Is Tongues-speech A Human Foreign Language?

[Snow]

My bigotometer just went off.

Me thinks you gots El Diablo on the brain. Lighten up - Prison Chaplain comes across as more spiritual than you.

Does this really matter?

Uh - yeah. Telling people that they are devilish or possessed of/influenced by the Prince of Demons is - golly - what's a polite way of putting it??? - Er, one taco short of a combo plate.

Can't you make your point without resorting so such hyperbolic balderdash?

On the other hand, I'm wondering how this meshes with the teaching that those same non-LDS churches are apostate?

That's kind of an archaic term - apostate.

One - you aren't apostate in our eyes since you weren't once of our faith and then fallen away.

Two - that's kind of vebiage belongs to the rhetoric of yesteryear. I doubt that you could find much of it in today's public LDS discourse. The party line goes something like: We acknowledge the truth and goodness in other faith traditions and invite 'them' to add the "fullness" of the gospel" to what they already have.

[prisonchaplain]

If you are praying in the Spirit, why would that Spirit not enlighten you as to what you are saying so as to be of some benefit?

The short answer is because he generally doesn't. God is sovereign. There is no model in the New Testament for believers who are PRAYING IN TONGUES privately to seek to interpret their own prayers. What needs interpreting on messages in tongues given to the church. In all five cases in the books of Acts, where believers are baptized in the Holy Ghost and speak in tongues, never is there an instance of someone interpreting or seeking an interpretation. Why? These are not instances where a MESSAGE in tongues is being offered.

Mormon practice speaking in tongues but not as a total central theme. Christ is our central theme and He is who we look to and praise, not men and what they can do to demonstrate their spirituality. The enlargement of the soul comes from the Spirit. Speaking gibberish, without understanding is not enlarging the Spirit.

1. Speaking in tongues is not the central theme of Pentecostals. It is a sensational distinctive, and so garners a lot of attention.

2. While Jesus may be an important theme in Mormonism, didn't President McConkie say that only the Heavenly Father is to be worshipped? Jesus is revered, but should not be worshipped.

3. The enlargement of the soul DOES come from the Spirit. Since the Spirit gives us the tongues, praying with them enlarges the Spirit.

Understanding and interpretation are the same thing. You seem to be very lost in your exclusive meanings of things.

Actually the words are different, and the meanings are different. See the references below. It's akin to the difference between translating and teaching.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/wor...65616-4163.html

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/wor...65750-7210.html

[Guest Syble]

The short answer is because he generally doesn't. God is sovereign. There is no model in the New Testament for believers who are PRAYING IN TONGUES privately to seek to interpret their own prayers. What needs interpreting on messages in tongues given to the church. In all five cases in the books of Acts, where believers are baptized in the Holy Ghost and speak in tongues, never is there an instance of someone interpreting or seeking an interpretation. Why? These are not instances where a MESSAGE in tongues is being offered.

I don't believe they didn't understand what was being said. Prayers come from the heart. If the heart doesn't have a clue what is being said, then it isn't from the heart.

sensational distinctive

Exactly. That is why it isn't of the Savior.

Jesus is revered, but should not be worshipped.

When we are taught to not worship God (Mosiah 15) then we

are a lost people. But we are not a lost people.

Christ is God and God alone should be praised

and worshipped. Are you familiar with this scripture found in Mosiah15?

Since the Spirit gives us the tongues, praying with them enlarges the Spirit.

Only if it is given an understanding or translation of what was said.

Actually the words are different, and the meanings are different. See the references below. It's akin to the difference between translating and teaching.

If you don't UNDERSTAND or are not given a INTERPRETQTION, you have nothing. Nothing is what you get from the Devil.

[prisonchaplain]

I do not post this to appear to support or not support spiritual things that happen to various peoples of religion. I am impressed with people of faith. I have sat in sweat loges. I have fasted for 40 days in the wilderness as recommended by a Native American. I have been in places of worship of many faiths. I have heard their spiritual expressions. This is my opinion.

If a person is moved by a spiritual experience to love others (especially their enemies) and to be kind, and compassionate (again especially to their enemies), then I am impress and believe they are being influenced by the very spirit of Christ – weather they are Christian or not, I believe it is of Christ. But if they glory in themselves and think they are being lifted up to G-d (or something else) but do not show an increase of love towards others (especially to their enemies) – then I am convinced it is not the spirit of Christ.

