Marriage In Heaven Disproved

[Christos]

I didn't actually know till recently that it is recorded in Mark (and Matthew) that Jesus the Christ tought about marriage in Heaven.

I've always believed that logically for the church of Christ to become the bride of Christ the church must not be married in any other part.

Mark12:24-25

For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Is this not utter proof of the non-existance of earthly marriage sustaining through to heaven.

Remember that when we are raised again we will be new people.

1 Corinthians 15:52

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

So what is the meaning of this thread?

Basically if you do believe that marriage sustains through to Heaven please give a valid Biblical (excuding LDS scriptures) proof of it. :)

[Palerider]

and If I do as you requested does this mean you are going back to the LDS Faith....and if not whats the point in having this discussion???.....what are we gonna get from it?????

[prisonchaplain]

and If I do as you requested does this mean you are going back to the LDS Faith....and if not whats the point in having this discussion???.....what are we gonna get from it?????

You might help some of the 20-30% of us at ldstalk who are not Mormon to understand why you teach that "families are forever." Remember, your audience is much larger than the guy who starts the string.

[Snow]

Marriage In Heaven Disproved, By Jesus

Uh-huh... so we should trust you to instruct us all on what Jesus said and meant?

Yeah - that's not gonna happen.

We understand the scripture to talk about those who are not married, that once in heaven, will not then marry and will instead be angels. We believe that marriage is one of the ordinance that needs to be performed in the here and now - in mortality.

Besides which, the story (see also Matthew 22) refers to 8 specfic people, probably worldly Sadducees who rejected Christ. It doesn't need apply to all people.

In fact it was this very set of verses that motivated Joseph Smith to inquire of the Lord concerning marriage. It meshes perfectly with our understanding of the gospel in general and eternal marriage in particular.

[Amphiblitz]

Here's one member's answer:

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/love.shtml#heaven

BTW--Good to see you again, Christos.

[prisonchaplain]

Marriage In Heaven Disproved, By Jesus

We understand the scripture to talk about those who are not married, that once in heaven, will not then marry and will instead be angels. We believe that marriage is one of the ordinance that needs to be performed in the here and now - in mortality.

Besides which, the story (see also Matthew 22) refers to 8 specfic people, probably worldly Sadducees who rejected Christ. It doesn't need apply to all people.

In fact it was this very set of verses that motivated Joseph Smith to inquire of the Lord concerning marriage. It meshes perfectly with our understanding of the gospel in general and eternal marriage in particular.

Interesting. I also read the reference from the later poster. It may help us to reread the query that was posed to Jesus in Matthew 22:

24Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. 25Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: 26Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. 27And last of all the woman died also. 28Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.

It seems to me that the LDS answer: They won't even get in heaven--or at least not into a kingdom that has marriage, is a neat solution. The further explanation, only marriages on earth that are properly sealed will be forever, answers the question for modern-day LDS members. But, what of the audience of Jesus' day? Would they not have wanted to know what would happen if a godly woman had seven husbands, who were all brothers, once they reached heaven? Yes, Jesus got to the heart of the trick question--you're not even right with God, that you think you'll have wives in a resurrection you don't even believe in!

However, IF Mormon theology were not an issue here, it would be something of an unusual reading to see two groups being discussed. It's much easier to see Jesus responding: In heaven we'll be like angels (note that they'll not actually be angels, but only like angels)--IN THAT we'll neither give nor be given in marriage. And, since the question presupposes marriage on earth, it would be a strange reading to say--Jesus only referred to the lack of marrying itself in heaven, not the continuation of existing marriages--since the original question was about existing marriages.

BTW, is the correct answer (assuming that she and her spouses were indeed godly) that she'll be a wife to all the husbands for eternity?

[Outshined]

More on the subject:

Link

Link

Link

There is much more to it than you can understand from reading a verse or two without context.

[Christos]

More on the subject:

Link

Link

Link

There is much more to it than you can understand from reading a verse or two without context.

