Are there greater Gods out there.

[Soninme]

I believe God has always been God, is God, and will always be God.

Psalm 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. (Emphasis is mine.)

Jessica, the book of Revelation agrees with you

Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 4:8 The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying:

“ Holy, holy, holy,

Lord God Almighty,

Who was and is and is to come!”

[ronism99403]

Fair response. I understand the desire to learn and perhaps I was hasty in my choice of words. I suppose from my perspective, there is no man on this earth that knows the answer to such questions. When you posed these questions, like this one, are you really expecting a stranger or a 19 year old missionary to give you the answer? Do you think that someone here knows? Suppose someone in this forum, or a missionary told you that God was indeed a son of another god, and he the son of another etc etc. That He was in fact a guy named Bill that live several trillion years ago on some other planet of gods and he has lots of brother gods and uncle gods. Would you stop and say to yourself, "sweet, I now know that the Mormon church is a)totally true or b)totally insane. I now am ready to start trying my hardest to be good so I can be a god too." Why is this question vital to your salvation? I dont think its necessarily wrong to ask the question, because of course the question is tantalizing. But for one to actually think that a straight, DIRECT answer to that question is going to be answered doesnt make any sense. And for one to whom the question is posed, what is wrong with simply saying, "I cant answer that because I do not know"? Even further, if you found out that god was indeed descended from other gods, you are still left with the same question you started with. . . who did they descend from? If God is the first, the only, and last God, you still still have the question of how did he become. Do you see what Im saying? The question will simply not ever be answered here. It does not need to be.

I asked the question primarily so that I could sample the diverse answers I anticipated receiving. I admit that although I enjoy the LDS concept of a corporeal Heavenly Father ( which makes Him more personal than some nebulous, unknowable spirit), I never could accept the idea that there is someone or something greater than he. Call it a hold-over from my previous protestantism, if you like. Apparently there are Latter Day Saints who believe this as well. But for those who believe otherwise, their Christianity is as viable as the others. This is significant to me because it was not so in my previous Christian paradigm. Believing or not believing certain things scratched you off the list Christian. I enjoy asking these questions in this forum because there is much more tolerance here than elsewhere. I'm sorry, however, that for some my question caused contention.

[Vanhin]

Jessica, the book of Revelation agrees with you

Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 4:8 The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying:

“ Holy, holy, holy,

Lord God Almighty,

Who was and is and is to come!”

Soninme and Jessica, the Book of Mormon appears to agree with the both of you in more than one place. Here's a sample.

For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting, behold, he sent angels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing. (Moroni 7:22)

And so does our Doctrine and Covenants:

By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them; (D&C 20:17)

And so does our Pearl of Great Price:

And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless? (Moses 1:3)

And more from the Book of Moses:

And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me. And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth. And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten. And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many...

...And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine. And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words. For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. (Moses 1:31-34, 37-39)

Regards,

Vanhin

[Hemidakota]

I'm sorry, however, that for some my question caused contention.

Why would it? The difference here, you can pray about it for your own answer.

[spamlds]

Read the King Follett Discourse. This addresses your question inasmuch as anything has been revealed regarding the answer. Here's the link:

Mormon Literature Sampler: The King Follett Discourse

[Hemidakota]

True but remember, there are four to five different variations of the same sermon.

[Justice]

Jessica, the book of Revelation agrees with you

Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 4:8 The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying:

“ Holy, holy, holy,

Lord God Almighty,

Who was and is and is to come!”

If God had no beginning, how can He BE the beginning and end?

The answer to this question lies in one's definition of "eternal" and "eternity," not whether or not one believes God is eternal. As far as I know everyone believes He is eternal.

[Soninme]

Jessica, the book of Revelation agrees with you

Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 4:8 The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying:

“ Holy, holy, holy,

Lord God Almighty,

Who was and is and is to come!”

If God had no beginning, how can He BE the beginning and end?

The answer to this question lies in one's definition of "eternal" and "eternity," not whether or not one believes God is eternal. As far as I know everyone believes He is eternal.

Alpha and Omega, Beginning and End, First and Last are of course names and titles that describe (in some way) The Almighty.

God is called the Beginning and the End but as you say no one believes He has an end so why would He then have to have a beginning? Just as He isn't the first and last letter of the Greek alphabet, it would mean He is the beginning (or beginner) of all things and the end (or ender, if you will) of all things and also everything in the middle.

It was put to me once that since God created time and is timeless (eternal) you could pick anytime in the past or future and at that time God "was and is and is to come"

John 1 :1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.

In the beginning the Word was already there.

Thanks

[bytebear]

The problem with using the King Follet Discourse to prove that Mormons believe that God was not always God is that they are picking and choosing parts of the speech and ignoring other parts.

I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man, the immortal spirit, because it has no beginning. Suppose I cut it in two; as the Lord lives, because it has a beginning, it would have an end. All the fools and learned and wise men from the beginning of creation who say that man had a beginning prove that he must have an end. If that were so, the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the house tops that God never did have power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself. Intelligence exists upon a self-existent principle; it is a spirit from age to age, and there is no creation about it.

The concept is pretty simple. Something with no end can have no beginning, and this applies to the spirit of men, and to the spirit of God.

The second issue I have is that the LDS church defines "godhood" differently than other religions. Most religions define God as the almighty powerful controller of the universe. And, although that is the role of God, it is not what makes Him God. According to D&C 132:20, those who are exalted become "gods" because "because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them."

