Building trust for your church

[Traveler]

You are correct! However, whether this small minority are those who choose the right church, or those who faithfully pursue a love relationship with God may be a worthy question. Even amongst LDS, I've heard only 40% are active. In the better evangelical churches half the people tithe. The overall average for Christianity is 20% that do so. How many regularly read scripture, or take time to fast and pray? How many are unashamed about declaring their faith, or taking an unpopular godly stand? If 25% of the 2 billion who claim to be Christian are truly ready that would likely be a tremendous remnant.

Sometimes when reading the Bible we get the impression that there was only one thread of truth filtering through the societies of man worthy of the L-rd and his covenants. But then, every once in a while we find “branches” off of the “trunk” growing in places we were not aware. In the Book of Jude the Book of Enoch is quoted as scripture. Today no one knows where or when the Book of Enoch was first written. But we know it was not anywhere that any of the Books of the Bible were written because of the calendar of Enoch.

The two greatest events spoken of and prophesied in scripture both refer to the Messiah Jesus Christ. All the Prophets and teachings of the Old Testament point to and prophesy of the Messiah. Never-the-less even the closest apostles at Jesus’ side did not understand his mission. The next most important event will be the return of the Messiah. If we look at history there was a major movement among the Jews to prepare for the Messiah. This group had saved the last sacred artifacts remaining of the temple (Known today as the copper scroll of the Dead Sea Scrolls). They performed sacrifices daily at the temple. They had built an entire city in the wilderness for the specific and only purpose of preparing for and receiving the Messiah. They did more than tithe – they gave all they had. They preserved scripture, they fasted and they prayed. They lived honest and righteous lives. They did everything the “Christian” churches of today say needs to be done to prepare for the Messiah.

But when the Messiah came there is not one shred of evidence that anyone from this group actually became a disciple of Jesus. There is no evidence in the New Testament and there is no evidence in the Dead Sea Scrolls this major group left behind. BTW they knew within a few years of when the Messiah would show up but they still did not follow Jesus. Their writings are so much like the teachings of Jesus some scholars believe Jesus may have been schooled somehow by this group. They were performing baptisms 300 years before John the Baptist. They had all the scriptures and read them every day – they lived the best they could. What devotion did they lack that any Christian fulfills today? Why were they not ready for the Messiah? Why, when the angles appeared to the Sheppard’s of Judea the same angles passed over those so diligently waiting for the Messiah? Why were they not at the birth of Jesus?

I can only think of one answer – Because they did not recognize and accept the prophet of the restoration – John the Baptist.

I wonder - could it be that their priests and teachers taught them that their scriptures and their "teacher" were all they needed. That a prophet such as John the Baptist would not preceed the Messiah?

The Traveler

Edited August 12, 2010 by Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

We believe that all mankind may be prophets (with a little 'p'). A key difference between LDS and evangelicals is we also believe in living Prophets and Apostles, in the same vein as Moses and Peter. While we believe there is a power among all believers, we do not denote it as the priesthood, as LDS view priesthood in a very different way. Not too many Christian churches today have stories of John the Baptist, Peter, James, John and other ancient prophets coming to restore priesthood power and authority.

We share the general concepts, but yes, they do play out quite differently. There are not Old-Testament style prophets in our churches. I suppose Paul comes closest (except for Jesus, of course) in the New Testament--but even he does not carry that title.

I'm enjoying this string, because we are learning about each other. Not all is the same, and comparisons only go so far. We share beliefs in prophecy, and in at least some form of continuing revelation...but true enough, our understandings have taken us to quite different forms and practices.

[prisonchaplain]

Traveler...perhaps they were so busy following the program, they forgot the Programer?

[Guest mormonmusic]

Several strings of late touch on the issue of how the public perceives the LDS faith. Polygamy, Prop. 8, continuing revelation, just how perfect the Prophet is suppose to be, and the recent FAIR conference, which highlighted a rather weak public regard for LDS.

I don't think this public perception will ever go away, unfortunately. Why? Because we can't repudiate our history and still be who we are.

When you state that your leadership is inspired, that the Church is God's Church, and the only true Church, there really isn't much leeway to distance yourself or somehow repudiate the objectionable parts of your history -- repudiation that would make us more acceptable in the eyes of the world. In so doing, we'll end up hurting the central belief that the Church is inspired and an extension of God and we will lose our identity -- and probably many members.

Now, there has been "repudiation" in the past, but it's always been explained as NOT a mistake, but as "growth" or new revelation, which preverves, to some extent the "true Church" concept. However, the public still holds it against us and won't let us forget it. They won't let us forget blacks and the priesthood even after the priesthood was opened up to them. They won't let us forget polygamy even though we stopped that practice.

