Why Not Embrace The Creator?

[sgallan]

Yet God created all of these for you and you reject Him.

Prove it.

Why not embrace the creator?

Which one? There are thousands of variations. Besides, I look at believers to see if there is some additional value. I am afraid many believers, such as yourself, either show me no additional value.... or even worse.

How would you feel if you gave your daughter everything and she decided you just didn't exist, but insisted you continue to give her everything she enjoyed?

I would chuckle and figure it was an interesting phase she was going through. I sure as heck wouldn't ban her from my presense forever. Drown her. Turn her into salt. Or some such thing.

[Guest Syble]

Yet God created all of these for you and you reject Him.

Prove it.

Why not embrace the creator?

Which one? There are thousands of variations. Besides, I look at believers to see if there is some additional value. I am afraid many believers, such as yourself, either show me no additional value.... or even worse.

How would you feel if you gave your daughter everything and she decided you just didn't exist, but insisted you continue to give her everything she enjoyed?

I would chuckle and figure it was an interesting phase she was going through. I sure as heck wouldn't ban her from my presense forever. Drown her. Turn her into salt. Or some such thing.

I understand your view, but it is a bitter one. You really don't know or understand the God you speak of or you wouldn't even think to say such things.

[sgallan]

I understand your view, but it is a bitter one. You really don't know or understand the God you speak of or you wouldn't even think to say such things.

This response sounds pretty bitter as well. Oh well. You asked, I answered.

[Palerider]

[Traveler]

I understand your view, but it is a bitter one. You really don't know or understand the God you speak of or you wouldn't even think to say such things.

This response sounds pretty bitter as well. Oh well. You asked, I answered.

I think you have a better understanding of G-d than many that claim to have. I do not know if you have considered the possibility that the reason G-d tells us of him is for our benefit and not his. That would imply that there is something about him worth knowing about that we cannot learn on our own. If that is true then asking someone else will not provide the answer. Which also means that the forum does not have the answer either. Anyway - have a nice day. :)

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Why not embrace the creator?

Which one? There are thousands of variations.

That's a common surface-level question. However, the first question is: do you even want to know him/them? If you have already determined that any God(s) who exists is inherently unjust and cruel, then your search has already ended. Regardless of how powerful an unjust and cruel God may be, you would not want to worship or serve him/her/them. You're better off to ignore, or if necessary avoid, such (a) deities.

On the other hand, if something does drive you to discover who the Creator is, then the 1000s of options could likely be quickly reduced to a handful. Some religious systems will prove illogical or immoral on the surface. Additionally, if as you seek, you become convinced that the Creator is singular, you're quickly left with very few choices. Those who seek will find is an Old and New Testament promise.

Besides, I look at believers to see if there is some additional value. I am afraid many believers, such as yourself, either show me no additional value.... or even worse.

I have heard you list your good qualities. I'm sure you have others you're too humble to enumerate. However, you're not perfect. You have faults. You have sin. Surprise, surprise...people of faith do too. True religion will not make you better than the unbeliever, it will make you better than you are.

You might be a 'godless heathen' and do more public good than I do, though I be Christian. However, you will do much more good as a believer than you do now. Over time, you might even assess my accomplishments a little more generously. :-)

[sgallan]

However, you will do much more good as a believer than you do now.

Been there. It was a wash. I didn't do any more, nor any less. The things I do sort of run in the family. I learned it from my dad.... who has done more.

Some religious systems will prove illogical..... on the surface.

Honestly, all of them do to me. You mention the "evil god". Well I can't really believe in an "evil god" because I do not believe in any god. Not even a little bit. But I do find it illogical (for example) that people consider a (posited) god, that would allow for the eternal torture of most of humanity, as loving and good.

[Guest Syble]

I love this:

True religion will not make you better than the unbeliever, it will make you better than you are.

[sgallan]

True religion will not make you better than the unbeliever, it will make you better than you are.

Being a non-believer will not make you better than the believer, it will make you better than you are.

[Guest Syble]

True religion will not make you better than the unbeliever, it will make you better than you are.

Being a non-believer will not make you better than the believer, it will make you better than you are.

Not necessarily. You have to believe in something, if only the principle of power to be a good person, or you cannot be made better than you are.

To just not believe in God does not make you a better person.

It makes you a less fortunate one. The believers are not left to their own devices to become better, they have all the power and aids of the Holy Ghost and the Savior's love to become better people.

