Atonement doesn't make sense Part 2

[boo60]

Hi

Lets try this again, can anyone explain the atonement? Just a simple why it was needed?

Why can't Heavenly father just forgive us without the atonement?

[pam]

Atonement of Jesus Christ - Mormonism, The Mormon Church, Beliefs, & Religion - MormonWiki

[Tarnished]

There are many examples that have been used when it comes to the atonement, however it sounds like you are having trouble understanding them. It is sort of like this, imagine you have a debt to someone, a debt that you really can not pay back, sort of like the debt the US owes. The debt is just too big and you will never be able to pay back all of it. So you pay back what you can. But the money is still owed, now imagine that someone steps up and offers to pay off the remainder of your debt. This is like the atonement.

Before the fall Adam and Eve could not sin, thus the atonement was not needed at that time. After the fall though, Adam and Eve had the ability to sin, and the atonement became necessary. The reason for this is because when we sin the punishment required for our sin is more than we would be able to pay, we repent which pays for a portion of our sin but not for all of it, Christ takes up the remainder and pays for it (or actually, has already paid for it), because of his portion of payment for our sin we are forgiven and the sin is forgotten.

You asked in your original post about Christ’s suffering in the garden and on the cross. We don’t know all the details of what was involved in that but we do know that the suffering the Christ endured would have killed any normal person. The fact that he is God’s physical son is why he was able to survive it. As for how he atoned for all sins, we really don’t know. You can ask him when you die. But we do know that he suffered for all sins, I don’t think anyone can imagine what kind of agony he went through for that, I don’t think we can ever begin to wrap our heads around that.

So to answer your question for this post simply: Our sins require more payment than we could give, thus Christ is necessary for us to be forgiven. He pays what we could not.

[Orrinian]

Hi

Lets try this again, can anyone explain the atonement? Just a simple why it was needed?

Why can't Heavenly father just forgive us without the atonement?

And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins. (Alma 11: 37)

I wish I could give a better answer to you, but it seems to me that God wouldn't grant forgiveness without some important things you should do before coming unto him. There must be some understandings and avowals coming from you before God can give forgiveness, and this is something one might believe or not. And how should forgiveness work without the atonement? The only thing I can say and what I have learned from LDS is that this is part of the plan God has made for us to lead us back to him.

I think, not to believe that atonement is necessary or it should not be necessary to hold on atonement would seem like turning away from belief, from an essential base of belief. A person who does not really believe would say: what about all that? If God exists he will certainly forgive automatically what I've done wrong. So why should I care about all this now?

And this is not what I would define as a real Christian belief. You see what I mean? It's the unbelievers and offenders of God who reject any kind of atonement. That's the difference one should be aware of, to say it in my own words.

[boo60]

I think I just clicked on the crucifixion.

So the atonement is two parts, garden and crucifixion.

CRUCIFIXION:

He was crucified because thats the way it was done. If he was here today, it would be firing squad or electric chair.

Instead of getting a beating by the Romans in jail and giving up the ghost, who could give testimony?

So it was kind of a media release/public relations exercise. Everyone saw him, no one could deny he was killed (spear), romans and jews saw him die. Everyone saw the weather turn nasty when he died.

So I'm fine with that so far. But why did he have to die. Was it also so everyone could see? Couldn't he have done the garden, then gone on for 30-40 years preaching?

[mikbone]

My favorite explanation:

A Personal Search for the Meaning of the Atonement

Edited September 19, 2010 by mikbone

[boo60]

Your messages have been great, I think I'm getting it.

I am/was getting confused about the fall and original sin and all that. I kept thinking Eve/Adam and the fall. Because of that quote "As descendants of Adam and Eve, all people inherit the effects of the Fall. In our fallen state, we are subject to opposition and temptation"

BUT its actually about the plan of salvation.

My question has always been the WHY.

Correct me if I'm wrong again.

Jesus Christ came up with the plan that we fall. We get agency essentially sinners.

Jesus Christ had to come and suffer for that plan. Why did he have to die for the plan? Is this one of those sealed in blood things?

The atonement is because of the plan of salvation?

[Justice]

Before you can really come to any understanding of the fall or atonement, you have to first understand the creation, the purpose for it, and why we needed to be mortal.

As you study the fall and atonement, don't forget to study the creation.