For me it is not so much what happens in a moment but the commitment over the coming days, weeks, months and years to love and compassion. I find great joy in conversing with such and value their opinions, and think to myself that I would be more like them.

The Traveler

I was 14 and had just returned from Bible camp. My joyful report to my Sunday school teacher was, "I was filled with the Holy Ghost--I spoke in tongues!" Her response, "So, are you finding it easier to practice the FRUITS of the Holy Ghost?" (See Galations 5:22-23)

The "sign" of tongues is sort of like have your new car registration. It may be "proof," of ownership, but most people want to go for a ride! That would be the love, joy, peace, etc. :)

[Amphiblitz]

It would be too strong to say that I sensed demonic influences from the temples. It was more that it was simply not of God. My fear about Buddhism is that it could distract practioners from the simple pursuit of the one true and living God, in favor of inner peace and mental development.

I was a campus missionary in Korea for six years, working primarily in Taejon.

Thanks for the response. I'm sure you developed a great love for the Korean people. I lived primarily in Pusan. I would like to go back for a visit some day.

I can agree with your assessment of the buddhist temples. They are not "of God", but many of the underlying priciples are amazingly still very similar to some basic Gospel priciples (not saying they are close to the whole truth, just that they do have at least a bit of it). I see this in every religion, to one degree or another. Of course, Christian faiths have a much larger degree of light and truth, IMO.

I think many of those Eastern religions had direct influence from God at one time LONG ago. But it has been mixed with the philosophies of men so much over the centuries, that very little of the purely divine still remains.

I also acknowledge that Satan can and does use religions with some truth to keep people away from full truth.

I've met very few Pentacostals I didn't like. And you're no exception, PC. You're an o.k. guy. Thanks for posting and sharing your views on tongues. I've only spoken with one or two other pentacostals about this, and they didn't do as good a job as you.

[prisonchaplain]

I don't believe they didn't understand what was being said. Prayers come from the heart. If the heart doesn't have a clue what is being said, then it isn't from the heart.

And your Scripture reference for that claim?

Haven't you ever burst into tears because you didn't even know what to say? Oh well...you're just blubbering now--nothing intelligible. Crying must not be from the heart.

There's plenty of Bible to show that praying in tongues is from the Holy Ghost. Your intuitive rules can't trump the clear examples from the Word of God.

Exactly. That is why it isn't of the Savior.

Again, the Scripture verse that says if something is sensational it's not of the Savior? BTW, your partially right. It's not from the Savior--it's from the Holy Ghost.

When we are taught to not worship God (Mosiah 15) then we

are a lost people. But we are not a lost people.

Christ is God and God alone should be praised

and worshipped. Are you familiar with this scripture found in Mosiah15?

So you do worship Jesus? Not just revere, but worship? Perhaps I was wrong. I thought McConkie had said that only the Heavenly Father received worship.

Only if it is given an understanding or translation of what was said.

Where do you get these rules you keep saying? I've given you Scripturual accounts to show you that translation is not required for private prayer.

If you don't UNDERSTAND or are not given a INTERPRETQTION, you have nothing. Nothing is what you get from the Devil.

I have to stick with the Bible over this rule you keep saying as though it were Scripture.

[Guest Syble]

Samuel 7:27; 1 Chr 17:25;

3 Ne. 19: 33

33 And the multitude did hear and do bear record; and their hearts were open and they did understand in their hearts the words which he prayed.

3 Ne. 20: 1

1 AND it came to pass that he commanded the multitude that they should cease to pray, and also his disciples. And he commanded them that they should not cease to pray in their hearts.

If you insist that people blubbering gibberish in a spiritual frendzy is the Holy Ghost, then why are we taught in many scriptures that the Holy Ghost gives the diversity of gifts that ALL might be edified. Everything the Father gives us in the way of gifts are to serve others.

You need a reference on this one too? I thought you were a chaplain? It is the basic principles of everything Christ taught -- those who lose their life for my name sake etc. Why would you think that this thing would be used for strictly selfish reasons on such a regular basis and not be from the devil?

