Questions about Jesus according to mormon theology

[AndrewCothran]

Do you believe that Jesus Christ though being the only begotten Son of God is God himself that he always existed and is not a created being as we are ?

[Blackmarch]

Do you believe that Jesus Christ though being the only begotten Son of God is God himself that he always existed and is not a created being as we are ?

I believe that he (Christ) has always existed, I also believe that Christ is the Begotten Son of the Father.

I also believe that our spirits have always existed as well.

the bible, the book of mormon, the pearl of great price, and the doctrine have helped me come to these.

Edited October 29, 2010 by Blackmarch

[FunkyTown]

Do you believe that Jesus Christ though being the only begotten Son of God is God himself that he always existed and is not a created being as we are ?

You're asking a bit of a loaded question. One that even you don't believe in.

If you're asking, 'Do we believe that Jesus Christ is the perfect, literal son of God', then yes. If you're asking, 'Do we believe Jesus Christ has always existed and was perfect from the beginning', then yes.

If you're asking, 'Do we believe that the physical body of Jesus Christ always existed', then no. I'm pretty sure scripture will support he was physically born of Mary.

What you're asking goes in to the pre-mortal existence. I'd suggest reading, 'Jesus the Christ' by James E. Talmage. It goes in to great depth on exactly this issue and defines to the letter who Jesus Christ was.

Essentially, your question requires more than a 30 second sound bite to answer.

[AndrewCothran]

You're asking a bit of a loaded question. One that even you don't believe in.

If you're asking, 'Do we believe that Jesus Christ is the perfect, literal son of God', then yes. If you're asking, 'Do we believe Jesus Christ has always existed and was perfect from the beginning', then yes.

If you're asking, 'Do we believe that the physical body of Jesus Christ always existed', then no. I'm pretty sure scripture will support he was physically born of Mary.

What you're asking goes in to the pre-mortal existence. I'd suggest reading, 'Jesus the Christ' by James E. Talmage. It goes in to great depth on exactly this issue and defines to the letter who Jesus Christ was.

Essentially, your question requires more than a 30 second sound bite to answer.

So you are telling me ..A person whom you do not know from Adams off ox that I do not believe the list of things that I am stating ..Hmmm I have been on some pretty powerful drugs but never one that convinced me that I could look into the heart and mind of another man especially one I don't know anything about ..This is wonderfull thank you ..

[AndrewCothran]

I believe that he (Christ) has always existed, I also believe that Christ is the Begotten Son of the Father.

I also believe that our spirits have always existed as well.

the bible, the book of mormon, the pearl of great price, and the doctrine have helped me come to these.

I follow what you are saying but it brings up another question ..Is it the teaching of the LDS that we in some form or other always existed ? Would that not imply that we in essence had no begining and are therefore not created beings ? By creation I mean creation out of nothing . I know i am probing deeply but I have been encouraged by LDS members to do so .

[FunkyTown]

So you are telling me ..A person whom you do not know from Adams off ox that I do not believe the list of things that I am stating ..Hmmm I have been on some pretty powerful drugs but never one that convinced me that I could look into the heart and mind of another man especially one I don't know anything about ..This is wonderfull thank you ..

Well... I have to admit it was an assumption that you didn't believe that Jesus Christ always had a physical body, so I'll ask.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ always existed with a physical body? And if so, as a full grown man?

I had assumed not, but I can see from your reply that I must have been mistaken.

[NeuroTypical]

We are not trinitarians. We reject the Athanasian Creed as something humans came up with to describe God - not something God told us about Himself. We believe in a Godhead, not a trinity. It is different than much of the rest of Christianity.

As for your specific questions, answer me this - what does it matter? Or, to put it differently, let's assume Mormons are wrong about some of the details about Christ and us. Take the Bible and tell us - what do we need to do in order to be saved in Christ Jesus?

If you think we need to believe that Jesus is and has always been God, please cite the verse. If you think we need to believe that we are created beings, please cite the verse. If you think we have to be right about certain details, cite the verse that is the basis for your belief.

