled through the veil and then re-veiled.

4) A person can see God and not have been brought through the Veil. For example Cain, 14 year old Joseph Smith.

5) Only those persons that enter the Veil will receive their pre-mortal memories, thus anyone that does not attain the Celestial Kingdom will not be privy to their pre-mortal memories.

Adam & Eve were obviously Veiled. They did not possess their pre-mortal memories while they were in Eden. Yet they were sinless and thus were still able to abide in God's presence. When they transgressed and fell they were then separated from God. They were exposed to God for I assume many years prior to the fall and they must have been extremely intelligent and taught by the best teacher of all time. They were obviously taught about the Gospel.

But I believe that Adam had no idea that by partaking of the forbidden fruit that he was condemning Jehovah to the Atonement.

I think the veil and the mortal body are fairly synonymous. When things are seen outside the veil, the body is transfigured or it is in a dream, etc.

How do you know personalities are not changed by the veil? How could you know that? Do you think Moses had a problem speaking in front of groups before this life? Most of what we call personality is made up by the wiring of the brain, whether a person is right brained or left brained etc. Read the story of Phenius Gage. His personality changed after a frontal lobe injury. Or do you think the injury also injured his spirit? When people have Alzheimer's disease, their personality changes, or does that disease also disease the spirit then if the personality remains the same? Personalities are part of the talents given in this life, like the parable of the 10 talents. They are given, meaning we didn't have them before and we will be judged according to what we have been given, not based on what we had before this life. The only personality trait that I think remains to some degree is valiance but we would have no outward way of measuring that because you would have no idea where that person started in life to determine how valiant they really are. I suppose it depends on what you think personality is, whether a person is shy or outgoing, whether they like math or music, whether they like violence or butterflies, whether they are attracted to alcohol or risk taking or like sports or sewing or attracted to the same sex or opposite ... all of those things to me are part of the set of circumstances given to us (the wiring of our brain mostly and partly nurture) in this world to create specific tests that may or may not correlate linearly with our personalities before.

How could Adam have no idea that the fall would result in the need for a Savior when we know he kept his first estate? He chose God's plan over Satan's. Or you think he just went along with it not knowing what he chose?

[mikbone]

How do you know personalities are not changed by the veil? How could you know that?

From personal experience, 9 kids. They come with their personalities intact.

From scripture:

Cain Moses 5:24 For from this time forth thou shalt be the father of his lies; thou shalt be called Perdition; for thou wast also before the world.

Abraham 3: 23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

As to the comment of Phineus Gage, He was lobotomized by that iron rod that was rammed through his head. Im no neurologist but I do have a medical background. Phineus' real personality was displayed before the accident. After the accident his body / brain was damaged. His spirit was not changed but the brain was diseased and it interfered with his true personality.

Finally, Adam knew that there would be consequences to the fall. But he had no idea that Jehovah (whom I believe he came to know and love during his time in the garden), was going to have to pass through the events of Gethsemane.

Edited May 28, 2010 by mikbone

[Seminarysnoozer]

From personal experience, 9 kids. They come with their personalities intact.

From scripture:

Cain Moses 5:24 For from this time forth thou shalt be the father of his lies; thou shalt be called Perdition; for thou wast also before the world.

Abraham 3: 23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

I said I think the only thing that remains is how valiant they were (probably didn't read the whole thing - I know I get a little wordy sometimes). The examples you gave relate to how valiant they were or how "good" they were but I don't see that as "personality."

And if you can see back before this life to what your kids personalities were like before they were born, wow! more power to you. My veil is much thicker than yours I suppose. I've never heard anyone claim that before.

If you are just saying that all kids have different personalities, yes I mentioned that too, we are all wired differently which starts about the 6th to 8th week of gestation so we come out with different propensities. And then nurture molds that a little more but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is a mirror image of their spiritual self.

The most humble and meek servant in this life may have been the most enthusiastic and vocal leaders in the war in heaven. I don't think it correlates that specifically and there are probably various unknown reasons why we have certain "personalities" in this life. I would imagine Moses now doesn't have trouble speaking in front of groups, that that was just his earthly "personality."