This is the concept of eternal progression. Gods are those who progress forever. God is progressing, not because He is more powerful, or more knowledgeable, but because he is continuing to create new worlds, and we, as his creation, are progressing. As long as we progress, he progresses. And there is ample evidence from the Bible (and other LDS canon) that show that we can inherit all that God has.

Topical Guide: Man, Potential to Become like Heavenly Father

Interestingly enough, I believe we already have the attributes of God, in that we are and always have been progressing. This, for me explains the statements in Genesis when Adam and Eve's eyes were opened and God said "They have become as one of us". They progressed with a new knowledge, although not yet completed. We, likewise are gods (as the scripture says Psalms 82:6, John 10:34). The difference is, we have not been judged to continue. We may be damned and stop progressing.

But, that does not make us polytheistic, because just as the trinity teaches that three persons make up one God, I believe that we all become one with God, and even though there may be infinite beings or persons who have the attributes of gods, there is still only one God.

Finally, there is a special distinction with Jesus Christ. He was God from "the Beginning" which tells me, that he was always God. He didn't have to be tested through a mortal existence to gain godhood. He was God, And notice that having a physical body was not a requirement for that distinction. The distinction was that he was already judged worthy of eternal progression. He was perfect, whereas we will be made perfect through his atonement.

So was the Father like Christ and was perfect from the beginning or was he perfected? It doesn't matter. He was always progressing, and therefore was always God, by that definition, and since he was God prior to our existence as his children, from our perspective, he was always the supreme being of our adoration and worship. and Christ was always to be our savior and our God. The Godhead existed from the beginning.

And if all exalted beings make up this infinite entity we generically call God (not to be confused with God the Father, the Godhead, or Jesus Christ), then God has always been, and is infinite, yet grows as infinite beings are added to God. But God is always infinite since infinity + infinity = infinity.

[Justice]

I agree with most of it. I'd just like to add this:

The term "have no end" does not apply to just existence. All who ever become offspring of God will exist forever, even fallen Lucifer.

Rather, it is indicitive of the kind of life they will live. Their offspring will have no end, or their offspring will be innumerable, because it will be an eternal progression.

Truths can be discerned from the fact that glorified and perfected men and women will have offspring, and that is the qualifier to "having no end" as stated in the scriptures... not just to exist forever.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Justice

[bytebear]

I agree with most of it. I'd just like to add this:

The term "have no end" does not apply to just existence. All who ever become offspring of God will exist forever, even fallen Lucifer.

Rather, it is indicitive of the kind of life they will live. Their offspring will have no end, or their offspring will be innumerable, because it will be an eternal progression.

Truths can be discerned from the fact that glorified and perfected men and women will have offspring, and that is the qualifier to "having no end" as stated in the scriptures... not just to exist forever.

You are correct. Someone in this or another thread asked the purpose of God. and the answer is "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man" (Moses 1:39)

I found this article which briefly describes the terms "immortality' and "eternal life" neither of which means to exist forever.

Immortality and Eternal Life

[Justice]

Without reading your link (I will when I have time), I believe the distinction is this:

Immortality is one who was born on earth, received a mortal body, and then resurrected into immortality. There is no condition of glory implied. This is, at a minimum, a step above what Lucifer has, because he was never mortal.

Eternal Life is one who has not only been resurrected, but had received life in the highest degree of glory, or the kind of life God lives.

[Hemidakota]

There is not much given than which is already stated. Even when you scanned Joseph's own journals and sermons, what is given is more or less dribbles of information. Here is a man that seen it firsthand. But not enough to give a clear answer to what comes next - being eternal and immortal beings. This I believe was left out for a wiser purpose.

We do know as Justice stated and others had linked too - we will be in the presence of our FATHER and Elder Brother, serving collectively for the welfare of our Creator and our progeny. Even John witnessed the eternal destiny of those who will inherit the highest state, when he mentioned (See Rev 2:17 JST):

17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Professor Draper, whom I believe is more accurate in his interruption of the same book said this:

The promises to the faithful individual symbolize exaltation and come loaded with allusions to the temple. The promise is that they shall eat of the tree of life in paradise and of the hidden manna (see 2:7, 17), both considered to be the food of angels, but the former with particular significance. In it was the seed of "eternal lives" (D&C 132:24) and immunity to death (see D&C 132:19-22; Gen. 3:12-24). Each will receive "a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it" (Rev. 2:17, KJV). According to Doctrine and Covenants 130:10-11, this stone acts as "a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known; and a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written. . . . The new name is the key word." Further, the Savior promises, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment," and him "will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name" (Rev. 3:5, 12, KJV). (Opening the Seven Seals: The Visions of John the Revelator by Richard D. Draper)

The answer is, only those who will receive this special stone, will be able to see above that realm.

[TheAngelPalmoni]

I concur ... NOPE

[Hemidakota]

????

[Blackmarch]

Was Heavenly Father first created a man like Adam by someone greater than himself, and did he need to go through a probationary period to obtain Godhood, or has he always been God with no other greater than he?

we don't know.

I'd lean more toward "Was Heavenly Father first created a man like Adam by someone greater than himself" because it seems to be more sensible.

than

"or has he always been God with no other greater than he?"

either choice tho is pretty mind boggling... but it does not matter to me.

[Hemidakota]

I done some research this morning, now I am wondering even if those below the Celestial Kingdom will even know this question. Residing in GOD's realm, I can see this as knowledge for them, but not anything outside of this.