Also, it would take some pretty ingenious explaining to reverse our stance on gay marriage after the Apostle's Proclamation to the World. Reversals like that would rock many people's testimonies about just how inspired the Church is.....so, unfortunately, when you become a Mormon, you have to accept that you'll be thought of as strange in many respects for those parts of our history that won't ge forgotten in our lifetime....

So, live with it we must....

[Justice]

I think it's important to "seem to" fit in, or that we are somewhat like other Christian religions, primarily for missionary work. If we admit and say we are not Christian then it will be more difficult for anyone who believes in Christ to investigate our church.

It seems deceitful, but since when all is said and done, we are (or should be) Christian to the core, it ends up pure honesty. I think as one becomes a member of the Church and learns the doctrines and covenants of the Church their perception of what a Christian is naturally changes.

We ARE Christian, and generally all who endeavor to follow Christ are, but in many ways we are not like other Christians... but it is other Christians who are farther from being Christain than we are (should be). It's an enlightening learn for new members.

[spamlds]

If you engage in LDS apologetics or evangelistic work you are bound to run into anti-LDS efforts. You'll see it everywhere. However, my guess is that if you worked 9-5 in the Seattle area, went to your church activities, and only discussed religion with friends, neighbors and colleagues when it came up naturally, you'd probably see very little organized anti-LDS argumentation.

BTW...I'm not suggesting you pull back or soften your efforts. You must do what you believe God's called you too, regardless of the polls!

Living in Virginia, I would say from my experience, that 9 out of 10 converts receive anti-Mormon literature from family and friends as they begin to seriously consider baptism into the LDS Church. In this Internet age, you don't need to be involved in apologetics or evangelistic work to receive anti-Mormon literature.

A friend of mine who lived in Mississippi said that one Evangelical church in the Biloxi area made it a point a couple of times a year to come to our fast and testimony meetings and disrupt them with anti-Mormon demonstrations.

The various Church pageants, such as the Mesa Arizona Easter Pageant, are disrupted almost every year by loud protesters.

There have been instances where anti-Mormon street preachers have stood outside the gates of Temple square and shouted "Mormon whores!" at the newlywed couples who were getting their wedding pictures taken by professional photographers and family members.

Let me propose an experiment. Simply go to any online forum like Facebook or Reddit or a Christian discussion forum and, using an anonymous account name, announce that you're considering joining the Mormon Church and watch what happens. You will be inundated with disparaging attacks against the Church by "concerned" strangers.

In my personal experience, when I was investigating the Church over 30 years ago, we had a neighbor lady across the street who never even spoke to me or paid any attention to me whatsoever. After a few months of living there, she noticed Mormon missionaries coming to our home. She inquired of my mother about them and my mom told her I was considering joining the Church.

A couple of days later, she gave my mother some anti-Mormon pamphlets she got from her Baptist minister. (He just happened to keep some on hand!) She told my mother I was being brainwashed by a dangerous cult. It upset her terribly. Was the neighbor, who never gave me the time of day, suddenly concerned for my welfare or was she simply filled with a spirit of bigotry?

This process is repeated again and again, year after year. Every Mormon elder has seen it. If you are able to resist this spirit, good for you. I would hope that you would use your influence with your fellow clergymen to dispel them of this practice.

[prisonchaplain]

Ironically, I don't doubt any of what you say. I might have behaved similarly at a much earlier time in my life. Largely as a result of my time at this site, I am now more likely to give the book How Wide the Divide: a Mormon and an Evangelical in Conversation to those asking questions. It works well because both sides speak for themselves, and both authors (one a BYU professor, the other from Denver seminary) are respectful and respected. Also, as a chaplain, I can give that book to an evangelical or a Mormon in good conscience.

I do believe the "street preachers" who disrupt your church ceremonies, pageants, conferences etc. are an embarrassment. If it's any consolation, many of them would protest my church too. The only time Jesus engaged in such tactics is when the Spirit of the Lord was upon him in his own house of worship.

There's no purpose in defending the worst of our "defenders of the faith." Boorish behavior is simply ungodly. I learned a bit more today. Thank you.

[Traveler]

Traveler...perhaps they were so busy following the program, they forgot the Programer?

As I have carefully studied what they wrote and then hid to be found in our day. I find nothing in them to criticize and I wonder how it was then missed exactly what they sought. It does cause me to wonder because I cannot see that I or anyone else is any more involved than they were. But what bothers me the most is the Jesus walked among them and perhaps as a boy of 12 taught them in the temple. Some how I think something is missing.