If you want to look at it in context you may.

I did not choose to remove it from context I only posted the Relevent area of that chapter.

As for "who am I to teach". I am no one. I myself am only human BUT I was quoting the gospel of Christ. That is not my teaching but the teaching of Jesus the Christ.

If I were to copy something from Einstien it would not be my teaching but his teaching.

[Christos]

and If I do as you requested does this mean you are going back to the LDS Faith....and if not whats the point in having this discussion???.....what are we gonna get from it?????

That sounds very uncivil.

As PrisonChaplain said, the audience is not only the thread starter.

Are you trying to push me away from the LDS religion?

It seems strange, you are called to evangelise but you would rather critisize.

Kyrie Eleison

Chris

[Snow]

As for "who am I to teach". I am no one. I myself am only human BUT I was quoting the gospel of Christ. That is not my teaching but the teaching of Jesus the Christ.

Don't be manipulative and pretend you are not.

You copied some verses and then told us what they mean. That's teaching your opinion. I see the exact same verses and understand them differently.

[Palerider]

<div class='quotemain'>

and If I do as you requested does this mean you are going back to the LDS Faith....and if not whats the point in having this discussion???.....what are we gonna get from it?????

That sounds very uncivil.

As PrisonChaplain said, the audience is not only the thread starter.

Are you trying to push me away from the LDS religion?

It seems strange, you are called to evangelise but you would rather critisize.

Kyrie Eleison

Chris

wait a minute......you are calling me uncivil????......lets go back...you were the one on your..."Iam unsure" post that asked a question and them became upset and said...."I am not coming back here anymore " or something like that...and now you come back and ask another question and if you go back you will see your answers to your question.....

[Christos]

<div class='quotemain'>

and If I do as you requested does this mean you are going back to the LDS Faith....and if not whats the point in having this discussion???.....what are we gonna get from it?????

That sounds very uncivil.

As PrisonChaplain said, the audience is not only the thread starter.

Are you trying to push me away from the LDS religion?

It seems strange, you are called to evangelise but you would rather critisize.

Kyrie Eleison

Chris

How do you understand them then?

That IS why I posted this thread.

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

and If I do as you requested does this mean you are going back to the LDS Faith....and if not whats the point in having this discussion???.....what are we gonna get from it?????

That sounds very uncivil.

As PrisonChaplain said, the audience is not only the thread starter.

Are you trying to push me away from the LDS religion?

It seems strange, you are called to evangelise but you would rather critisize.

Kyrie Eleison

Chris

wait a minute......you are calling me uncivil????......lets go back...you were the one on your..."Iam unsure" post that asked a question and them became upset and said...."I am not coming back here anymore " or something like that...and now you come back and ask another question and if you go back you will see your answers to your question.....

Obviously there is a difference in the definition of "civil" between us.

This does not require any further comments.

[Christos]

To put it into context.

Mark 12

1And he began to speak unto them by parables. A certain man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about it, and digged a place for the winefat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country.

2And at the season he sent to the husbandmen a servant, that he might receive from the husbandmen of the fruit of the vineyard.

3And they caught him, and beat him, and sent him away empty.

4And again he sent unto them another servant; and at him they cast stones, and wounded him in the head, and sent him away shamefully handled.

5And again he sent another; and him they killed, and many others; beating some, and killing some.

6Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son.

7But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours.'

8And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard.

9What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.

10And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:

11This was the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

12And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they left him, and went their way.

13And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in his words.

14And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not?

15Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it.

16And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's.

17And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

18Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,

19Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.

20Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed.

21And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise.

22And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also.

23In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.

24And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

25For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

26And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

27He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

28And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

32And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

33And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

34And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

35And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David?

36For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

37David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.

38And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces,

39And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts:

40Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

41And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.

42And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.

