Quote: 'i Believe That Men Are Unable To Die Until Its The Lord&#3

[pushka]

I was prompted to start this discussion by comments made by Domiducus in the Prayers for President Hinckley thread. I didn't think it would be tasteful to post my comments in there.

Domiducus stated:

'Think about all the greats in history and then research their lives and notice how many times they all should have died at a much sooner time. Example, George Washington , 1st Pres. of USA. He should have died numorous times while still serving Great Brittan in various battles during the French and Indian War. Nephi is another example. We all know that Joseph Smith was a marked man. Gordon B Hinkley will live until the Lord deems his work here finished. When that day comes, there will be no need to mourn for there will be no reason to. Pres. Hinkley will have fulfilled his earthly mission and moved on.'

My question is, what about all the 'not so greats' who have had these experiences...just ordinary people, of all faiths or no faith at all.

Myself, I should have died on at least 3 occasions. When I was 3 weeks old my mother took me to the 'baby clinic' because I was floppy, not feeding well and had been vomitting. The doctor there told her that I was just a fussy baby, and there was nothing the matter with me. Later that day the community midwife was in my mum's street, so just happened to call in to see how she was. She took one look at me, heard what had been happening and called an ambulance. I had bronchial pneumonia and spent some time in hospital in an oxygen tent. My mother was told I would have died had that midwife not arranged for me to be admitted to hospital when she did.

On another occasion, which I will mention because Domiducus referred to people committing suicide, and therefore stopping God's plan for our survival. I did try to commit suicide in 2002. I took a massive overdose of Epilim and Warfarin tablets. I took around 200 tablets in all. The warfarin alone should have been enough to kill me as it is a blood thinning tablet, used also as rat poison. I was taken to hospital by ambulance again, after friends discovered what I'd done, and after I'd started vomitting. The staff could not believe how many pills I'd taken until the levels of the drugs was confirmed in blood tests. I was placed on a drip for a few days, being given replacement blood plasma, and given Vitamin K to help my blood coagulate again. I made a full recovery within a week.

Later that year, after consuming about 3 bottles of Red Wine...I had received news of my ex father-in-law's death that day, and had to break the news to my children, and had also received news that my daughter was to have major surgery within the next 2 weeks, and I just flipped...drank the wine, and fell against a wall in my living room, hitting my head. I had severe headaches and blackouts for the next week, before I allowed anyone to seek medical help for me...I was too afraid to seek it. I was taken to hospital again, where it was discovered I had a bleed between my skull and my left eye. I was taken to the neurology department of another hospital and given pain relief, but my condition worsened and I had to have emergency surgery to remove the blood clot from my eye socket. The hospital staff told me I had frightened them, and that I was lucky to be alive. I started to make a rapid recovery after 1 week again, but had to remain in hospital 3 weeks whilst they decided whether or not it was safe for me to resume my warfarin medication...which I take for a heart condition I have.

So, what is the conclusion to draw from this? Am I destined to do great things? Is my purpose here on earth so important that God keeps protecting me from death? I feel very honoured if that is the case...

I know that other members of this site have had experiences themselves of either themselves or family members surviving against the odds...what do you think?

[Amphiblitz]

Am I destined to do great things?

Yes. B)

[LionHeart]

Here's my opinion on the subject:

I believe everyone has, within their grasp, the ability to accomplish great things. Whether they actually do it, is a different story. I know for myself, I have had many great aspirations but I always found myself too freakin lazy to get off my arse and accomplish them. I think if I would have actually went after my dreams, I would be known worldwide right now.

As far as suicide goes, the way I see it is this:

This life is the greatest gift our Heavenly Father has ever given us. In spite of our ill informed decisions to end it, He still wants us to get the most out of it. So as a result of this, he will step in whenever he can, and help us. However we still have our free agency, and if we are determined enough to end it all, then the Lord can't do much about it without taking away our free agency. If we are determined enough to end it, we will choose effective methods. And if it doesn't work the first time, we will try again with a more effective method. I think the Lord can see how determined we really are to end it, and then He will step in accordingly.

My eldest brother was recently considering suicide. He wrote a letter to our mother saying the only person who could talk him out of it was dead; this person being our father, who passed away last spring. As circumstance would have it, our father visited him in a dream, and explained a few things to him, and convinced him to choose life. And as a result, he is still with us today.

