Hurt, scared, confused...

[Faded]

It does sound like the biggest hurdles are

A.) For her to stop making excuses infidelity. She's got to snap out of it and realize that no excuse is EVER a good excuse, and it is by making excuses that you talk yourself into doing things you ordinarily would never do in a million years. Excuses lead to relapse.

B.) Coming up with a long-term plan that will keep her from straying. With alcoholics, they must stay away from bars and social gatherings where there is a lot of drinking. With internet pornography addicts, you take away all unsupervised computer usage. In all cases, you drastically alter your lifestyle in order to minimize the chance for familiar routines to let the sinner fall right back into bad habits.

When my wife Tarnished confessed to me that she'd cheated on me I was devastated. I also was determined that if we were going to stay together then we needed to do everything possible to keep it from ever happening again -- and if she was unwilling then the marriage was doomed anyways, so why bother? My wife is absolutely wonderful and she agreed to do whatever it took. She had to sever all contact with the man. She had to go through a period where she wasn't allowed to go to social networking sites and her getting back to them was up to me -- when I felt I could trust her. She agreed to do a number of things to get her focus squarely back on her marriage. She agreed that without any conditions whatsoever, she would not ever be alone with ANY man that she is not related to by blood. She agreed that we would work on goals to improve our overall spiritual and physical health. When she was allowed back onto social networking pages, she agreed to make her pages accessible only to friends and to only add male friends that we both know and only if I agreed to it. She's willing to let me look over her recent computer usage, etc. She had to focus more on keeping the house clean. At the beginning of her repentance process, she seldom ever cleaned, rarely cooked, never did dishes and laundry, etc. I wasn't especially great, but whatever got done was largely done by me. She needed to snap out of that and commit to doing a better job of keeping a clean house -- because that's where our marriage lives.

Now all of this may sound mean or like I was punishing her for what she did. Nothing could be further from the truth. I wanted to be lead by the Spirit to help her so that she could fully and completely recover from everything that led to the affair, and that is where the Spirit led me: More or less, she needed to be given lots of things to do to prove to herself and to me (and more importantly to herself) how much she valued her marriage. It's worked out well so far.

I'm not going to say it's the best approach for all circumstances, but it's not a bad approach for pretty much anyone in this sort of situation -- but it's only useful if the adulterer is willing to do whatever it takes. If they're willing, then strange as it may sound, this method will lead them to an increased appreciation and value for their marriage and spouse. It only makes sense that when you spend a lot of effort on something, you tend to value it more. When you neglect something, you don't value it.

If there is any way to prevent all contact between your brother and your wife, I'd highly recommend doing it. Difficult since it's your brother, but I think it's best that they never be at the same place at the same time unless there is no conceivable way to avoid it. Obviously, something about him is tending to pull her back into being an idiot -- lust does that of course -- and the less interaction she has with him the better for HER sake. If you can arrange things such that he cannot know any phone number but your personal cell and work numbers, that would also be wise. Even the slightest contact can become a trigger for your wife to fall back into the same mistakes. It's also in your brother's best interests.

Edited November 10, 2010 by Faded

[Guest mirancs8]

Dear John,

I may be way off saying this, but from what I am reading I see something that can be a possibility as to why she is behaving in the destructive pattern year after year.

She seems to have dissociated her emotions from the relationship with you because in her mind, whether she realizes it or not, she can't believe that someone could actually love her the way that you do. It scares her. It's not you per se that she fears its the reality of someone truly and genuinely loving her that puts fear in her. She continues to keep a disconnect in the relationship with you because she knows there is no way that your love is true. To justify her low self esteem she proves it but having these little flings. In her mind she is not worthy of your love.

These types of behaviors that she is displaying can be the root of much deeper issues/trauma that at the time that it occurred had not been dealt with properly. My question to you then would be (without details) did she go through any type of trauma in her childhood, teen years? Did she experience sexual abuse or the like?