43And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

44For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

Yes, the passage starts off with the ancient jewish law/tradition that a woman when married must concieve a son, if the husband dies she must seek another. This was partly because of the little role that women had in society and that without a husband couldn't really live, no income, little support.

But the heart of this passage is when Jesus is asked where the marriage goes after death and which husband she would be married to.

To which Jesus replies 25For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Angels need not marry because they are in the court of God. Praising through eternity. Also when we die we (the church) will be the bride of Christ (can't find the particular verse I am looking for, it is in Revelations but here is a verse with similar meaning)

Ephesians 5:23

For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Saviour.

Though of course that verse does not directly say that the church is the bride of Christ (wish I could find that verse) it talks about Christ being the head of the church as the husband is the head of the wife, that dates back to Leviticus to the law that women must wear head coverings when worshipping or preaching, this law is re-instated in the new covenant in Pauls epistle to the Corinthians

I would like to add that since I am not God, and never can become like God due to the very nature of me that I am not infalliable and though my opinons may not be equal to the divine wisdom of the Almighty I have tried my Earthly best to convey what I would like to say.

Kyrie Eleison

Chris

BTW, the not having divine wisdom bit is usually assumed by people, I haven't yet come across a person who is totally infalliable and is a fount of divine wisdom. Maybe I will one day but I doubt it.

[Ray]

I'm attaching a document showing my understanding of this issue, which I know is inspired by God.

And btw, please try to realize that any question concerning the gospel has already been asked and answered by thousands if not millions of people, so use that knowledge while trying to investigate the best sources of information.

[Outshined]

If you want to look at it in context you may.

It certainly makes more sense when you do.

I did not choose to remove it from context I only posted the Relevent area of that chapter.

But out of context it reads differently, as illustrated in the links provided.

As for "who am I to teach". I am no one. I myself am only human BUT I was quoting the gospel of Christ. That is not my teaching but the teaching of Jesus the Christ.

I never said anything about "who are you to teach". However, I don't think you've represented what Christ was teaching in this passage, but your own interpretation of it.

If I were to copy something from Einstien it would not be my teaching but his teaching.

And hopefully it would accurately reflect what Einstein actually taught. B)

[thedreadedbat]

Pffft! As if there is ANY non scriptural support for heaven OR marriage in it. How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? You'd do just as well to go jump in a lake.

[prisonchaplain]

More on the subject:

Link

There is much more to it than you can understand from reading a verse or two without context.

Okay, I read the FAIR article (btw, links #2 & #3 seem unrelated to our topic). I surmize the following arguments:

1. LDS doctrine of the Word of God being defined by God's prophets, not by interpreters, means that Mormons need not prove that the Bible itself says that there will be marrying after the resurrection. Only that the Bible does not contradict such a teaching.

Response: If you are trying to reassure faithful Momons, that would be true. If you are trying to convince non-LDS Christians of this specific teaching, then you would need to take on that burden of biblical evidence.

2. The Sadduccees were trying to trick Jesus.

Response: True that. They failed.

3. There is a big difference between "giving in marriage" and "being married." Jesus only says that there will be no new marriages in heaven.

Response: Such a reading means that Jesus did not address the question at all. The question was not self-contradictory, as the article claimed. While the Anchor Bible commentary cited does argue that the Sadduccees' question was mundane, given the setting proposed--the heavenly kingdom of God, the reason it was mundane is different. IF there will be no marriage in heaven, because we will all be like angels, then it would not matter how many husbands the woman had. In the kingdom we'll be the bride of Christ--married to him.

My conclusion: Mormons take great pride and confidence in their stance that "families are forever." In a sense, much of the appeal of the faith rests on this notion. And, true to the first argument, faithful LDS adherents are unlikely to be moved by Protestant interpretations, no matter how plain and obvious they seem to us. On the other hand, those that wish to attract non-LDS to this teaching--perhaps as a bridge to faith in the Church and the LDS plan of salvation, will indeed need to convince reticent investigators that the Bible alone, at least more likely than not SUPPORTS (as opposed to merely not likely contradicts) eternal marriage.

