Single women and becoming a mother

[john doe]

A woman who resorts to artificial insemination is vain?? Seriously, a vain woman wouldn't have a child. I PROMISE YOU. She would rather not ruin her figure.

As has been pointed out, you can be vain and not have a perfect figure.

I think it's completely reasonable for a woman who can't find a husband to marry to want to have a child born out of her own womb.

I don't know if you realize this but it is completely heartbreaking to not find someone to be your eternal companion with. I don't know a single LDS woman who wouldn't rather have a husband. I've never met a woman from any walk of life that didn't want a man to have and to hold. So I think your opinion is based on something which you are completely misjudging and being unreasonable and harsh about.

And I think you're being overly dramatic and sensitive. There is absolutely nothing wrong with adopting an existing child in need of a loving home.

[Cassiopeia]

As has been pointed out, you can be vain and not have a perfect figure.

And I think you're being overly dramatic and sensitive. There is absolutely nothing wrong with adopting an existing child in need of a loving home.

How can one be vain about wanting a child from one's own womb? If that is so then by your reckoning, every couple who seeks medical help to conceive are being vain.

I don't see my opinion as over dramatic in the slightest. Nor am I feeling sensitive. Is my ability to see it from another side so disturbing you have to cast such judgmental statements on my words.

I did not say there was anything wrong with adoption. I simply can understand someone wanting a child that is their biologically and of their own making.

[john doe]

Since this has become an issue, I have taken the liberty of rechecking the definition of vanity.

van·i·ty

   /ˈvænɪti/ Show Spelled [van-i-tee] Show IPA noun, plural -ties, adjective

–noun 1. excessive pride in one's appearance, qualities, abilities, achievements, etc.; character or quality of being vain; conceit: Failure to be elected was a great blow to his vanity.

2. an instance or display of this quality or feeling.

3. something about which one is vain.

4. lack of real value; hollowness; worthlessness: the vanity of a selfish life.

5. something worthless, trivial, or pointless.

6. vanity case.

7. dressing table.

8. a wide, counterlike shelf containing a wash basin, as in the bathroom of a hotel or residence, often equipped with shelves, drawers, etc., underneath.

9. a cabinet built below or around a bathroom sink, primarily to hide exposed pipes.

Alternate definitions #6-9 probably don't apply to this situation.

I would add that my thoughts are that vanity would apply to outward appearances or an attempt to make others think certain things about you, but are not limited to the visual.

[john doe]

How can one be vain about wanting a child from one's own womb? If that is so then by your reckoning, every couple who seeks medical help to conceive are being vain.

I don't see my opinion as over dramatic in the slightest. Nor am I feeling sensitive. Is my ability to see it from another side so disturbing you have to cast such judgmental statements on my words.

I did not say there was anything wrong with adoption. I simply can understand someone wanting a child that is their biologically and of their own making.

Speaking of casting judgemental statements on peoples' words, I'm just going to leave this here. And with that, I'll bow out of the conversation.

[pam]

If someone is flaunting their own abilities and going against the church leaders, I'd say that's disobedience not vanity.

I so confused!

I'm bowing out too because it appears that the point that some of us are making is being totally lost. We have our opinions on both sides and never the twain shall meet.

You want to read more into John Doe's statements that what he has meant that is fine. You talk about being judgemental about words but that is exactly what is happening with you as well.

[Cassiopeia]

Alright, as long as you both recognize you are the ones flouncing off rather than seeking understanding, fine by me.

[pam]

Alright, as long as you both recognize you are the ones flouncing off rather than seeking understanding, fine by me.

Priceless

[Cassiopeia]

Priceless

Now THERE's an intelligent response.

[pam]

Why thank you.

[mountainsara73]

From the Church handbook of instructions:

Artificial insemination of single sisters is not approved. Single sisters who deliberately refuse to follow the counsel of their Church leaders in this matter are subject to Church discipline.