If you need a reference, try reading the scriptures as a whole instead of disected into minute particles which don't give you the general over all principles.

Tell me about a heart that knows not what it is receiving? What does that do? The love and Spirit of God and Christ is based upon truth and light which are intelligence. D&C 93 teaches some of this and DL&c 84:45 teaches more.

But of course you don't have those scriptures to learn from. What you are experiencing is deceit from the lower quadrant. It is not of the Lord because it is not truth, light, intelligence, which is His love and giving of Himself which is love. (1 John 2 ; 1 John 4:7-8) These you should already know.

[prisonchaplain]

Samuel 7:27; 1 Chr 17:25;

3 Ne. 19: 33

33 And the multitude did hear and do bear record; and their hearts were open and they did understand in their hearts the words which he prayed.

3 Ne. 20: 1

1 AND it came to pass that he commanded the multitude that they should cease to pray, and also his disciples. And he commanded them that they should not cease to pray in their hearts.

In these passages God gives a message, and the recipient(s) pray from the heart. In the five incidents of baptism in the Holy Ghost in the book of Acts, recipients are filled, speak in tongues, BUT THERE IS NO MENTION OF A MESSAGE, OR OF AN INTERPETATION.

I think your complaint is with the Holy Ghost, not me.

If you insist that people blubbering gibberish in a spiritual frendzy is the Holy Ghost,

You don't have much respect for other religious practices, do you? Yet, you would probably be none to pleased of somebody mocked your sacred ceremonies, rituals, etc. Why can't you disagree with being disagreeable?

then why are we taught in many scriptures that the Holy Ghost gives the diversity of gifts that ALL might be edified. Everything the Father gives us in the way of gifts are to serve others.

In this passage you're referring to the gifts are all public ones, meant for the church as a whole. We've already discussed tongues used in private prayer, without interpretation.

You need a reference on this one too? I thought you were a chaplain?

You're a feisty one, aren't you?

It is the basic principles of everything Christ taught -- those who lose their life for my name sake etc. Why would you think that this thing would be used for strictly selfish reasons on such a regular basis and not be from the devil?

Now I'm selfish and from the devil?

Look, you don't need to be Pentecostal to go to heaven or the Celestial Kingdom. However, IMHO you'd have more joy if you were.

If you need a reference, try reading the scriptures as a whole instead of disected into minute particles which don't give you the general over all principles.

Why didn't they teach me that in seminary?

Tell me about a heart that knows not what it is receiving? What does that do? The love and Spirit of God and Christ is based upon truth and light which are intelligence. D&C 93 teaches some of this and DL&c 84:45 teaches more. But of course you don't have those scriptures to learn from.

I have access to them. I simply do not have a testimony that they are Scripture.

What you are experiencing is deceit from the lower quadrant.

Oh yeah Well...well...you're not very nice.

It is not of the Lord because it is not truth, light, intelligence, which is His love and giving of Himself which is love. (1 John 2 ; 1 John 4:7-8) These you should already know.

Oh, I know about the Lord's Hallelujah for it! I thank God when I want to praise and thank him for it, and am at a loss for words, and I can begin to pray and sing in those Holy Ghost-given tongues, and express from my spirit, what my mind is too limited to put to words.

[Amphiblitz]

Hey, PC,

What about me??? You forgot me. I feel left out.

jk

[prisonchaplain]

Thanks for the response. I'm sure you developed a great love for the Korean people. I lived primarily in Pusan. I would like to go back for a visit some day.

Well, yeah. If you having seen my introduction (General Topics forum, introductions--latest one I believe), then, I'll just share that I came to one in particular. We have three lovely daughters now, and visit the homeland every few years.

I think many of those Eastern religions had direct influence from God at one time LONG ago. But it has been mixed with the philosophies of men so much over the centuries, that very little of the purely divine still remains.

There are principles in these religions that we can use to build bridges to the gospel. However, the basic drive of looking for the good within is misdirected. All that is good comes from without--from God.

I also acknowledge that Satan can and does use religions with some truth to keep people away from full truth.

And quite often, those religions will keep people busy and distracted with good details, while blinding them to the one true and living God.

I've met very few Pentacostals I didn't like. And you're no exception, PC. You're an o.k. guy. Thanks for posting and sharing your views on tongues. I've only spoken with one or two other pentacostals about this, and they didn't do as good a job as you.