[Outshined]

Okay, I read the FAIR article (btw, links #2 & #3 seem unrelated to our topic).

Actually links 2 & 3 address the subject of eternal marriage, which is indeed the topic.

Even when I was an Evangelical, I never believed that God dissolves our marriages upon death, and the Bible does not say that He does, which is quite plain and obvious to me.

Absolutely there is a difference in being married and being given in marriage; they are two very different things.

[Ray]

Even when I was an Evangelical...

I didn't know you came from an Evangelical background, Outshined. Cool!

That means there are at least two of us who can understand where prisonchaplain is coming from. :)

[Outshined]

I didn't know you came from an Evangelical background, Outshined. Cool!

That means there are at least two of us who can understand where prisonchaplain is coming from. :)

Yep, I was raised in West Virginia by my grandparents, and my grandfather was a Baptist preacher. I was supposed to follow in his footsteps (even attended seminary in preparation) but it didn't work out.

[Ray]

Heh, sounds a lot like me. My Dad and Granddad were both preachers for the ‘Church of Christ’, and I was preaching some too, and just before I was ready to go back to college to get my “papers” so that I could get a “job” and get “paid” for being a preacher in “my own” church, just like my Dad and Granddad, I met a returned missionary and, heh, well, “that” didn’t work out either.

But I wouldn’t trade my life's experience for all of the money in the world. :)

[Outshined]

But I wouldn’t trade my life's experience for all of the money in the world. :)

Ditto.

[prisonchaplain]

<div class='quotemain'>

Okay, I read the FAIR article (btw, links #2 & #3 seem unrelated to our topic).

Actually links 2 & 3 address the subject of eternal marriage, which is indeed the topic.

Okay, we're both wrong. #1 & #3 are about eternal marriage. I responded to the first, since it was more detailed. #2 is about lotteries, which through me off.

Even when I was an Evangelical, I never believed that God dissolves our marriages upon death, and the Bible does not say that He does, which is quite plain and obvious to me.

I'm curious about this. Why didn't you? Gut instinct? I don't think any evangelical churches teach that marriage continues after death.

Absolutely there is a difference in being married and being given in marriage; they are two very different things.

In the context of the gospel passage and the story of the woman with 7 husbands, had Jesus actually intended to say, "In response to your inquiry about this woman married seven times, my response is that there will be no getting married in heaven." Would you not say, "Huh? What does that have to do with what we asked?"

Such an answer would not have been a retort, but an irrelevancy.

[shanstress70]

Even when I was an Evangelical, I never believed that God dissolves our marriages upon death, and the Bible does not say that He does, which is quite plain and obvious to me.

I'm curious about this. Why didn't you? Gut instinct? I don't think any evangelical churches teach that marriage continues after death.

I wasn't born evangelical, but I've never believed this either. I was brought up in a UCC church, and I always heard that no one is married in Heaven.

And just because you belong to a certain church, it doesn't mean that you can't disagree with some ideas and think freely. God gave us our brain for a reason!

This is one reason why I haven't joined another church since leaving Mormonism. I have issues with every church out there. I have finally realized that I don't HAVE to agree with everything. There are churches that don't pretend to know everything about everything, and they allow members to come to their own conclusions.

[prisonchaplain]

<div class='quotemain'>

I didn't know you came from an Evangelical background, Outshined. Cool!

That means there are at least two of us who can understand where prisonchaplain is coming from. :)

Yep, I was raised in West Virginia by my grandparents, and my grandfather was a Baptist preacher. I was supposed to follow in his footsteps (even attended seminary in preparation) but it didn't work out.

I think I understand where I'm coming from, so that's three of us? BTW, Outshine, just check out your website. You served in Korea? For how long and where? I spent 6.5 years in God's Army (missionary work), mostly in Taejon.

Looks like we're all more connected than we thought, eh?