Why don't "regular" church members have access to the Church handbook of instructions? I think a lot of "misdeeds" could be avoided if we all had access to the same resources....

[mountainsara73]

I believe it has something to do with the idea of deliberately choosing to bring a child into the world without a father being present. A single woman adopting or rescuing a child who is already born is a much different proposition than purposely flaunting God's ordained family unit of both a father and a mother.

Personally, I think that when a single woman chooses artificial insemination rather than adoption, she usually does so more out of vanity rather than out of a sense of wanting to help a disadvantaged child who needs a loving parent. One is charity, based in love, the other is vanity, based in selfishness. But that's just my opinion.

Um...vanity....nope. Not vanity in most cases. Adoption is NOT that easy. It costs FAR more than artificial insemination and if you go through your state foster care agency you can be rejected for a lot of dumb things that you have no control over...I knew a lady who got rejected because she had a barn with a loft, stairs in her house, and farm equipment! I have very steep stairs in my house...there's no way I would be approved. That and the fact I live on a mountain and you have to snowshoe to get to the house 3-6 months a year. It's truly not that simple to adopt. You don't wake up one day and go "I know, I'll rescue a drug addicted sexually abused child that's been bounced around the foster care system for 5-6 years and we'll all live happily ever after."

It's not vanity (any definition of it) that causes women to want a child of their own, it's instinct and common sense...if a foster family can't handle a kid, how can a single woman handle a kid, plus work, plus therapy etc. But mostly it's instinct and a strong biological drive that makes women want to have a baby of their own...to experience pregnancy and breast feeding and all of those things...the things women who have children so often complain about, and things men can't do and therefore can't understand.

[crazypotato]

Also, the Proclamation on the Family does state that children should be born into a home with a loving father and mother. Kids need fathers. I see a big difference in my kids when my husband has to leave for large amounts of time (military). I am a stay at home mom and spend a lot of time with them, but I don't like being a single mom. Not only is it really difficult for me, it is very frustrating to watch my kids need their dad and not be able to fix that.

However, foster kids are not always good with men. Some of them have been so abused that they are afraid of men and are recommended for single mom homes. Adoption of a infant would be easier, in my opinion, than getting a foster kid, but there is always a high chance of fetal alcohol syndrome and you have to be realistic of what you can handle on your own. It's tough, what you are going through - certainly not for wimps.

I also wanted to add that you should not underestimate your influence as an aunt. My kids have been heavily influenced by their aunts, even the ones that they rarely see. I can see the positive impact those women have on them, and they are NEEDED by my children, not just a cool bonus. Kids NEED extended family. My kids sure do.

[bizzlebozzle]

I think the point that's being missed about 'vanity' and single motherhood is this: with artificial insemination, it's all about the woman's desire to have her own child and have the experience with her body. There are a variety of reasons to reject adoption in favor of artificial insemination, most of them having to do with environmental and genetic control, and thus the vanity. It becomes more about what the mother wants and "needs" rather than what the millions of needy and bereft children already on earth want and need. It's basically the difference between "having a child" and "being a mother." I don't necessarily agree with the analysis, but I see the point.

Nobody has argued that being a single mother is a vain desire, or all about personal looks. You've misinterpreted the responses.

Before you jump down my throat, I too am single, childless, and female. I totally understand the urges and desire to have "my own" baby, but I see the why the church is so cautious about it.

[Cassiopeia]

I don't see that choosing not to adopt a baby that was born addicted to heroine or cocaine or meth or any number of substances is vain. It means the person knows their limitations. And I do not say that lightly. I had to walk through hell and back to save my daughter from Crystal Meth.

I wouldn't wish that on anyone. And as mentioned before, adoption is so costly and so stringent that sometimes it's just impossible. So before we go saying that those who decided against adoption for the reasons that they can't handle a trouble child, or those born with addition or birth deformities are vain, let's remember we are given the right to choice in this life. And not one of us is in a position to judge others choices.