Now being that you have Psych experience I'm sure you can see one might perceive her behavior as being somewhat classic Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD). Sleeping around, fear of abandonment, turbulent break up/make ups etc. I on the other hand wouldn't be so quick to think that as I'm sure there is much more to the story then what you have shared. One thing that stands out to me is that she had an affair with your brother. That shows me she is emotionally disconnected from you as to how she can even think of doing that.

I am glad to see that you are not quick to diagnose her with "something" because there can be some trauma that is causing her to act out. Sometimes when someone has been through something very traumatic they will act out for attention. This is their coping mechanism.

I have a sensitive spot for those who suffer from depression and such mental health issues. I think many times they are so very misunderstood and quickly judged.

I commend you for being such a supportive husband. I know this is very hard and I don't know if I could have had the strength you have had to put up with it. Might I suggest that you take things a level higher and seek professional therapy? Unless you already have that would be a great place to start. The Bishop can help with the repentance process but I think you both need some deep therapy.

[John11111]

As a matter of fact she did have a lot of trouble at home when she was younger. I wouldnt say anything extraordinary or way out of line but she did have a lot of trouble with her older brother and younger sister.

They did argue a lot and her older brother even hit her with something which required her to have to go to the hospital and get stitches. I always took it as sibling rivalry gone bad. That and her mom was never really supportive of her at all, her mom always favored her sister and pretty much ignored my wife as she was growing up.

Not only that but we battled for a long time with low self esteem. When we dated she had a very very low sef esteem and I helped her with that for a long time. I believed we had eventually got over it as I havnt really seen any of that for years now. Maybe I just wasnt looking for it though?

I guess its definetly something to think about and in a way it sort of fits. SO far we still reading his needs her needs 1-2 chapters a day and it has already taught us a lot. Really opens your eyes to how in depth a relationship goes and that there is a lot to do to maintain a good one.

We want to see a marriage counselor and will be something that will come up with the bishop at our next meeting. Is it a weekly therapy a one time deal?

Edited November 15, 2010 by John11111

[Guest mirancs8]

Well after reading that it helped clarify a bit more for me. A traumatic event doesn't always constitute a life shattering explosive event. Sometime it can be clearly minor from the outside, but for that particular individual it can cause emotional and even behavioral issues throughout their life. Especially if those events encompassed family members. When it comes to family we are far more vulnerable and tolerant. Being wronged by a family member such as a sister, brother etc the effect of it is usually greater then that of someone we do not share a strong emotional connection to. Furthermore you are connected genetically so the depth of the hurt can run deeper (how can my sister/brother treat me this way/do this to me? Why does my sister/brother hate me so much to hurt me?).

Factor in continual verbal attacks from loved ones puts her in a more vulnerable position to having emotional hurt that carries on for year. I might be safe to assume that she never address these issues and if she did she never followed through with any type of therapy. She probably internalized the emotions for all those years and now she's not sure what to do with it. Her outlet for all the pinned up emotions is pushed out into a destructive behavior. It takes a long time and diligent effort on her part to resolve these issues.

What is even more difficult is being you just trying to understand. You are trying to understand it from her perspective aren't you? You want to understand yet the frustration has you pulling out your hair. Maybe you wonder how is it that another person who has been through the same or even worse seems unscathed by any of it.

The therapy for some takes months for most takes years. Regarding the costs I would suggest you speak to the Bishop about it when you meet with him and express your concerns. The church may be able to help you with part and at times all of the cost if you are financial unable. Do not let finance come in the way of getting through this. There are ways to make it work.

[Tarnished]

When we went through the repentance process our Bishop suggested we attend marriage counseling through the LDS Social Services. We went to the counselor on a regular basis, I think it was either weekly or bi-weekly (I can't remember). Once she felt we were helped as much as she could help us she told us we could either continue to come or stop coming. We decided to stop coming. The counseling was mostly focused on our communication skills with each other. At the time we commuted together and spent our commute time talking about everything, so we had actually had the conversations the counselor was building us up to long before she ever got around to them. For your marriage it will really depend on where you both are regarding the situation and how the counselor feels you are doing as a couple.