Because if you can't, then I'd suggest you are adding stuff to the Bible, making a belief system out of it, and attempting to verbally beat us over the head with your unbiblical beliefs. Laying traps of sophistry, asking vaguely defined questions in order to trick us into saying something that conflicts with how you interpret a scripture.

LM

Edited October 29, 2010 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[AndrewCothran]

Well... I have to admit it was an assumption that you didn't believe that Jesus Christ always had a physical body, so I'll ask.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ always existed with a physical body? And if so, as a full grown man?

I had assumed not, but I can see from your reply that I must have been mistaken.

No I don,t believe that he always existed with a physical body nor as a full grown man ..No

And I guess this is where it gets confusing when one speaks of Jesus in his incarnation as whom we know as the fully God fully man known as Jesus Christ and then previously asGod the Son ..I will correct myself I should have made that clear .. In all actuality it is an extremely difficult subject to tackle ..Also I realize that we are dealing with two completely different theological landscapes ..Your suggestion for the reading material is one i will explore and is appreciated ,,My only objection to what you wrote is the audacity to tell someone else what they believe and dont believe which I realize was not well thought out on your part ..but leaving that aside the suggestion is appreciated . :)

[AndrewCothran]

We are not trinitarians. We reject the Athanasian Creed as something humans came up with to describe God - not something God told us about Himself. We believe in a Godhead, not a trinity. It is different than much of the rest of Christianity.

As for your specific questions, answer me this - what does it matter? Or, to put it differently, take the Bible and tell us - what do we need to do in order to be saved in Christ Jesus?

If you think we need to believe that Jesus is and has always been God, please cite the verse. If you think we need to believe that we are created beings, please cite the verse. If you think we have to be right about certain details, cite the verse that is the basis for your belief.

Because if you can't, then I'd suggest you are adding stuff to the Bible, making a belief system out of it, and attempting to verbally beat us over the head with your unbiblical beliefs. Laying traps of sophistry, trying to trick us into saying something that conflicts with how you interpret a scripture.

LM

The LDS teaches that contention is of the devil ..It takes two to engage in contention ..

You will find that I will not engage with you . May I remind you that this forum is about asking and discussing what the LDS believes which is what I am trying to understand ..If you have questions of a personal nature you may email me at [email protected]

That is all ...

[Just_A_Guy]

I follow what you are saying but it brings up another question ..Is it the teaching of the LDS that we in some form or other always existed ? Would that not imply that we in essence had no begining and are therefore not created beings ? By creation I mean creation out of nothing . I know i am probing deeply but I have been encouraged by LDS members to do so .

We believe God did "create" us in that He took us from a primitive state (what we call "intelligence") and organized us into something far superior. But we reject the idea of creation ex nihilo, whether it be the creation of man or the creation of the earth.

[Just_A_Guy]

The LDS teaches that contention is of the devil ..It takes two to engage in contention ..

Actually, it teaches that he who has the spirit of contention--the person who enjoys it, and does it for its own sake--is of the devil; not that the person who contends is automatically of the devil.

We are under scriptural mandate to contend for the faith when it is subjected to criticism; and I daresay you consider yourself to be under the same mandate.

Edited October 29, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[FunkyTown]

My only objection to what you wrote is the audacity to tell someone else what they believe and dont believe which I realize was not well thought out on your part ..but leaving that aside the suggestion is appreciated . :)

Well, if I was right about what you believed, then clearly it was well thought out.

I'm glad you're not going to engage in contention, but I think you'll find that LM won't contact you via private channels. Unfortunately, and I'm sure that isn't the case here, there have been a lot of examples in the past where people have come out and given private contact details as a means of causing trouble.

He would be a very silly sausage to contact you privately.

[AndrewCothran]

Well, if I was right about what you believed, then clearly it was well thought out.