Kind words. Many thanks. Folk like you keep me coming back for fruitful give and take.

Hey, PC,

What about me??? You forgot me. I feel left out.

jk

You know how we complain that newspapers always report bad news and controversy, and never any of the uplifting good stuff? Now, here I went and did the same thing. MEA CULPA

You're an encourager...which is perhaps one of the loveliliest gifts of the Holy Ghost.

[Guest Syble]

Look Prisoncaplain,

I understand where you are coming from. You just have to realize, if not today, perhaps tomorrow, that what you are experiencing is keeping you satisfied on a very low level of spiritual obtainment. That would be the work of the devil.

I am not showing disrespect when I am trying to teach you that you should be holding out for something of a greater light.

That is all.

[prisonchaplain]

I understand where you are coming from. You just have to realize, if not today, perhaps tomorrow, that what you are experiencing is keeping you satisfied on a very low level of spiritual obtainment. That would be the work of the devil. I am not showing disrespect when I am trying to teach you that you should be holding out for something of a greater light.

I could be wrong, but I've never seen such an impassioned opposition to tongues as a prayer language (except perhaps at some fundamentalist "anti" site--yes they have them for Pentecostals too ).

1. Perhaps you used to be in a Pentecostal church and had bad experiences?

2. Maybe you have a family member who's Pentecostal?

I'm not pretending to know. However, most LDS members here save their spiritual fervor for defending Mormonism, not for opposing a religious practice that is distinctive to one particular non-LDS branch of Christianity. I find the tone of your opposition most curious , and frankly sad . My prayer is that the Heavenly Father will grant you a double-portion of blessing in your area of greatest need.

[Traveler]

<div class='quotemain'>

I do not post this to appear to support or not support spiritual things that happen to various peoples of religion. I am impressed with people of faith. I have sat in sweat loges. I have fasted for 40 days in the wilderness as recommended by a Native American. I have been in places of worship of many faiths. I have heard their spiritual expressions. This is my opinion.

If a person is moved by a spiritual experience to love others (especially their enemies) and to be kind, and compassionate (again especially to their enemies), then I am impress and believe they are being influenced by the very spirit of Christ – weather they are Christian or not, I believe it is of Christ. But if they glory in themselves and think they are being lifted up to G-d (or something else) but do not show an increase of love towards others (especially to their enemies) – then I am convinced it is not the spirit of Christ.

For me it is not so much what happens in a moment but the commitment over the coming days, weeks, months and years to love and compassion. I find great joy in conversing with such and value their opinions, and think to myself that I would be more like them.

The Traveler

I was 14 and had just returned from Bible camp. My joyful report to my Sunday school teacher was, "I was filled with the Holy Ghost--I spoke in tongues!" Her response, "So, are you finding it easier to practice the FRUITS of the Holy Ghost?" (See Galations 5:22-23)

The "sign" of tongues is sort of like have your new car registration. It may be "proof," of ownership, but most people want to go for a ride! That would be the love, joy, peace, etc. :)

I am sorry PC. I do not think you understood my post. In essence I have little desire to speak in toungs for my edification. My efforts as far as the gifts of the spirit involve love and compassion - and not in the short term but of eternal nature. Speaking in tongues is fine for those that seek such things and I mean no criticism. But for me at this point of my understanding - I seek a more excellent way. (See 1Cor 13) It is interesting to me that from what I know of scripture, Paul never did speak in tongues. I am not sure why - unless he felt kind of as I do.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

I am sorry PC. I do not think you understood my post. In essence I have little desire to speak in toungs for my edification. My efforts as far as the gifts of the spirit involve love and compassion - and not in the short term but of eternal nature.

There's no competition between the love of 1 Corinthians 13 and speaking in tongues, as described in 1 Corinthians 12 and 14. In fact, those who have obtained the blessing of praying in the Spirit ought to be more empowered to love.

It is interesting to me that from what I know of scripture, Paul never did speak in tongues. I am not sure why - unless he felt kind of as I do.