[twort]

Sorry to be the discenting voice, but it sounds like she is on a destrucive path. I can se that you probably won't, but please consider moving on. You can even have your kids, most likely... the courts will probably take your side...

Please... read my other posts and at least think about my suggestion...

[bytor2112]

I would have long since dumped her and long since disowned my brother After I kicked the crud out of him and maybe her too. Move on and don't let people treat you like a door matt.

[Blackmarch]

Also I know it says in dc that the lord will chose whom he forgives but we must forgive all men. Divorce isnt something I really want but if for some reason it ends up happening would I still be able to forgive her even if we are divorced? Isnt getting a divorce saying I am not willing to forgive her?

If lives are being endangered by one spouse or the other then divorce is necessary, whether one forgives or not.

However if it's more just of being sinned against, I think you may want to read section 98 (mainly the last half)... basically if you have suffered through her sins and that they are on the magnitude to be excumminicated then you are justified. If you are willing to wait longer and work things out then more blessings be upon you.

Edited January 27, 2011 by Blackmarch

[NeuroTypical]

kids involved bytor. No crud kicking - especially daddy kicking crud out of mommy.

[bert10]

Your wife will teach you many things that will turn out for your good if you trust GOD. Adultery is pretty near to murder.

The Ancients whenever a wife became unfaithful...Though they would forgive the wayward wife they still would cease to have any sexual intimacy with them. For Example when Reuban slept with Bilah Jacob had her put away....saying GOD is not a GOD of confusion.

It is serious...because the Woman is the keeper of the Spiritual line as well as the physical line of the family.And also Adultery in the flesh is preceded by adultery in the heart.

Once Sin is conceived in the heart...unless drastic repentance is initiated it will find fulfillment.

Your wife had a hardened and a cheating heart and what you do is up to you. Her heart is hardened and there is nothing you can do until it changes. Separation is an option. I have written on Spiritual divorces and it is hard to get from GOD. However, when repentance is not forthcoming...GOD can put asunder a marriage.

As for your brother...he is an enemy. For he behaved as an Enemy. Do not be deceived in this..the Lord defined what is a brother, sister, mother, father to each one of us.

I am not advocating for you any course of action....it is important that you understand what is going on and why men and woman do what they do. Understanding will lead to forgiveness and mercy. And we are to also listen to GOD. "Forgiveness" and "Unconditional Love" are not options. We are to give it out. A modification to the marital covenant may be in order such as Separation for example.

However, as for going to the temple and being sealed with your wife...wait until GOD says to go. Being sealed to your children is one thing. But being sealed to your wife is another.

If you begin to Live "Unconditional Love" Which is a giving Love...With this love one does not yell at his wife...is patient etc. AND IT WILL BEGIN TO FREE YOU. This is the truth that will set you free. And you will be able to see more clearly and hear GOD more clearly.

"Unconditional Love" will first work on the person using it before working on the Spouse.

bert10

I have been married to my wife for 9 years. We have 2 daughters 8 and 6 years old.

We were married right outta highschool at 18 years old, I went into nursing and got my liscence as an lpn. We only had legal marriage and have not yet been to the temple.

So about 4 years ago I found out my wife had been unfaithful with my brother. I had noticed a change in her and was always trying to get her to talk to me, one night I asked her what had happened. I thought maybe someone had done something to her.

She admitted she had been sleeping with my brother about a year before and it had lasted over 6 months 1-3 times a week while I was at work. She told me she had stopped it herself and felt really bad about it and it was a huge mistake. I was really upset and angry I didnt now what to do. We went to the bishop and talked to him about it they had a disciplinary counsil, she was placed on probation and had bi-weekly meetings with the bishop she did well at 1st but she found out the bishop was changing and she quit going.

In this time I found out by accident when I was using her computer a guy pmed me that we had known. I was talking to him and I guess he thought I was her... Turns out she had given him a picture of her wearing next to nothing. I confonted her about it and she admitted to it and that she hadnt talked to him in over a year and that she had felt pressured into it.

Anyways we started goin to the bishop again about a year ago after not having seen anyone for almost 2 years?. I was happy that my wife had finally got on track again I thought things were going well.