I'm glad you're not going to engage in contention, but I think you'll find that LM won't contact you via private channels. Unfortunately, and I'm sure that isn't the case here, there have been a lot of examples in the past where people have come out and given private contact details as a means of causing trouble.

He would be a very silly sausage to contact you privately.

Let him do what he wishes I am not sparring with him . But your point is taken about private contact

My point is that if one has a personal problem with me especially if they are to levy accusations then it would be best to talk to me privately otherwise they are the one playing the fool..

As for assumptions they usually cause more harm than good ..but leaving that aside thank you again for your suggestion on the reading material ..

[AndrewCothran]

Actually, it teaches that he who has the spirit of contention--the person who enjoys it, and does it for its own sake--is of the devil; not that the person who contends is automatically of the devil.

We are under scriptural mandate to contend for the faith when it is subjected to criticism; and I daresay you consider yourself to be under the same mandate.

Wisdom is vindicated by her children .

[NeuroTypical]

Andrew, could I ask again that you answer some questions?

As for your specific questions, answer me this - what does it matter? Or, to put it differently, take the Bible and tell us - what do we need to do in order to be saved in Christ Jesus?

If you think we need to believe that Jesus is and has always been God, please cite the verse. If you think we need to believe that we are created beings, please cite the verse. If you think we have to be right about certain details, cite the verse that is the basis for your belief.

I see you are very good at verbal jiu jitsu, using your opponent's momentum against him. I'd like to see if you're equally as good at applying Jude 1:3. Come on, let's earnestly contend for our faiths, just like the Bible says we ought. I don't believe doing so is of the devil.

LM

[Just_A_Guy]

Wisdom is vindicated by her children .

Which is a good thing, since non sequiturs alone just don't cut it.

[AndrewCothran]

Andrew, could I ask again that you answer some questions?

I see you are very good at verbal jiu jitsu, using your opponent's momentum against him. I'd like to see if you're equally as good at applying Jude 1:3. Come on, let's earnestly contend for our faiths, just like the Bible says we ought. I don't believe doing so is of the devil.

LM

..I am here to ask questions and recieve answers from an LDS perspective and try to understand what you believe ..In order to do that i must express my own beliefs .You need to understand where I am coming from as I need to understand where you are coming from .This way you can provide me with an answer perhaps that i can understand . I am not trying to teach or preach to you if you think that you are mistaken .This is not a contest we are not at war with each each other . In all fairness for the sake of discussion . I will answer your questions according to what knowledge i have ...if you treat me with the respect i deserve otherwise I will not .. Go ahead and ask and i will try to my best to answer ..

[AndrewCothran]

Which is a good thing, since non sequiturs alone just don't cut it.

I suppose that would depend on whose judgment you ascribe to ..our own is so feeble and corrupt ..and yes i am talking about yours and mine and that of the whole human race ,,

Jesus actually said that Wisdom is vindicated by her children ..His judgment is always supreme ..that i think we can agree on ...:)

[NeuroTypical]

Very well Andrew. I apologize if I'm a bit overzealous in my posting style. And I apologize for any assumptions I've made regarding you or your intent here. In the decade plus that I've studied criticisms of my faith, I've sought out arguments and arguers. I have encountered questions like yours in many different arguments. They've mainly come from people who already have made their minds up about what me and my church teaches, and they pursue these lines of questions as a way to criticize my faith, reinforce their own beliefs, or convince others my faith is not correct. Forgive me if I made an unrighteous assumption, and lumped you in with them. You may or may not be, but until you demonstrate it clearly one way or the other, you are correct, you deserve respect.

So, all that said, here is my basic question. Let's assume for a moment that mormons are wrong on certain elements about the nature of God, man, and the universe. Let's say we figure Jesus is our elder brother, who was created or born of God spiritually, just as He was born of Mary physically after being overshadowed by the Holy Ghost. And let's say, for the sake of establishing my argument, we're wrong about that nature.