[Tarnished]

Um...vanity....nope. Not vanity in most cases. Adoption is NOT that easy. It costs FAR more than artificial insemination and if you go through your state foster care agency you can be rejected for a lot of dumb things that you have no control over...I knew a lady who got rejected because she had a barn with a loft, stairs in her house, and farm equipment! I have very steep stairs in my house...there's no way I would be approved. That and the fact I live on a mountain and you have to snowshoe to get to the house 3-6 months a year. It's truly not that simple to adopt. You don't wake up one day and go "I know, I'll rescue a drug addicted sexually abused child that's been bounced around the foster care system for 5-6 years and we'll all live happily ever after."

It's not vanity (any definition of it) that causes women to want a child of their own, it's instinct and common sense...if a foster family can't handle a kid, how can a single woman handle a kid, plus work, plus therapy etc. But mostly it's instinct and a strong biological drive that makes women want to have a baby of their own...to experience pregnancy and breast feeding and all of those things...the things women who have children so often complain about, and things men can't do and therefore can't understand.

Having looked into both adoption and artificial insemination and for that matter IVF (In Vetro Fertilization) and the church's veiws on the matter here is my opinion. I think the reason for the way the church handbook is written is more of a morality standpoint.

For example in my case. My husband was sterilized by chemotherapy, thankfully he stored semen before the treatment. However if he had not we would not be able to use donor sperm to get pregnant. That tells me that the reason behind the rule is that using donor sperm is viewed as getting pregnant by a man other than my husband. I also would not be able to get pregnant with an embryo that had been created by using another woman's egg and my husband's sperm.

So in a single woman I believe the rule is based on the fact that though it is a medical proceedure you are in effect getting pregnant from a man you are not married to. The church does not dicipline people for not having both spouses (thus I don't see it as a "there is not a husband in the picture" thing) but they do dicipline for sexual transgressions, which I believe is what they view the act as.

From what I have read on the matter the church would be fine with adoption. But as you say, adoption brings its own difficulties. In our case we looked at all options. Adoption costs as much as IVF, which can be around $10,000 or more. Artificial Insemmination is cheaper, but for us it used too many vials of sperm to be a good option. We ended up going with IVF because we wanted to try to have a child of our own before we tried adoption. Maybe it was vain of us, maybe even selfish, but it was our decision and our choice. I can understand where the thought process comes from.

It is a difficult situation you find yourself in. Adoption does cost a lot, and you have to have your home and your life approved by the adoption agency. Fertility treatments, AI or IVF are also both costly, and as a single woman they carry the consequences of church disciplinary action. My advice would be adoption, there are some companies out there who will help pay or reimburse adoption costs. And sometimes foreign adoption is easier than adopting from someone in the States. Or wait till you get married and have children then. From what I have read there is a process where you can freeze your eggs and save them for later use if you are worried about not getting married until it is too late. That might also be an option to look into.

Anyway these are just my thoughts based on what I have read and looked into. Hope they help.

[beefche]

Why don't "regular" church members have access to the Church handbook of instructions? I think a lot of "misdeeds" could be avoided if we all had access to the same resources....

You do have access to it. Ask your bishop to review it. You cannot copy it and you cannot remove it from the building, but you can read the CHI.

Also, "misdeeds" are handled by following the commandments and counseling with the bishop. If I (single, childless female) were thinking of getting pregnant or adopting a child, I would want to know what the church advises and would ask my bishop.

[beefche]

It becomes more about what the mother wants and "needs" rather than what the millions of needy and bereft children already on earth want and need. It's basically the difference between "having a child" and "being a mother."

Amen and amen.

This whole thing is about what I want instead of looking at what is best for the child. The Proclamation has stated that children need a father and a mother. If one chooses to take a father or mother out of the equation, then one is choosing to go against God's counsel and I'll go far and say, commandment.