The Traveler

[spamlds]

Traveler...perhaps they were so busy following the program, they forgot the Programer?

I would agree with you wholeheartedly on that statement.

Matthew 13 and Mark 4 are a couple of my favorite passages for understanding how the word of God interacts with faith of the hearers. The quality of the seed is assured. The results depend on what's in the heart. That's the beauty of the plan.

We grow up in knowledge, wisdom, and strength. We hear the word and depending on what we are inside, there are different results.

Some people hear the word and immediately dismiss it. The seed falls to the wayside because their hearts are already too wicked and corrupt to accept it at all. The "wicked one" steals it away before it can even take root.

In the "stony ground" people, it takes root, but doesn't last. Trials, affliction, persecution deter growth. They don't nourish the seed like Alma says to do in the Book of Mormon. (See Alma chapter 32.)

Some people fall prey to distractions in the "thorny ground." Their growth gets choked by wealth-seeking, career, education, prosperity, and various desires and lusts. Idolatry--the worship of things--chokes off spiritual growth.

Then, even among those who accept the word, some bring forth fruit in varying degrees, depending on various factors.

It's human nature. You see this process at work in all churches because all churches are filled with human beings. It's a marvelously conceived process that sorts souls based on their willingness to submit to the Lord's will.

As humans, we tend to want a "program" to follow. Some want the Bible to be an "instruction manual" and if they do what it says, they'll be saved. Others want a simple guarantee--a confession of faith, regardless of works--and the expectation of salvation. Yet others like to build up complex sets of rules and behaviors to ascend to God.

If we carefully study the lives of the prophets and the apostles, we'll see that God often pushed them to go beyond what the perceived requirements of the law were. Abraham and Isaac is a perfect example. In the Book of Mormon, we have the story of Nephi and the wicked Laban. In the Church in our day, we had a bunch of New-Englanders of Puritan stock and morals who were commanded to practice plural marriage. The Lord tested these folks and those tests were extremely difficult.

For each of us, scripture is an invitation to come directly under the tutelage of the Almighty, via the Holy Ghost. When that tuition begins, amazing things begin to happen. The Lord takes us to places that makes us re-evaluate our commitment and the artificial barriers we place to say "This far and no farther."

When we resist that testing and lock ourselves into forms, rules, and ritual, we cross over into Phariseeism. We adopt a "form of godliness" and "deny the power thereof." This was what the Lord described in the First Vision. Latter-day saints should be wary of following down the same path that led primitive Christians to adopt dead creeds and abandon living revelation.

The dynamic process that guides us through these spiritual hurdles depends on a direct relationship with Jesus Christ and a willingness to receive counsel and guidance from him directly as well as through his servants. It't human nature to want to "delegate" that responsibility to others. To follow and obey the Lord, we must listen to his voice as he reveals it to us.

The question and challenge that latter-day saints face nearly two centuries after the Restoration is the same that the ancient Church faced. Do we as individuals fall prey to the temptation to follow established forms alone? Or do we respond to the invitation of the Spirit to guide us as we follow living prophets and apostles? The ancient Church chose the form and abandoned the oracles. If we are not careful, the same can happen to us.

[HEthePrimate]

Interesting questions, PrisonChaplain.

Even though I am LDS, I'm also somewhat of a universalist in the sense that I think there are many paths to the top of the mountain. I'm not really concerned with being distinctive for the sake of being distinctive, but for the good that what is unique about us can add to what others have. I also believe we can learn a lot from people of other faiths, and even from people who are not religious. In other words, my particular brand of Mormonism is not antagonistic to other faiths, but prefers to seek a sort of ecumenical cooperation.

At a personal level, I rather enjoy being different, but don't go out of my way to do it. I just try to be myself, even when it means being similar to others. Paradoxically, it sometimes seems as if those who try the hardest to be "different" end up looking all the same.

[Vanhin]

Yeah HethePrimate, I don't mind going with the crowd as long as they are going where I am going.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Guest mormonmusic]

What's the appropriate way to deal with the protestors of the Church who disrupt meetings, or stand outside Church buildings and demonstrate?

[Justice]

I say let them.

The leaders of the church can deal with it legally if it becomes a problem.

[Maya]

What's the appropriate way to deal with the protestors of the Church who disrupt meetings, or stand outside Church buildings and demonstrate?

Smile at them and give them some juice... poor things their voices mut get tired for all that shouting.. juice is good for them.

This was my friends and my plan, as they were planning a demonstration around the Finnish Templeopening... but it rained that day, so they did not come.:)

[Vanhin]

What's the appropriate way to deal with the protestors of the Church who disrupt meetings, or stand outside Church buildings and demonstrate?

I say a little laying on of hands is in order...