My question is, so what? When I'm on good terms with Christian critics of my faith, and I ask them what a man must do to be saved, they quote Bible verses about accepting Christ, repenting and being baptized, being born again through acceptance of the Savior, that sort of thing. They are unable to find anywhere in the Bible that says something like "If you would be saved, you must believe certain things about the nature of Jesus Christ".

Basically, the Bible seems to be taking the position that taking up Christ's cross is the important thing, and being correct about all the details of who Christ is, is not so important.

So, asking as respectfully as I can, what say ye?

LM

[Just_A_Guy]

Jesus actually said that Wisdom is vindicated by her children ..

Yes, I know.

His judgment is always supreme ..that i think we can agree on ...:)

Yes, we do.

[AndrewCothran]

We are not trinitarians. We reject the Athanasian Creed as something humans came up with to describe God - not something God told us about Himself. We believe in a Godhead, not a trinity. It is different than much of the rest of Christianity.

As for your specific questions, answer me this - what does it matter? Or, to put it differently, let's assume Mormons are wrong about some of the details about Christ and us. Take the Bible and tell us - what do we need to do in order to be saved in Christ Jesus?

If you think we need to believe that Jesus is and has always been God, please cite the verse. If you think we need to believe that we are created beings, please cite the verse. If you think we have to be right about certain details, cite the verse that is the basis for your belief.

Because if you can't, then I'd suggest you are adding stuff to the Bible, making a belief system out of it, and attempting to verbally beat us over the head with your unbiblical beliefs. Laying traps of sophistry, asking vaguely defined questions in order to trick us into saying something that conflicts with how you interpret a scripture.

LM

It matters because it matters to me what you believe about Jesus ,,I have been told you believe in a different Jesus ..I have also been told that that was false .If i am trying to understand what you believe about Jesus and you claim to love him to serve him to belong to his original church would you not want me to have a clear understanding rather than believe you worship an idol rather than the real and only Christ ? Secondly any question i have about the teachings of the LDS matter . Actually lds authorities encourage these types of questions you seem to be offended by them hostile even . You could at least try to be a little more civil ..Finally on this point any honest question that is not inappropriate is my right as a human being to ask ,,Its also my obligation as a human being to ask ..

Regarding salvation ,,I have to understand first what you mean by salvation in Christ Jesus .Different faith traditions have different beliefs about what that means . Are you asking what i believe it means ? If you mean salvation in every possible way i can answer that if you would like ..According to the Bible we are justified by faith for the sake of Christ alone and regenerated by the Holy Spirit ..

Do i believe that one must GET IT ALL RIGHT so to speak no of course not that would mean man is in control of his salvation and not God ..But let me point out there is a difference from knowing the truth and denying it and getting all the facts straight .

But does God save people in spite of their bad theology yes i believe so ..

While writing this i did not see your other post ..i accept your apology and i am more than happy to be friendly with you and i can understand the attacks and how that conditions ones reaction ...

Edited October 29, 2010 by AndrewCothran

[AndrewCothran]

Very well Andrew. I apologize if I'm a bit overzealous in my posting style. And I apologize for any assumptions I've made regarding you or your intent here. In the decade plus that I've studied criticisms of my faith, I've sought out arguments and arguers. I have encountered questions like yours in many different arguments. They've mainly come from people who already have made their minds up about what me and my church teaches, and they pursue these lines of questions as a way to criticize my faith, reinforce their own beliefs, or convince others my faith is not correct. Forgive me if I made an unrighteous assumption, and lumped you in with them. You may or may not be, but until you demonstrate it clearly one way or the other, you are correct, you deserve respect.

So, all that said, here is my basic question. Let's assume for a moment that mormons are wrong on certain elements about the nature of God, man, and the universe. Let's say we figure Jesus is our elder brother, who was created or born of God spiritually, just as He was born of Mary physically after being overshadowed by the Holy Ghost. And let's say, for the sake of establishing my argument, we're wrong about that nature.