Answers like these really need to be found personally.

I'm not sure there's been too many people that have ever lived that have really understood it so completely. It might be best to concentrate on how it affects you.

[pam]

Your messages have been great, I think I'm getting it.

I am/was getting confused about the fall and original sin and all that. I kept thinking Eve/Adam and the fall. Because of that quote "As descendants of Adam and Eve, all people inherit the effects of the Fall. In our fallen state, we are subject to opposition and temptation"

BUT its actually about the plan of salvation.

My question has always been the WHY.

Correct me if I'm wrong again.

Jesus Christ came up with the plan that we fall. We get agency essentially sinners.

Jesus Christ had to come and suffer for that plan. Why did he have to die for the plan? Is this one of those sealed in blood things?

The atonement is because of the plan of salvation?

The Plan of Salvation is three-fold. It includes the creation, the fall and the atonement of Jesus Christ. It's all part of the plan.

[Justice]

Jesus Christ came up with the plan that we fall. We get agency essentially sinners.

The Plan of Salvation is known by many names in the scriptures, but in all cases it is Heavenly Father's plan, not Jesus Christ's.

Jesus Christ had to come and suffer for that plan. Why did he have to die for the plan? Is this one of those sealed in blood things?

Moses 6:

59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

The atonement is because of the plan of salvation?

Yes, the atonement was part of the plan, meaning, the fall was part of the plan, meaning, creation was part of the plan.

[pam]

In a manner to us incomprehensible and inexplicable, he [Christ] bore the weight of the sins of the whole world; not only of Adam, but of his posterity….

…We are told that without shedding of blood is no remission of sins. This is beyond our comprehension. Jesus had to take away sin by the sacrifice of Himself, the just for the unjust, but, previous to this grand sacrifice, these animals had to have their blood shed as types, Until the great antitype should offer up Himself once for all. And as He in His own person bore the sins of all and atoned for them by the sacrifice of Himself, so there came upon Him the weight and agony of ages and generations, the indescribable agony consequent upon this great sacrificial atonement wherein He bore the sins of the world, and suffered in His own person the consequences of an eternal law of God broken by man. Hence His profound grief, His indescribable anguish, His overpowering torture, all experienced in the submission to the eternal fiat of Jehovah and the requirements of an inexorable law.

John Taylor, Mediation and Atonement, Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, pp. 148-50

This explains a little about the requirement for the shedding of blood.

[boo60]

THANK YOU!!!

Wow, this is like finding a hidden treasure.

I'm finding I may not have the mental capacity to understand the Atonement, but I'm going to try.

[boo60]

That quote from Moses 6 goes on about blood. But doesn't that mean the blood in the garden, not the blood from the cross?

[Justice]

What blood in the Garden are you referring to?

[Dravin]

That quote from Moses 6 goes on about blood. But doesn't that mean the blood in the garden, not the blood from the cross?

The thing is I think people make a mistake when they try to separate the atonement into two parts (garden and cross) and take it to far, not that it isn't useful but when taken to far some people look at it as unconnected events in an itinerary of salvation. It's like looking at a car trip, when did it occur? When you got in the car? Or when you got out at your destination? It started in the garden and was finished on the cross, it wasn't atonement part 1 and part 2, it was atonement.

Also, it may help of you to think of it as sacrifice (referring to the Moses reference). By his sacrifice (of his life, or his blood) we are saved, but it isn't some mixture of blood cells, water, glucose, proteins, minerals and gases that saves us.

Edited September 15, 2010 by Dravin

[pam]

Boo60 may I ask. Are you a member and if so how long? It might help to know this information to know really how basic the answers need to be.

[boo60]

I think sometimes we do look too closely at principles until we can't see the forest for the trees. But when given this talk (3 days til Sunday) I was told the Atonement was in 2 parts, the garden and the crucifixion, at which point I thought. "what the heck?"

So now I'm studying like crazy trying to figure out what Part 1 is, and what Part 2 is. Because it seems to me, everyone else understands it! And I'm feeling like an egg who can't put the pieces of a puzzle together.

[boo60]

The blood in the garden. Wouldn't Moses 6 refer to the shedding from every pore that took place in the garden of gethsemene.

And embarrased to say, but I've done seminary/institute, can flick through my scripture mastery with ease, know the scripture. When I was younger I understood the crucifixion, and atonement as a child, and also as a youth would understand it.