Apparently the Apostle Paul did NOT feel as you do. I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all 1 Corinthians 14:18

[Guest Syble]

<div class='quotemain'>

I understand where you are coming from. You just have to realize, if not today, perhaps tomorrow, that what you are experiencing is keeping you satisfied on a very low level of spiritual obtainment. That would be the work of the devil. I am not showing disrespect when I am trying to teach you that you should be holding out for something of a greater light.

I could be wrong, but I've never seen such an impassioned opposition to tongues as a prayer language (except perhaps at some fundamentalist "anti" site--yes they have them for Pentecostals too ).

1. Perhaps you used to be in a Pentecostal church and had bad experiences?

2. Maybe you have a family member who's Pentecostal?

I'm not pretending to know. However, most LDS members here save their spiritual fervor for defending Mormonism, not for opposing a religious practice that is distinctive to one particular non-LDS branch of Christianity. I find the tone of your opposition most curious , and frankly sad . My prayer is that the Heavenly Father will grant you a double-portion of blessing in your area of greatest need.

You are trying to find cause of my reproach in all the wrong places and ignoring my statement altogether, so in this light do you think you could take a closer look at yourself and what your gift of tongues is taking away from you rather than giving you?

I am praying for you out of the Love of Christ that you will not be over taken in your pride of dead works. I feel this is your area of greatest need. Love in Christ.

<div class='quotemain'>

I am sorry PC. I do not think you understood my post. In essence I have little desire to speak in toungs for my edification. My efforts as far as the gifts of the spirit involve love and compassion - and not in the short term but of eternal nature.

There's no competition between the love of 1 Corinthians 13 and speaking in tongues, as described in 1 Corinthians 12 and 14. In fact, those who have obtained the blessing of praying in the Spirit ought to be more empowered to love.

It is interesting to me that from what I know of scripture, Paul never did speak in tongues. I am not sure why - unless he felt kind of as I do.

Apparently the Apostle Paul did NOT feel as you do. I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all 1 Corinthians 14:18

Now why wouldn't you lay it out in context?

verse 19=

19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

I think this speaks volumes brother.

[prisonchaplain]

You are trying to find cause of my reproach in all the wrong places and ignoring my statement altogether, so in this light do you think you could take a closer look at yourself and what your gift of tongues is taking away from you rather than giving you? I am praying for you out of the Love of Christ that you will not be over taken in your pride of dead works. I feel this is your area of greatest need. Love in Christ.

I was trying to figure out why the vehemence, but ultimately the Holy Ghost will have to work those issues out in your heart. You've not demonstrated the Scriptural fallacy of my beliefs, nor do I believe that you have even shown that your opposition to tongues as a prayer language is a strong Mormon position. As I said, in my several months here, you are the only one to say:

1. My faith is of the lowest quadrant

2. My prayer in the Spirit is of the Devil

3. I am selfish

4. I deserve your reproach

5. I have pride in dead works--this is my greatest need.

How many different ways can I say, "Wow. Tell me how you really feel?" You don't even know me, yet you believe have me all figured out. So, I speculated that maybe there was somebody you did know who was Pentecostal--or perhap you had experience for awhile yourself.

Now why wouldn't you lay it out in context?

I'll put both verses here, so the context is clear: I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. 1 Corinthians 14:18-19

What do we learn here?

1. Traveler's belief that Paul never spoke in tongues did not prove accurate. Paul spoke in tongues more than anyone in his audience. BTW, that was my only point in citing verse 18--to show that Paul had done so. Verse 19 addresses a broader concern, which I'll address, since Syble is interested, and I desperately want to help satiate her obvious hunger for more knowledge about this blessing.

I think this speaks volumes brother.

Amen, it does.

2. It demonstrates my point that there is a private time, outside the church at which Paul thrills at speaking in tongues.

3. There is a distinction between this and the gift of tongues, in the church, which requires interpretation. Paul reminds the Corinthians that the bottom line in congregational worship is that the believers be built up. Thus, he encourages interpretation and direct prophecy.

I am repeatedly amazed at the attempts of Anti-pentecostals to disparage the gift of tongues, by quoting Scriptures about it being a lesser gift, or by comparing it with prophecy and interpretation. All good things are from God. Tongues are a blessing. And, quite frankly, the reason some people do not seek the gift is spiritual pride. They do not want to submit their tongues to what seems outlandish, or foolish. However, God truly does use the foolish things to confound the wise.