Vanhin

[Vanhin]

Just kidding!

[bytebear]

What's the appropriate way to deal with the protestors of the Church who disrupt meetings, or stand outside Church buildings and demonstrate?

When I was in High School, our seminary was across the street, and students took a free period during the day, so there was a constant flow of kids back and forth. One day we had some anti-Mormons practically blocking the path and handing out pamphlets and such. The police came (probably notified by a passing motorist) and they were going to be arrested for disturbing the peace, but the seminary teacher came out and asked them to step a foot onto the lawn, so they would be on private property and not subject to arrest. I think that was the appropriate reaction. Turn the other cheek.

The irony, is Mormons have heard the same tired issues over and over. Nothing is new. I find it incredibly funny when I read on a blog how Mormons don't even know their own deep dark secrets, but the truth is, those high school kids knew it all, and probably better than the anti-Mormons who were trying to shock them by revealing something "sinister". In fact, most seminary students when confronted with such shocking beliefs, would simply open up their Bibles and show the verses that support their position.

[todd520]

At this site I see posters who almost seem willing to define LDS teachings in evangelical phrasing. Others want little to do with it, and prefer to herald the Restoration, Eternal Marriage, the possiblity of literally becoming gods, etc. Some believe gaining a measure of acceptance from fellow Christians is highly desirable, while others seem concerned that in so doing, the distinctiveness of the LDS faith will be watered down.

THOUGHTS?

As a newbie, I would say LDS has some real issues because of word choice in their faith. When you dig into what the Mormons mean, it doesn't sound so scary. It can turn people away before they get close enough to read the text.

[martybess]

Smile at them and give them some juice... poor things their voices mut get tired for all that shouting.. juice is good for them.

This was my friends and my plan, as they were planning a demonstration around the Finnish Templeopening... but it rained that day, so they did not come.:)

I know this off subject, sorry...... Maya I was at the Finnish temple last week!!! It was so wonderful to be with the saints there. Many Finns don't really like the Russian's, Estonian's etc. because of the suffering at their hands but I love them dearly!! They too have suffered much and they are so humble. Many countries go to the Finnish temple right now and it was the Estonians day the day I was there and I shed tears that day when a brother who had traveled from Estonia asked me in broken english where I lived and I said SLC he jumped out at me and gave me a huge hug and started crying saying I love you brother, I love you brother. Wow I take so much for granted living where I do while it's only a dream for these extremely poor folks to walk the halls where every prophet has walked since Bringham in the SLC temple etc. It was as if I was best friends with the prophet to him. We shed some tears all along I kept telling him I'm just a brother in the priesthood like him, no different other then our locations. His spirit was overwhelming. Sorry just had to share.

[Vanhin]

I know this off subject, sorry...... Maya I was at the Finnish temple last week!!! It was so wonderful to be with the saints there. Many Finns don't really like the Russian's, Estonian's etc. because of the suffering at their hands but I love them dearly!! They too have suffered much and they are so humble. Many countries go to the Finnish temple right now and it was the Estonians day the day I was there and I shed tears that day when a brother who had traveled from Estonia asked me in broken english where I lived and I said SLC he jumped out at me and gave me a huge hug and started crying saying I love you brother, I love you brother. Wow I take so much for granted living where I do while it's only a dream for these extremely poor folks to walk the halls where every prophet has walked since Bringham in the SLC temple etc. It was as if I was best friends with the prophet to him. We shed some tears all along I kept telling him I'm just a brother in the priesthood like him, no different other then our locations. His spirit was overwhelming. Sorry just had to share.

Hey Martybess,

Thank you for sharing your experience. I cannot wait until I can enter the Finnish temple. I'm Finnish, and I haven't been back in 13 years.

Thanks,

Vanhin

[martybess]

Hey Martybess,

Thank you for sharing your experience. I cannot wait until I can enter the Finnish temple. I'm Finnish, and I haven't been back in 13 years.

Thanks,

Vanhin

Vanhin, You will love it! My wife got to go to the dedication.

BTW I don't know if you have seen this:

Best Countries in the World - Newsweek

What are we doing in the US? Ok I know that question is problematic.

How long have you been a member? We might know some ppl in common.

[Vanhin]

Vanhin, You will love it! My wife got to go to the dedication.

BTW I don't know if you have seen this:

Best Countries in the World - Newsweek

What are we doing in the US? Ok I know that question is problematic.

How long have you been a member? We might know some ppl in common.

My whole life. I have lived on and off in Finland, and I served as a missionary there. We lived near or in Lahti when I was kid.

Send me a PM. I wonder if we do have some friends in common. :)

Vanhin