A child already born into this world without father or mother or both then needs to have a stable influence. One isn't choosing to take a father or mother out of that child's life. That choice has already been made. By choosing to adopt that child, one is trying to fulfil God's commandments by providing a parent.

So, instead of focusing on what I want, focus on what's best for the child (unborn or born). Being a parent is all about sacrifice and making those hard choices sometimes. And that can start well before a child is born or adopted.

[applepansy]

Beefche... very well stated.

Mountainsara, we do all have access to the same resources. We have the Scriptures, Ensign with Conference talks, The Proclamation on the family, our Bishop, and most importantly we have the gift of the Holy Ghost. The handbook is for Bishops. We don't have a school where Bishops go to learn to be Bishop. They have the same resources we have, and then the church has added some clarification on issues that are unique to our day. 150 years ago IVF or AI were not options so it wasn't something that Bishop's had to worry about.

I see IVF and AI as wonderful technological advances to help COUPLES create forever families. But as with all wonderful advances Satan uses them too.

Edited August 2, 2010 by applepansy
typo

[Cassiopeia]

Amen and amen.

This whole thing is about what I want instead of looking at what is best for the child. The Proclamation has stated that children need a father and a mother. If one chooses to take a father or mother out of the equation, then one is choosing to go against God's counsel and I'll go far and say, commandment.

A child already born into this world without father or mother or both then needs to have a stable influence. One isn't choosing to take a father or mother out of that child's life. That choice has already been made. By choosing to adopt that child, one is trying to fulfil God's commandments by providing a parent.

So, instead of focusing on what I want, focus on what's best for the child (unborn or born). Being a parent is all about sacrifice and making those hard choices sometimes. And that can start well before a child is born or adopted.

So what does the couple or individual do who does not have enough money for the adoption process. Or has restrictions beyond their control to get approved, like was mentioned before as to the problems with stairs and location and etc?

Commandment or counsel? I guess because there'd be a discipinary hearing it is considered a commandment?

[Tarnished]

So what does the couple or individual do who does not have enough money for the adoption process. Or has restrictions beyond their control to get approved, like was mentioned before as to the problems with stairs and location and etc?

Commandment or counsel? I guess because there'd be a discipinary hearing it is considered a commandment?

If they don't have enough money for the adoption chances are they aren't going the way of IVF. If it is a couple then AI may be the way they go unless dealing with a fertility problem on one side or the other resulting in sterility or severe lack of eggs or sperm.

Problems with restrictions can possibly be gotten around by going with a foreign adoption. I haven't looked deeply into how different nations go about adopting out children from their country but I do know that some view it as a business deal, you give them money they give you a child.

I view it as a commandment based on as you say disciplinary action if the action is taken. And like I said in my previous post I think it is a commandment due to the sexual and procreative nature of the action. True you are not having sex with the other person, but you are using their sexual material to create a life, the "usual" result of sex (I say usual because sometimes it does not work that way for everyone). Because of this I think a single individual should probably go with adoption if they plan to follow the commandments.

[beefche]

So what does the couple or individual do who does not have enough money for the adoption process. Or has restrictions beyond their control to get approved, like was mentioned before as to the problems with stairs and location and etc?

Commandment or counsel? I guess because there'd be a discipinary hearing it is considered a commandment?

They live the commandments. They become motherly or fatherly to the children in their ward and circle of influence. And they trust the Lord when He promises that ALL will be given to them. They can grieve and yearn, that is completely natural and understandable. But, there will be some things that are denied us in this life--for reasons beyond our understanding.

Don't forget, this life is not all that is given to us. There is eternal life in which all things that we cannot enjoy in this life that are good and true can be had in the life to come.

[Cassiopeia]

If they don't have enough money for the adoption chances are they aren't going the way of IVF. If it is a couple then AI may be the way they go unless dealing with a fertility problem on one side or the other resulting in sterility or severe lack of eggs or sperm.