[Traveler]

I'll put both verses here, so the context is clear: I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. 1 Corinthians 14:18-19

What do we learn here?

1. Traveler's belief that Paul never spoke in tongues did not prove accurate. Paul spoke in tongues more than anyone in his audience. BTW, that was my only point in citing verse 18--to show that Paul had done so. Verse 19 addresses a broader concern, which I'll address, since Syble is interested, and I desperately want to help satiate her obvious hunger for more knowledge about this blessing.

It could be that Paul spoke in sarcasm and rebuke for making such things known publicly. There is no record in the Bible that Paul ever spoke anything in tongues worthy of being called scripture. On the other hand he spoke often words recorded in scripture that have edified many for hundreds of generations. Since this is a topic of greater interest to you - could you direct me to any edifying words in scripture that were spoken in tongues worthy of being made scripture? Or that Jesus spoke publicly in tongues? Or that anyone at any time in the history of man spoke anything in tongues edifying enough to become scripture?

Do not take this post wrong - It is not that I do not think such things are good and that they take place or that they edify. I am not sure that such things should be published and told but instead pondered quietly and privately in one’s heart. Thus to this cause I think Paul spoke.

The Traveler

[Guest Syble]

I agree Traveler. I think a little understanding of what dead works are would be in order as well.

Prisonchaplain,

You have yet to prove that these occassions were not attended with interpretation. We all know the scriptures are far from complete and the most important teachings come from seeing beyond the esoterical and physical manifestations to the spiritual growth and increase in understanding and wisdom. I see nothing coming from unintelligle yammer that gives no messages, no teachings, no truths. What more are these experiences than the glory the Pharasees heaped upon themselves for fasting, and praying in public.

[prisonchaplain]

It could be that Paul spoke in sarcasm and rebuke for making such things known publicly. There is no record in the Bible that Paul ever spoke anything in tongues worthy of being called scripture. On the other hand he spoke often words recorded in scripture that have edified many for hundreds of generations. Since this is a topic of greater interest to you - could you direct me to any edifying words in scripture that were spoken in tongues worthy of being made scripture?... Do not take this post wrong - It is not that I do not think such things are good and that they take place or that they edify. I am not sure that such things should be published and told but instead pondered quietly and privately in one’s heart. Thus to this cause I think Paul spoke

Paul was doing two things: affirming that praying in tongues is a blessing, and rebuking the Corinthians for praying loudly and ostentatiously in tongues in public. Pentecostals agree with Paul and the Scriptures on both points.

As for why God does not use tongues in the production of Scripture, no the Bible does not indicate that this was done. That was not God's purpose for tongues. Are you suggesting therefore that tongues is not a blessing?

Or that Jesus spoke publicly in tongues?

The Holy Ghost had not yet come when Jesus walked the earth. In fact, He said it was good that he returned to the Father, so that the Holy Ghost would come!

[prisonchaplain]

I agree Traveler.

You do? You agree with Traveler, who said: It is not that I do not think such things are good and that they take place or that they edify?

I do not want to overstate Traveler's viewpoint. If I read him correctly, he seems to believe that Pentecostals may err on the side of ostentation and spiritual pride in the exercise of the blessing of tongues-speech. BUT, he does at least acknowledge the potential for blessing--even with private prayer.

So, do you really agree with Traveler, or were you trying to create the appearance of people siding with you?

I think a little understanding of what dead works are would be in order as well.

Yeah, I didn't think you were really agreeing with Traveler. You add to your litany of accusations and generalizations, the insinuation that I practice "dead works."

You have yet to prove that these occassions were not attended with interpretation. We all know the scriptures are far from complete and the most important teachings come from seeing beyond the esoterical and physical manifestations to the spiritual growth and increase in understanding and wisdom.

It would be all but impossible to prove interpretation did not happen, but the context does not lend itself to thinking it was. In the most direct incident, the Gentiles are baptized in the Holy Ghost, the Jewish believers question how the disciples can be so certain that such a blessing could really be so, and they respond that they spoke in tongues as we did. The key evidential factor was the tongues-speech.

I see nothing coming from unintelligle yammer that gives no messages, no teachings, no truths. What more are these experiences than the glory the Pharasees heaped upon themselves for fasting, and praying in public.