Just recently about 3-4 weeks ago I started to get the feeling something was wrong again. I had installed a net nanny type program on the computer because of the previous incident and to protect my daughters. I saw some very disturbing chats she was having with my brother.... It appeared that she was being unfaithful again. In the chats she told him, she didnt really had feelings for me and was scared all the time, she said she felt like I didnt love or or like her anymore...

I thought that was insane I buy her flowers 1-2 times a month. I take her out on mini shopping sprees so she has nice things. I work hard so she doesnt have to work. I plan dinners and take her out to breakfast and try to do nice things for her. I try and take her on a date at least 2x a month. From what I hear about others couples in my eyes I do a lot for her.

SO I confronted her a night later after work about the chats I started yelling at her to call her mom to come pick her up and get out of the house. I was so angry. Her mom knew of the pevious unfaithfulness because she was relief society president at the time so the bishop was obligated to tell her i guess.

She came over and luckily was able to talk to us a bit and calmed things down. My wife ended up staying and we stayed up all night talking. I took off work the next day to spend time at home. I dont know what to do anymore when I was talking to my wife she said she doesnt know why she did it.

I asked her why she felt like she did after all I do for her she thinks its because she never got to grow up. I dunno If I can do this all again. We have to talk to the bishop again and im certain this time she will be excommunicated. I love my wife so much and my children would be devastated if I got a divorce she is a great mother to them. I dont know what to do anymore im confused and hurt. I dont want to waste another 3 years of my life and the same thing happen again yet I dont want to throw these last 9 years away.

Im not perfect and I have my faults I yell at her for having a messy house or not having clean clothes to wear. Or not having prepared meals I help her around the house and do work I paint, fix broken pipes , drains, all the maintence stuff that seems to always pop up. I even clean the house spotless from time to time so all she as to do is keep it picked up. She doesnt have to work so I figure if I put in 40 hours or more at work she can at least put in 15-20 hours at home this never happens she will spend maybe 1-3 hours once a week and call it trying hard...

I asked her why she was scared of me and she said it was because she never knows if I am gonna leave her for what happened the 1st time... I would have left when I found out if that was the case... I thought that all the things I do for her showed that I still cared. She tells me flowers are nice but she would rather have more time talking. Everytme I try to talk to her or ask her how she is doing she wont open up. I see somethings not right but she denies it.

If one of her reasons was being scared id leave her, then why will it be any better this time around? Wont that feeling be greater for her now after a 2nd time? She says she still loves me and chose to stay.

I dont know what to believe anymore she has lied before and the things she said when she didnt know anyone else would see keep digging at me. She tells me she didnt mean those things and she was just mad at me but I have no trust left right now.

PLEASE HELP!!!

I guess we plan on seeing the bishop this week and im scared for my wife I know whats coming for her and have read up on it on the lds site. I know she can repent again and be re baptized. I have waited 4 years already to get married in the temple and be sealed to my daughters. Having to wait another 2-3 years doesnt sit well with me I dont want to lose my family if something were to happen to me or my daughters. I know they soon will be too old to be sealed and we will have to wait until they are adults themselves?

ANyways sorry its so long and jumbled but my mind is going a million thoughts a minute and I have no one to talk to as I dont want to embarass my wife and let friends or family know. I talked once with my bestfriend about it I had it bottled up for long. I never visit or see my bet friend anymore because after I told him I always feel bad or uncomfortable with him now.

[John11111]

Time for a status update it seems

Disciplinary counsel resulted in disfellowship which ws a big relief to us both. We have started marriage counseling and are continuing to work things out.

Is a lot to say since I posted last so this will be a long post. 1st off reading those books has been a huge help in understanding eachother and knowing what our needs are.

Seeing a marriage counselor has also been a great help we will have our 4th session in a couple weeks. The counselor has further helped us both to understand and admit to whats happened.

We took personality tests and turns out my wife is a slight extrovert and I am a moderate introvert. We plugged our test results up in a marriage test and saw we had 86% compatibility which I thought was cool.