I also believe, however, that there are exceptions to this concept. For example, I believe there are some who are pre-ordained to fulfill a certain purpose on this Earth; our Saviour being first and foremost of these. Satan often recognizes these people and makes attempts on their lives. In this case, the person requires extra protection. The Lord will also place these people in an environmet where they can get the proper upbringing, and the teachings they need to fulfill their specific purposes.

[Domiducus]

Pushka, you miss my point all together. My point was Not that only "great ones" cant die until the Lord's time, but that NO man (woman) can die until their time according to the Lord's will (with the exception of suicide or acts done that a person knows or should know will cause loss of life )

Put your quills down and put your mortar away, dont be so quick to put up a wall. :)

What I said partains to us all. Not just "the elect". After all, even Satan will not be cast into Outer Darkness until the Lord's own time.

[Traveler]

I do not mean to burst anyone's bubble but when a person dies is not all doctrine. I have no doubt that at some times some lives are perserved for reasons that are not obvious. However, death is not all that bad nor is it the end of the good that anyone can or will do. Sorry but I do not believe life is as important as we mortals want to make it out to be. I have been by the sides of both older and younger persons at their death and the thing I am most impressed about is that death was not all that hard. It would seem that at some point the dying persons came to realize that death was okay and then they were gone.

I do not pretend to be an expert because I have not experienced real death myself (although I though I did a couple of time but it turned out I was still alive). If we were spirits when the universe was made and we think of time as distance - 1 foot equal to 1000 years than we have been experiencing things in this universe for about as long as it is from SLC to LA. Our mortal life would be an inch and maybe a little more of that distance. If you were driving from SLC to LA - how important would the last inch be? Especially considering all the other miles we have gone to get us to the last inch.

The Traveler

[Snow]

Pushka, you miss my point all together. My point was Not that only "great ones" cant die until the Lord's time, but that NO man (woman) can die until their time according to the Lord's will (with the exception of suicide or acts done that a person knows or should know will cause loss of life )

Put your quills down and put your mortar away, dont be so quick to put up a wall. :)

What I said partains to us all. Not just "the elect". After all, even Satan will not be cast into Outer Darkness until the Lord's own time.

George Washington's death was hastened because those attending to him, let some blood, estimated at about 82 ounces.

So - to stay timely with his death schedule, do you suppose that God magically influenced Washington's doctors to tap off some of his life-sustaining blood?

Sheeze - how about he died because of a septic sore throat, probably of streptococcic origin, associated with acute edema of the larynx. Why does God have to be blamed for everything?

[pushka]

Thanks for your replies everybody...

Domiducus, I agree that you were referring to all people in your initial statement, however I was then a little confused that you only listed 'great' people as examples of this...

Just wanted to hear others' opinions :)

[shanstress70]

I don't believe in predestiny. I think that people die when their bodies wear out, or when something goes wrong, such as trauma or disease.

I know of plenty of people who had so much to offer others, who died too soon. I also know of people who didn't die soon enough! I know this sounds cold, but I'm thinking of people like the guy who raped and buried alive the little girl in FL.

I don't think God controls when we die... but then again, I don't pretend to know... that's just what I lean toward.

[Serg]

It is very interesting this topic.

Although it may sound normal, it is a very debated issue even within the scriptures. Its said that some have died "not in their time" or may i add "not when they should have". This extends not only to those who aparently survive(for some reason), but for those who die BEFORE they should have. There's scriptural support for this.

Anyways, i believe that part of our life is in God's hands, this is, he decided when(not how) he would LET us die(not kill us). Its based on what does He wants us here or in the everafter for, but thats only in His eternal mind.

Death is ultimately tightly united to SIN. We are able to die cause we sin. Jesus could have remained alive(not only for His divine part) but because He never sinned. Again, it is odd that if this is the total dependence of ones death(our sins), then still why did Jesus get old? Cells die as we grow up, ironically, we are dying since we are born. So theres a thought. But i sustain, people die because they sin in part. The aging process is somehow allowed anyways. Now this is as to the nature of dying, not as to dying in any particular form. I dont mean people die because they are bad, but that our mortal condition comes because of that. (just a thought).

[pushka]

I tend to agree with Shanstress's view of the matter.

My sister in law died too young, at 39, from Breast Cancer, and I wouldn't like to think that God thought she had achieved everything he thought was worthwhile in her life...she was studying to become a teacher, had in fact worked for and obtained her degree whilst ill, and had taken up temporary teaching posts...she had lots to live for, her daughter was only 16.