[sgallan]

Not necessarily. You have to believe in something, if only the principle of power to be a good person, or you cannot be made better than you are.

Not necessarily.

To just not believe in God does not make you a better person.

Sure it can. I know several people who became better persons as non-believers. My dad for one.

It makes you a less fortunate one. The believers are not left to their own devices to become better, they have all the power and aids of the Holy Ghost and the Savior's love to become better people.

Yet so many so-called believers hardly seem to be better people. And many are quite the opposite. But mostly, people are just people..... there are good ones, and bad ones, and everything inbetween, whether they are believers or not. Since I don't believe, and you are unable to prove any specific god, and can't show me any additional value in the way I already live my life, I see no point in becoming a believer. And as a parent..... since I see value in the way I live, and many of my non-believer relatives believe, I am raising my kid with those values.... much as the believers raise their kids with their religious values.

[prisonchaplain]

However, you will do much more good as a believer than you do now.

Been there. It was a wash. I didn't do any more, nor any less. The things I do sort of run in the family. I learned it from my dad.... who has done more.

Without questioning the merit of your former faith--and I do not know what tha was--I'm wondering where you were. We you the true believer, ready and willing to missionize and evangelize? Were you the cultural believer, who liked church and the people and the way of life? Were you one who hung around with other believers, and simply believed you fit in?

Why I ask is that for religionists, part of being and doing good is worshipping God(s), and helping others to do so. If "doing good" is only measured in practical deeds, volunteerism etc., then, indeed, you probably have more time to do them now than you did when you belonged to a religious system.

Some religious systems will prove illogical..... on the surface.

Honestly, all of them do to me. You mention the "evil god". Well I can't really believe in an "evil god" because I do not believe in any god. Not even a little bit. But I do find it illogical (for example) that people consider a (posited) god, that would allow for the eternal torture of most of humanity, as loving and good.

Okay, the "logic" of a loving God creating an eternal hell. And, of course, if logic is the standard, then it matters not whether we speak of the comparatively small Mormon hell, or the much larger evangelical hell. Here's my take on it:

1. Heaven (whether 1 or 3) is eternal.

2. If even a miniscule amount of sin/rebellion is allowed to fester in eternity it will eventually become a huge, divisive, destructive force.

3. So, sin cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

4. Rebellion against the Creator is even more heinous that rejection of the best human parents imaginable, because the eternal image of God is within us. We know he is true, and we despise and reject him--even though he made us. Romans 1 does suggest that we will be without excuse in our rebellion.

5. So, the only just punishment for scorning the eternal good is eternal bad.

That's my take on the logic of a loving God creating an eternal hell. Does that mean I like hell, enjoy frothing about it, do not find it a difficult doctrine? Of course not. Most modern Christians struggle with the teaching of hell. Charles Taze Russell started the Jehovah's Witnesses, originally out of his rejection of the doctrine of hell.

In my own case, I first became convinced of God's reality, goodness and power. Then I came to accept that the Bible is his holy Word. Then I came to it saying, "God what are you saying here." If I find something I do not understand or like, I do some checking. Sometimes I put it on the back burner.

Finally, although I believe the evangelical teaching on hell is the most accurate, I've said for many years now that, "You do not have to believe in hell to go to heaven."

[sgallan]

5. So, the only just punishment for scorning the eternal good is eternal bad.

I look at it as billions of tortured people, tortured because a god made a bunch of flawed children. If I allowed the torture of my child I'd be looked at as about as evil as possible. Even if my child was a handful. But it is somehow okay if a (posited) god does it. You can rationalize it to meet your standards of logic. It couldn't work for me. I don't think that way.

Without questioning the merit of your former faith--and I do not know what tha was--I'm wondering where you were. We you the true believer, ready and willing to missionize and evangelize?

I did the LDS for awhile, but with them I just found another illogical god, another religion, and a culture which was so different from the way I was raised, that to say I didn't fit in was an understatement. My religious experience before that was as a young teen. Full out with absolutely no parental involvement. But between issues relating to science, and a scary posited god, that went away.

There is is theory out there that says human brains are genetically wired to have higher power based beliefs. For whatever reason, in my family, a lot of us are not 'wired' to be believers.