[Seminarysnoozer]

As to the comment of Phineus Gage, He was lobotomized by that iron rod that was rammed through his head. Im no neurologist but I do have a medical background. Phineus' real personality was displayed before the accident. After the accident his body / brain was damaged. His spirit was not changed but the brain was diseased and it interfered with his true personality.

Finally, Adam knew that there would be consequences to the fall. But he had no idea that Jehovah (whom I believe he came to know and love during his time in the garden), was going to have to pass through the events of Gethsemane.

Exactly, I use that as an example of how much more influential our bodies are on our personalities than the spirit ... like you said his spirit was not changed but his injured brain interfered with his personality. So where does personality come from in this existence, mostly from the body.

It amazes me how you know the mind of Adam before the fall, to know that would be the same as saying that you have no veil at all because that was Adam's circumstance before the fall. Maybe that is true, I don't know you, but that would be amazing. He may not have appreciated the significance of these events in terms of real life experiences, like knowing what it is like to suffer and feel grief and guilt etc. But that does not mean that he did not know the full plan of salvation, that with a fall we need a savior and that he stood next to Jesus when He said send me.

[mikbone]

Exactly, I use that as an example of how much more influential our bodies are on our personalities than the spirit ... like you said his spirit was not changed but his injured brain interfered with his personality. So where does personality come from in this existence, mostly from the body.

I think you miss-understand me. I believe that the personality comes from the spirit.

It amazes me how you know the mind of Adam before the fall, to know that would be the same as saying that you have no veil at all because that was Adam's circumstance before the fall. Maybe that is true, I don't know you, but that would be amazing. He may not have appreciated the significance of these events in terms of real life experiences, like knowing what it is like to suffer and feel grief and guilt etc. But that does not mean that he did not know the full plan of salvation, that with a fall we need a savior and that he stood next to Jesus when He said send me.

I never claimed to know the mind of Adam... And Im not trying to win an argument...

I do love Adam though. I think that he was the most selfless man that lived. I believe that he partook of the tree of knowledge of good and evil because he did not want Eve to suffer being alone. Essentially he was willing to die just so Eve would have companionship. I do not think that he partook of the fruit knowing that he was going to condemn Jehovah to bleed from every pore.

And based upon Ether 3: 13-15. I believe that no one prior to Mahonri made the connection that God (Jehovah) was the person who would actually perform the atonement.

I also believe that the angel mentioned in Luke 22:43 was Michael.

[Hemidakota]

22:43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

It could either Michael [Adam] or Gabriel [Noah]. But then again, it could have been Jerahmeel [Joseph Smith].

The last being first, the first being last: arch-angel

D&C 88:112 And Michael, the seventh angel, even the archangel, shall gather together his armies, even the hosts of heaven. [Elder Mark E. Petersen, Adam, the Archangel, Ensign (CR), November 1980, p.16]

07 Michael (Adam)

06 Gabriel (Noah)

05 Raphael

04 Uriel

03 Raquel

02 Sariel (Peter)

01 Jerahmeel (Joseph Smith)

Edited May 28, 2010 by Hemidakota

[mikbone]

22:43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

It could either Michael [Adam] or Gabriel [Noah]. But then again, it could have been Jerahmeel [Joseph Smith].

Sure, could have been. Could have been Moses, or Abraham, or Heavenly Mother, or <insert name here>.

I can think of a specific reason why Michael would be significant though.

[Hemidakota]

I would give credence to Gabriel, absent of having the Savior here, thus leaving Michael in-charge.

In the millennium, Apostle Parley P. Pratt, when shown in a vision of the New Jerusalem, the temple where seated, the Savior, Adam, and Noah. This to me would constitute the Earthly government. We do know through latter revelations given to Joseph Smith, who stands in the priesthood government of GOD, was first Michael then Gabriel. It would then be more reasonable for me to assume without having a first-hand witness, Gabriel would be the one. Side-note, wasn't it Gabriel who dealt with Mary, the mother of Jesus?

[mikbone]

Luke 1: 26-27