Now as I have to explain it to others I keep getting stuck on the WHY?

Why did we need the garden of eden, couldn't they have come down and been created already knowing good from evil? But we needed it explained to us in a way we could understand so we have Genesis, creation, fall etc.

I don't understand the bits and pieces to the atonement. Overall its a great, I get to go to heaven. But on closer inspection, WHY?

I get that I sin.

I get that there needs to be a consequence.

I get that there is punishment, justice and mercy.

I just haven't made the connection between atonement and agency yet.... it feels like I'm almost there.

[Dravin]

I think sometimes we do look too closely at principles until we can't see the forest for the trees. But when given this talk (3 days til Sunday) I was told the Atonement was in 2 parts, the garden and the crucifixion, at which point I thought. "what the heck?"

So now I'm studying like crazy trying to figure out what Part 1 is, and what Part 2 is. Because it seems to me, everyone else understands it! And I'm feeling like an egg who can't put the pieces of a puzzle together.

In that context they probably want you to talk about how he bore the weight of sins in the garden and how he bore more physical suffering (as in additional, I have no clue how to compare the physical suffering quotient of the two events) and ultimately was left to himself (thus, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?") to complete/seal the atonement by being the ultimate and universal sacrifice on the cross.

When they say two parts they mean like a game can be broken into halves. The game is composed of both halves, but it isn't like the ball game consists of just one half or the other even though the culmination or finish is in the second half.

Edited September 15, 2010 by Dravin

[Therauh]

You are asking Why did Christ have to die???

If that's the case....because he was THEE ONLY ONE who could pay the debt.When sin entered the world so did the penalty of death.

He was sinless...perfect in heart and deed throughout his life.Nobody else could accomplish this because they all sinned and Christ was also a willing sacrifice.He had to do this to fulfill the law cause he was the only one whom never broke them so he couldn't be bound by the law.

By doing so he could overcome death for all of us there by opening the way back to Heavenly Father.

And through his sacrifice we can be forgiven our sins and overcome death also.

In agency we are given a choice to accept or reject Jesus's sacrifice.

If we accept him we must do the things he said.

If not then we have used our agency to reject him and what he did.

Hope that helps some.

Edited September 16, 2010 by Therauh

[Justice]

The blood in the garden. Wouldn't Moses 6 refer to the shedding from every pore that took place in the garden of gethsemene.

Ohhhh...

Sorry, I've been talking so much about the Garden of Eden lately, that one just went right by me. LOL

Indeed it would, and I believe you are on the right track.

I don't think it means they accomplished 2 different things, I think it just means there was pause while He was on trial and such.

2 places; 1 suffering.

If you're curious about the suffering, try D&C 19.

[mikbone]

I don't understand the bits and pieces to the atonement. Overall its a great, I get to go to heaven. But on closer inspection, WHY?

I get that I sin.

I get that there needs to be a consequence.

I get that there is punishment, justice and mercy.

I just haven't made the connection between atonement and agency yet.... it feels like I'm almost there.

I wouldn't get too upset about your lack of understanding. You are in good company

"I sense in a measure the meaning of His Atonement. I cannot comprehend it all. It is so vast in its reach and yet so intimate in its effect that it defies comprehension." LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Wondrous and True Story of Christmas, President Gordon B. Hinckley

[Justice]

Also keep in mind that the atonement was completed while he was alive. When he gave up the ghost, that part of His mission was finished. So, He didn't have to die to help bring about the atonement, but He had to die to help bring about the resurrection and victory over death.

From another perspective, the sufferings He endured to bring about the atonement was greater than man can bear and remain alive. So, in a sense, He already overcame death before He died.

[Dravin]

Is there an atonement without a resurrection though? The fall included both spiritual and physical death, without both being overcome we couldn't return to God in the fullness (be exalted and become like him) nor are the effects of the fall fully compensated for.

Sorry I'm probably meddling up the thread. I'll shut up.

Edited September 16, 2010 by Dravin

[Justice]

I guess what I meant was much like spiritual death had to overcome first, the atonement had to be performed to ransom us from spiritual death, which was caused by sin.

The resurrection does not ransom us from spiritual death, or from sin, but from physical death, or what we inherited without choice from the fall.