[prisonchaplain]

5. So, the only just punishment for scorning the eternal good is eternal bad.

I look at it as billions of tortured people, tortured because a god made a bunch of flawed children. If I allowed the torture of my child I'd be looked at as about as evil as possible. Even if my child was a handful. But it is somehow okay if a (posited) god does it. You can rationalize it to meet your standards of logic. It couldn't work for me. I don't think that way.

We are not the offspring of God--we are his creation. In a sense, we're more akin to the painting an artist produces. God creates us with the freedom to choose good vs. evil. Those who choose good, he redeems. Those who choose evil, he punishes. There's an almost Darwinian justice to it.

I did the LDS for awhile, but with them I just found another illogical god, another religion, and a culture which was so different from the way I was raised, that to say I didn't fit in was an understatement. My religious experience before that was as a young teen. Full out with absolutely no parental involvement. But between issues relating to science, and a scary posited god, that went away.

I'm reading between the lines here, but my sense is that you were "testing the waters," and ultimately found nonbelief more rationale. So while you "did belief" for a season, unless you fully embraced it, I'm not sure you have a true comparison.

Irregardless, my basic premise is that if you measure goodness by good deeds and practical kindness, then the irreligious actually have more time to be good. However, if goodness includes worshipping God and leading others to worship, then my argument that belief will make you better than you are, stands.

There is is theory out there that says human brains are genetically wired to have higher power based beliefs. For whatever reason, in my family, a lot of us are not 'wired' to be believers.

"Everybody has a God-shaped emptiness in them," or something to that effect. There are many ways to numb such emptiness--especially if you are not sure what it is.

[sgallan]

We are not the offspring of God--we are his creation. In a sense, we're more akin to the painting an artist produces. God creates us with the freedom to choose good vs. evil. Those who choose good, he redeems. Those who choose evil, he punishes. There's an almost Darwinian justice to it.

And this is why I consider such a posited being as evil. It's a numbers game..... billions of people eternally tortured for eternity. Check out this number...... 1,000,000,000,000,000 years. Eternity is longer. I wouldn't allow the torture of even the worse persons of humanity for that time. Yet because this posited god, is god, somehow the ultimate in evil is okay.

I'm reading between the lines here, but my sense is that you were "testing the waters," and ultimately found nonbelief more rationale. So while you "did belief" for a season, unless you fully embraced it, I'm not sure you have a true comparison.

Yes, I have heard this many times. It is along the lines of.... since you didn't stay a believer you never must have really been a believer to begin with. It is the perfect rationale because it is perfectly circular reasoning.

Irregardless, my basic premise is that if you measure goodness by good deeds and practical kindness, then the irreligious actually have more time to be good. However, if goodness includes worshipping God and leading others to worship, then my argument that belief will make you better than you are, stands.

My take isn't so black and white as that. One of the persons I respect the most runs a evangelical church in the inner city in Kansas. His religion is his life. And the stuff he lives with..... well it's a lot like what you see in the prisons. A guy he's tried to help for years, took into his house, and all of that.... recently died of an OD. Yet as far as works away from his 'job', he also far exceeds me. It works both ways with him. My dad, the non-believer.... same thing. His good works have exceeded mine despite time constraints he's had. And I am sure we both know of believers, and non-believers, who do mostly nothing.... or worse. My point is; the world, and the people in it, are too diverse to make such either/or claims with regards to worship and what is better, or worse.

"Everybody has a God-shaped emptiness in them," or something to that effect. There are many ways to numb such emptiness--especially if you are not sure what it is.

This is a faith thing which isn't part of my reality.

[Guest Syble]

Not necessarily. You have to believe in something, if only the principle of power to be a good person, or you cannot be made better than you are.

Not necessarily.

To just not believe in God does not make you a better person.

Sure it can. I know several people who became better persons as non-believers. My dad for one.

It makes you a less fortunate one. The believers are not left to their own devices to become better, they have all the power and aids of the Holy Ghost and the Savior's love to become better people.

Yet so many so-called believers hardly seem to be better people. And many are quite the opposite. But mostly, people are just people..... there are good ones, and bad ones, and everything inbetween, whether they are believers or not. Since I don't believe, and you are unable to prove any specific god, and can't show me any additional value in the way I already live my life, I see no point in becoming a believer. And as a parent..... since I see value in the way I live, and many of my non-believer relatives believe, I am raising my kid with those values.... much as the believers raise their kids with their religious values.