Problems with restrictions can possibly be gotten around by going with a foreign adoption. I haven't looked deeply into how different nations go about adopting out children from their country but I do know that some view it as a business deal, you give them money they give you a child.

I view it as a commandment based on as you say disciplinary action if the action is taken. And like I said in my previous post I think it is a commandment due to the sexual and procreative nature of the action. True you are not having sex with the other person, but you are using their sexual material to create a life, the "usual" result of sex (I say usual because sometimes it does not work that way for everyone). Because of this I think a single individual should probably go with adoption if they plan to follow the commandments.

Last time I heard about adopting from a foreign country it still was well over 20K, I just don't think that's feasible for most couples.

Here's an interesting site. International Adoption

As to it being sexual material, I am having a hard time grasping that. I would say it's procreation materials rather than sexual materials.

In any event, as I said in my very first post, being a single mom is very hard. I've done it for the better part of 14 years now and at times it's heartbreaking and lonely. My ex lives literally 2 miles from our home up here and he did not work at being their dad hard enough.

His new wife alienated him from my children. It was his choice to do that but until they married he was perhaps the best dad I've ever seen. Now that the kids are all grown, they are pretty much forcing their way past her to be a part of their dad's life.

I'm blessed enough that I will never have to face being single, never married or childless. I would not feel in a position to judge someone who resorted to IV to have a child. Some health insurance cover the cost of such a procedure so it would be more financially viable than adopting from overseas or even in our own country.

That's what really needs to change. The cost of adoption. With some many childless couples and even single women and men who'd love to be a parent, and so many bereft children, you'd think it would be in the best interests of everyone around to make that as financially amenable as possible.

[Tarnished]

That's what really needs to change. The cost of adoption. With some many childless couples and even single women and men who'd love to be a parent, and so many bereft children, you'd think it would be in the best interests of everyone around to make that as financially amenable as possible.

Amen to that Sister! As a couple that has seriously had to take a look at adopting we were seriously surprised at the costs of adopting. And then you hear about mothers who are aborting their children and you think, "I would have taken that child." I think the whole mindset of adoption needs to change, and there needs to be some leeway given to people who want to adopt, I can understand the viewpoint of it being there to ensure the safety of the child, but when it comes down to something stupid like stairs, then I just don't get it.

[Cassiopeia]

Amen to that Sister! As a couple that has seriously had to take a look at adopting we were seriously surprised at the costs of adopting. And then you hear about mothers who are aborting their children and you think, "I would have taken that child." I think the whole mindset of adoption needs to change, and there needs to be some leeway given to people who want to adopt, I can understand the viewpoint of it being there to ensure the safety of the child, but when it comes down to something stupid like stairs, then I just don't get it.

No kidding. I'm shocked at what people who want to adopt have to go through. I mean come on...if they have no criminal background and can financially care for the child...I say GIVE them the child. Don't charge them.

[Guest Alana]

Amen to that Sister! As a couple that has seriously had to take a look at adopting we were seriously surprised at the costs of adopting. And then you hear about mothers who are aborting their children and you think, "I would have taken that child." I think the whole mindset of adoption needs to change, and there needs to be some leeway given to people who want to adopt, I can understand the viewpoint of it being there to ensure the safety of the child, but when it comes down to something stupid like stairs, then I just don't get it.

In the US I don't think there's a huge surplus of 'normal' kids to adopt, who are just sitting there waiting to be adopted. Here is the California site of kids in foster homes waiting to be adopted. California Kids Connection - Find a Child If you'll do a very wide search of these kids you'll find that the mass majority (pretty much all of them) have major health problems or delays, bringing into play what can handle emotionally/financially etc. Well, at least for kids under 12. There are TONS of teenagers that need a home on there.

As far as all the babies that are aborted who would have been adopted, I'd love to adopt a newborn, but I know that most of the cases of healthy newborns are adopted to families who've been working with an agency and who look pretty good on paper.

In the future I'd love to do foster care, but I need to wait until a time when emotionally we can all handle that.