My question is, so what? When I'm on good terms with Christian critics of my faith, and I ask them what a man must do to be saved, they quote Bible verses about accepting Christ, repenting and being baptized, being born again through acceptance of the Savior, that sort of thing. They are unable to find anywhere in the Bible that says something like "If you would be saved, you must believe certain things about the nature of Jesus Christ".

Basically, the Bible seems to be taking the position that taking up Christ's cross is the important thing, and being correct about all the details of who Christ is, is not so important.

So, asking as respectfully as I can, what say ye?

LM

Sure ..i didn't see this post it was numbered in the second part of this thread ,,And i understand i accept your apology and we are cool ....After seeing this post i edited my last post which was based on previous posts so if you get the original i apologize if i was offensive to you in fact i apologize for being offensive to you on a personal level period w

I will try to answer that question as best i can ...

I see what you are saying ..Does the bible state that you must understand every detail about Jesus in order to be right with God no ..A good example of this is a child .many children believe in and trust Jesus but don't understand every thing the scripture teaches about Jesus ..The reason i asked the question was in part to understand what the LDS teaches about Christ ...And does that matter as an investigator it would because you see i have been presented with more than one view ,,i mean thats why i am on and lds site asking questions of lds members lol ...So in the whole scheme of things to follow Christ no you dont have to understand it all .. But you want to be certain you are following Christ .. and that is of the upmost importance ..right?

[NeuroTypical]

Yep - fairly answered.

So, I guess a more appropriate thing to discuss, is how far off can someone be about who Jesus is, and still be following Him? Here are various smatterings of what I've heard from different corners of Christianity:

* Some black liberation churches teach that Jesus was put down by the man, and a good follower will try to put the man down in retaliation.

* Some evangelical countercultists figure they are doing the Lord's will when they lie and decieve about themselves in order to score points against other faiths.

* In America, various nondenominational churches seem to believe more and more every year that Jesus is your nonjudgemental supportive pal, like someone you'd want to go to an AA meeting with.

* Some of Christianity believe that every human is a child of God, others believe that only the saved are God's children.

* Wildly differing views of predestination vs agency vs foreordenation - for some, humans are rational actors who can choose to follow Christ. For others, humans have no choice in the matter - God saves whom is predestined to save, and a person can't affect the outcome no matter what the person does.

* The role of authority - Catholics vs. protestants vs. restorationists - Is a loose conglomeration of followers a "church"? Can man just assume that if he feels called to the work, he's called? Do pastors/popes/prophets/reverends/individuals have the authority to act in the name of God and form churches or baptize or collect tithings or build buildings?

Of course, we all figure we're right, and the other guy is wrong. But to any of us get to deny Christianity to the wrong ones? What point must be reached before someone isn't following Christ and is now following a false christ?

My general notion is that if someone tells me they're a follower of Jesus Christ, I tend to believe them, unless I see some pretty clear unambiguous differences between what the scriptures claim and what I'm hearing from someone. I might argue with them about the details, but I'm happy to think about the exchange as a discussion between Christians.

What do you think, Andrew? If Joseph Smith saw God and Jesus, and they were not the same person, and we base our belief system on the understanding that it's possible to shake Christ's hand without having come into physical contact with God the father, does that mean we follow a false Christ?

LM

Edited October 29, 2010 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[AndrewCothran]

Yep - fairly answered.

So, I guess a more appropriate thing to discuss, is how far off can someone be about who Jesus is, and still be following Him? Here are various smatterings of what I've heard from different corners of Christianity:

* Some black liberation churches teach that Jesus was put down by the man, and a good follower will try to put the man down in retaliation.

* Some evangelical countercultists figure they are doing the Lord's will when they lie and decieve about themselves in order to score points against other faiths.

* In America, various nondenominational churches seem to believe more and more every year that Jesus is your nonjudgemental supportive pal, like someone you'd want to go to an AA meeting with.

* Some of Christianity believe that every human is a child of God, others believe that only the saved are God's children.