I don't know what pool you are drawing your opinions from, but they are all wet. The christian people are what keeps this world spinning straight. Turn it over to the non-believers and it wouldn't be too long before you would have New Orleans kinds of crime stats all over the place.

[sgallan]

I don't know what pool you are drawing your opinions from, but they are warped. The christian people are what keeps this world spinning straight. Turn it over to the non-believers and it wouldn't be too long before you would have New Orleans kinds of crime stats all over the place.

Hmmm...... interesting comment. Do you consider this kind of marginalization and judgementalism a value of your faith? Are you able to understand why I might not want to inorporate your sort of religious based bigotry into my value system?

[Guest Syble]

I don't know what pool you are drawing your opinions from, but they are warped. The christian people are what keeps this world spinning straight. Turn it over to the non-believers and it wouldn't be too long before you would have New Orleans kinds of crime stats all over the place.

Hmmm...... interesting comment. Do you consider this kind of marginalization and judgementalism a value of your faith? Are you able to understand why I might not want to inorporate your sort of religious based bigotry into my value system?

I find it to be a proven fact of life.

[sgallan]

I find it to be a proven fact of life.

Hey, if it works for you..... then it does. And if it helps you get through life in a good way - as much as I can't comprehend it - then I would even suggest you keep this attitude.

[Guest Syble]

I find it to be a proven fact of life.

Hey, if it works for you..... then it does. And if it helps you get through life in a good way - as much as I can't comprehend it - then I would even suggest you keep this attitude.

You are a great guy sgallon. :)

[Ray]

On the “Hell” thing… it’s a mistaken idea to believe that it is God who will send us to “Hell”… or that it is God who will make us suffer for being the person(s) we have chosen to be.

The truth is that God will send us to “Heaven”… to one of the many mansions which are there… when we have shown how “happy” we want to be, based on how we have lived our lives here and what truly makes us happy.

For instance, God will send thieves to live among thieves, but not among others who don’t steal.

And God will send liars to live among liars, but not among others who don’t tell lies.

And God will send those who like contention to live among others who like contention, but not among others who don’t like it.

And God will send adulterers to live among adulterers, but not among others who do not commit adultery.

And God will send murderers to live among murders, but not among others who don’t murder or wouldn't “murder” if they could.

etc... etc... etc...

And btw, I’m referring to those who "do" those bad things, and not to those who have “done” them and then fully repented, having enough strength and firm conviction to never “do” those things again.

Or in other words, what God offers is called “salvation”, which is to be delivered from others who do not live or try to live as “good” a life as you or I try to live, knowing that those who don't indulge in “sins” are not happy living among others who do indulge in them, while also knowing we will all be “happier” without any “bad” influences in our lives.

And personally, I believe the best that any of us can hope for is to be able to live where God lives, while living our lives as God does, as long as we truly want all that is “good” in life, without any of the “bad”.

Oh, and Scott…while you seem to enjoy pointing your finger at God for killing some people on occasions, you are simply showing that you don’t know the big picture and the fact that God can righteously remove "bad" people from this Earth when He has seen enough of what they have chosen to do.

Oh, and prisonchaplain… God, our heavenly Father, is our literal Father in heaven, and we truly are His children, spiritually born in Heaven before being physically born on this Earth, hopefully spiritually born again through Jesus Christ our Savior.

And btw, while you can choose to not believe it, you can't choose to make it untrue.

[sgallan]

Hi Ray -

Since I do lurk it would rude not to acknowledge reading your post. I don't have much to say though as it might get moderated by a moderator with a god complex.... so I won't waste my time.

Take care. :)

[Serg]

Oh it is a rude comment.

I at first agreed with PrisonChaplain, and also with Ray.

Both brothers did very well in explaning this to you. But I guess that sister, when you dont want to believe in something, you just dont.

We'll try to respect it.

[Ray]

Oh it is a rude comment.

I at first agreed with PrisonChaplain, and also with Ray.

Both brothers did very well in explaning this to you. But I guess that sister, when you dont want to believe in something, you just dont.

We'll try to respect it.

Who are you speaking to, Serg?

If you're talking to sgallan, his name is Scott Gallan, who is a he and not a she.

And although I do not respect what he says, I do respect his right to say what he has on his mind, and I also respect him as a person and my brother in the sense that every man on this Earth is a person and my brother.

But if that's not who you're speaking to, I'm still curious to know who?