We have a MD apointment to get blood work done for my wife to see if she has any imbalances that could be a contributing factor per our m.c.

We also discussed the likely cause of all this and why things turned out how they did. Our m.c. explained that because my wife has been a stay at home mom starting at 18 she missed out on a essential growing process akin to a baby learning how to walk and talk. The age between 18-22/24 is a major time of growth and learning who you are. My wife at 26 has yet to really get to grow up yet or find out who she is which leads to confusion depression and destructive behaviors.

Second part of it was I was not consistently providing one of the basic needs in a relationship which was conversation. Though I had the other 4 down pretty good not supplying even one can and did lead to problems. Seeing as how my wife is an extrovert conversation and a consistent adult social life is pretty important.

My wifes lack of a real social life which basically consisted of hanging out with my daughters which is unhealthy chained with lack of real adult conversation set the platform for what happened. My wife latched onto her conversations albeit inappropriate which continued on into the affair.

Now being aware of all this we were able to come up with a plan and steps to follow mend and heal and improve our relationship. The plan we have laid out is multi tiered and will take time.

Our 1st step is to help my wife grow and become more independent. Getting her drivers liscence going to local college and taking the carreer evaluation test and starting on some classes. Reconnecting with her friends and getting back into a healthy social setting. She has strong support from her Mom and her old young womens president. Along with our Marriage counseling she also talks to the bishop every 2 weeks so she has a consistent almost weekly sit down with somebody to evaluate her/our progress.

We are having family time every day now from time kids get home from school until they go to bed and setting aside 2 sometimes more hours after that with eachother talking and reading together. We have been having family home evening every week and praying together daily.

We are expecting that by helping my wife grow and fixing my part of things, taking care of all the underlying problems the symptoms should go away as well at least I can only hope.

It hasnt been easy things still are not perfect I still get angry but our m.c. told me that was normal and will happen for years to come as long as it happens less frequently it is my way of grieving. I shouldnt hold it in as I have been that she says is unhealthy.

Could I have taken the easy way out? Sure but I didnt feel it was the right thing to do personally I think it would have been selfish. I couldnt imagine doing that to my children. Knowing that my wife was willing to work through things and was genuinely sorry and seeking repentance. I know that if we continue our work and keep to our plan that we will end up much better then we were before.

Ultimately it is up to us if one or both of us gives up then I will consider seperation and divorce but until then I am more then happy to put in the work required.

Bert the Lord also teaches to love your enemies.

[bert10]

First I am glad you are trying to work things out. You are doing what you can and this matters a lot.

God still loved Israel when He let them go into slavery. "Unconditional Love" is a giving Love..and a forgiving Love. Though Jacob put away Billah he stilled loved her and supported her. I am not advocating this course of action...But one ought to listen to GOD. The Lord said that adultery can be forgiven but not often.

Whenever I hear a person separating, divorcing i feel as though Satan won another victory. I would prefer that no one divorce and every one learn to live a life a peace with other and with GOD.

The "Love dare" program from what I have seen, contains a lot of what one do if he began to Live "Unconditional Love"

This is what I know Conditional Love will always fail at some point..it is just a matter of time.

Before reading the following again I wish you well in your endeavors to fix things instead like so many who often find the easy way was really the hardest way of all.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following is information and I am trying to show why divorces happen and to have knowledge of it...so that we can fight it on the Spiritual level.

The solution is not for a person to grow more "Egotistical" Like "I gotta go and find myself" which has got be the most inane excuse ever to justify or excuse an action which is most often a form of wickedness. Another one which I often hear "we have grown apart" or that "we have nothing in common"....Satan started this stuff.

These things mentioned above deals with "Conditional Love" which God calls darkness since it comes with fears. "Unconditional Love" is a giving Love that we give to our Spouse regardless of what they do. If two people learn to live this type of Love they will enjoy just being together even if at the time they are not doing any activities in common. "Unconditonal Love" fills voids so there is no real need for time fillers. It is sorta of like an old couple on Rocking chairs on the porch. We can let our hearts talk to each other when we have run out of things to say.