* Wildly differing views of predestination vs agency vs foreordenation - for some, humans are rational actors who can choose to follow Christ. For others, humans have no choice in the matter - God saves whom is predestined to save, and a person can't affect the outcome no matter what the person does.

* The role of authority - Catholics vs. protestants vs. restorationists - Is a loose conglomeration of followers a "church"? Can man just assume that if he feels called to the work, he's called? Do pastors/popes/prophets/reverends/individuals have the authority to act in the name of God and form churches or baptize or collect tithings or build buildings?

Of course, we all figure we're right, and the other guy is wrong. But to any of us get to deny Christianity to the wrong ones? What point must be reached before someone isn't following Christ and is now following a false christ?

My general notion is that if someone tells me they're a follower of Jesus Christ, I tend to believe them, unless I see some pretty clear unambiguous differences between what the scriptures claim and what I'm hearing from someone. I might argue with them about the details, but I'm happy to think about the exchange as a discussion between Christians.

What do you think, Andrew? If Joseph Smith saw God and Jesus, and they were not the same person, and we base our belief system on the understanding that it's possible to shake Christ's hand without having come into physical contact with God the father, does that mean we follow a false Christ?

LM

LM I will state my views for each one that you put an asterik by with a number

1.That is anti christ pure and simple and does not belong anywhere in Christianity .

2 Those tactics are wrong and they are not following Christ when they engage in them

3. That thinking is so liberal and twisted i just laughed when i read though God forgive me because its not funny its sad .

4.This will seem contradictory but I don't know how to explain it except in contradictions

The scripture says we all are children of God through faith in Jesus Christ ..

But I also believe that we may be children of God in the sense that we are created by God

So those who believe both I dont have a conflict with in that sense . But for me the jury is still out on the later but God has already ruled on the former ..And Christians are children of God by the new birth .

I do not believe that God predestines anyone to damnation ..I struggle with Free Will in regards to spiritual matters ..I believe there are many devout Christians in various denominations even though they may be wrong about certain doctrines ..

No none of us get to deny Christianity to anyone however there are certain markers that are very obvious . For example if you combine wicca with Christianity you are obviously not a Christian ..

As for our fellow man I don't think either one us are setting ourselves up as judges .

Now to your question about Joseph Smith and God and Christ .. No I don't believe that .God is one .If you are in the presence of Christ you are in the presence of the Father and the Holy Spirit ..There is one God in three divine persons ..One does not exist with out the other ..I understand that you do not believe that .. As for the vision Joseph Smith made how many accounts was it ? Was it four or seven ? Now that being said and I want you to understand this ..That does not mean I do not believe that God the father and Jesus Christ could have appeared to Joseph Smith in a vision .. I do not believe the account that he gave of his vision .. Or at least the account that is taken as truth by the LDS. Keep in mind you are asking a protestant these questions and you will get protestant answers .

Do I believe that all members of the LDS worship a false Christ ..I could not say ..To say that would be to assume to know the heart of each and every one and i don't even know my own heart .. so no i could not answer that ..

[Blackmarch]

I follow what you are saying but it brings up another question ..Is it the teaching of the LDS that we in some form or other always existed ? Would that not imply that we in essence had no begining and are therefore not created beings ? By creation I mean creation out of nothing . I know i am probing deeply but I have been encouraged by LDS members to do so .

pretty much... however I'd like to note that within LDS thought creation doesn't just mean to form something completely out of nothing, rather that it means to organise, build and construct.

We are taught in the DOctrine in covenants that the spirit that forms our spirit bodies is neither created or destroyed... however there is mention of it being organised, and that was done by God-

Doctrine and covenants 93:23-34

23 Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth;

24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;

25 And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning.

26 The Spirit of truth is of God. I am the Spirit of truth, and John bore record of me, saying: He breceived a fulness of truth, yea, even of all truth;

27 And no man receiveth a fulness unless he keepeth his commandments.

28 He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things.

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

30 All truth is independent in that asphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

31 Behold, here is the aagency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.

32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the alight is under condemnation.

33 For man is aspirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.