So, in addition to practicing "dead works," I'm also engaging in unintelligible yammer, and I am heaping upon myself the glory of the Pharisees?

Personally, I'm not too concerned that Sybil does not approve of my religious practice, but IF I am right, the Holy Ghost might be none too pleased with someone who claimed to be a His follower, who was despising the gifts He bestows.

[Guest Syble]

I love the gifts in righteousness. Dead works are a facade of the righteous gifts and I abhore them. The Holy Ghost only gives good gifts. A pretension of a gift in an incompleted form does not edify. If you choose this form, so be it. It is for you to choose.

And being clever, in your own eyes, is hardly a fruit worthy of the true gift of tongues.

You do? You agree with Traveler, who said: It is not that I do not think such things are good and that they take place or that they edify?

[Ray]

I still haven’t seen a better description of what it means to have the ability to speak in “tongues” other than to say it is the ability to speak in “languages”, with that ability usually attributed to the receipt of a “gift” from God.

For instance, even if the gift of “tongues” gave someone the ability to speak in a “language” that nobody could understand without inspiration from God, anyone who receives that gift should have the ability to speak in that language while knowing their language is not gibberish.

Or in other words, even if the gift of “tongues” gave someone the ability to speak in a “language” only of God, and not a language of any man or nation on Earth, anyone who receives that gift should have the ability to speak that language of God while knowing it is not gibberish.

And btw, if someone speaks in a language they don’t know isn’t gibberish until someone else tells them what they said, then the person who acts as “interpreter” could say anything without anyone catching on.

And to understand my answer to the question asking why the gift of “interpretation” is given, try imagining what it would be like to listen to the United Nations without anyone interpreting for others in that room.

[prisonchaplain]

Or in other words, even if the gift of 'tongues' gave someone the ability to speak in a 'language' only of God, and not a language of any man or nation on Earth, anyone who receives that gift should have the ability to speak that language of God while knowing it is not gibberish.

I know I'm speaking in tongues (not gibberish) when I'm 'praying in the Spirit,' in the same way you know the LDS Church is true--by the testimony, or leading of the Holy Ghost.

And btw, if someone speaks in a language they don't know isn't gibberish until someone else tells them what they said, then the person who acts as 'interpreter' could say anything without anyone catching on. And to understand my answer to the question asking why the gift of “interpretation” is given, try imagining what it would be like to listen to the United Nations without anyone interpreting for others in that room.

When there is the public exercise of the gift of tongues, for the edification of the church, then yes, of course, the gift of interpretation is needed. When my spirit is praying in tongues then the prayers go to the Father directly. He needs no interpretation. But, so my faith is also built up, I also need to pray in English, so I know what I've asked of the Father, and can be encouraged when the answers come.

[Guest Syble]

When there is the public exercise of the gift of tongues, for the edification of the church, then yes, of course, the gift of interpretation is needed. When my spirit is praying in tongues then the prayers go to the Father directly. He needs no interpretation. But, so my faith is also built up, I also need to pray in English, so I know what I've asked of the Father, and can be encouraged when the answers come.

Why you wouldn't want a purer form of praying to the Father than having this intervention happen is a mystery to me. (I stand by my first conclusions, if not even more strongly, after reading your continued defense and discription.) It seems to me as a form of seeking for a sign and only a wicked and adultrous generation seeks for such.

I continue to pray for you.

[prisonchaplain]

Why you wouldn't want a purer form of praying to the Father than having this intervention happen is a mystery to me. (I stand by my first conclusions, if not even more strongly, after reading your continued defense and discription.) It seems to me as a form of seeking for a sign and only a wicked and adultrous generation seeks for such. I continue to pray for you.

Two thoughts: 1. Why would I seek a biblical pattern of prayer--one that allows my Spirit to directly commune with the Father, without human filter or hindrance? You don't know? Or is the "poorness in Spirit" that surrendering one's tongue to the Spirit requires, just a little to humbling? 2. To assign malicious motives to believers practicing a form of prayer that is repeatedly layed out in Scripture is just plain odd.

And a question: Did you used to be a fundamentalist Baptist, and when President Hinckley said, "Bring all that is good with you," you thought he meant rabid anti-Pentecostalism?