The more adjusted a man is to this world...the more he is mal-adjusted to the things of heaven he is. Ancient prophets were called mad and fools why is that?

In order to find our life we must first Lose it. The Solution is not to grow more into the worldly life. He who wishes to save his/her worldly life will lose it.

The Solution is looking to the opposite what the world teach. IF a person want to grow into the Life of GOD then that person must lose himself/herself in the service of others.

The best cure is volunteering and working with the poor the sick and helpless which is losing oneself in the service of others. What that person will find within over time will be worth more than friends and time fillers that does not get one closer to GOD. God will then teach this individual in how to grow properly that will please GOD and not please the world.

These principles in the above paragraph were taught to us by Jesus. After all As Paul said.....Charity [Pure love of Christ] will never fail or vanish away.

bert10

Time for a status update it seems

Disciplinary counsel resulted in disfellowship which ws a big relief to us both. We have started marriage counseling and are continuing to work things out.

Is a lot to say since I posted last so this will be a long post. 1st off reading those books has been a huge help in understanding eachother and knowing what our needs are.

Seeing a marriage counselor has also been a great help we will have our 4th session in a couple weeks. The counselor has further helped us both to understand and admit to whats happened.

We took personality tests and turns out my wife is a slight extrovert and I am a moderate introvert. We plugged our test results up in a marriage test and saw we had 86% compatibility which I thought was cool.

We have a MD apointment to get blood work done for my wife to see if she has any imbalances that could be a contributing factor per our m.c.

We also discussed the likely cause of all this and why things turned out how they did. Our m.c. explained that because my wife has been a stay at home mom starting at 18 she missed out on a essential growing process akin to a baby learning how to walk and talk. The age between 18-22/24 is a major time of growth and learning who you are. My wife at 26 has yet to really get to grow up yet or find out who she is which leads to confusion depression and destructive behaviors.

Second part of it was I was not consistently providing one of the basic needs in a relationship which was conversation. Though I had the other 4 down pretty good not supplying even one can and did lead to problems. Seeing as how my wife is an extrovert conversation and a consistent adult social life is pretty important.

My wifes lack of a real social life which basically consisted of hanging out with my daughters which is unhealthy chained with lack of real adult conversation set the platform for what happened. My wife latched onto her conversations albeit inappropriate which continued on into the affair.

Now being aware of all this we were able to come up with a plan and steps to follow mend and heal and improve our relationship. The plan we have laid out is multi tiered and will take time.

Our 1st step is to help my wife grow and become more independent. Getting her drivers liscence going to local college and taking the carreer evaluation test and starting on some classes. Reconnecting with her friends and getting back into a healthy social setting. She has strong support from her Mom and her old young womens president. Along with our Marriage counseling she also talks to the bishop every 2 weeks so she has a consistent almost weekly sit down with somebody to evaluate her/our progress.

We are having family time every day now from time kids get home from school until they go to bed and setting aside 2 sometimes more hours after that with eachother talking and reading together. We have been having family home evening every week and praying together daily.

We are expecting that by helping my wife grow and fixing my part of things, taking care of all the underlying problems the symptoms should go away as well at least I can only hope.

It hasnt been easy things still are not perfect I still get angry but our m.c. told me that was normal and will happen for years to come as long as it happens less frequently it is my way of grieving. I shouldnt hold it in as I have been that she says is unhealthy.

Could I have taken the easy way out? Sure but I didnt feel it was the right thing to do personally I think it would have been selfish. I couldnt imagine doing that to my children. Knowing that my wife was willing to work through things and was genuinely sorry and seeking repentance. I know that if we continue our work and keep to our plan that we will end up much better then we were before.

Ultimately it is up to us if one or both of us gives up then I will consider seperation and divorce but until then I am more then happy to put in the work required.

Bert the Lord also teaches to love your enemies.

[John11111]

Love dare is one of the books we have we are going one at a time and were saving that one for last. It mentions at the start that its not to be taken lightly and we need to be commited 100% to it. If it is to work so by the time we finish the other books and have had some time to really think things through then we will be ready to commit to it.