What was the real date of Jesus' birth?

[Saguaro]

What was the real date of Jesus' birth? | Deseret News

Very interesting article. This month my home teacher's lesson was on the fact that Joseph Smith revealed April 6 as the birth date of Jesus. Looks like that may not be entirely accurate.

[Backroads]

I remember hearing that and then reading the scripture that supposedly backed it up, and not seeing it as really clear... nice article.

[bert10]

Yes/No. The date can vary on our Calender because in part we use a Lunar cycle calender. For example Christmas can be on a Saturday one year and on a Sunday the next.

If we were to use Enoch's Solar Calender we would be correct on the day of the week every year. The correct date is 6th April 1 BC.

Somewhere along the way in the last two thousand years..we lost a year.

Briefly, we are going to go back to this Calendar whom the Angel gave to Enoch but the time is not now. But when Zion comes we will be walking by this Calender. At this time the Lord is making us walk under a lower light...which is the Moon. Men will one day walk under the greater light which is the Sun.

The Equinoxes and the Solstices regulate the calender of Enoch. Jesus was born on the day of Salvation of the Lord. This day is also the same day Israel was delivered from Egypt. It is also the same day Jesus was born and also the same day Jesus died. All the great works of Salvation were performed on that day...including the things concerning the launching of the LDS Church and BOM. The Passover is always the fourteenth day of the Spring Equinox.

In the calender of Enoch the first day is the Equinox. This is the beginning of the calender and the first day of that month starts on the fourth day. Which we call Wednesday. The first sabbath is always on the third day following the Spring Equinox. Jesus was crucified on the Passover and resurrected on the Sabbath. WHich is a HOLY DAY and a DAY that GOD completed HIS Work.

There is more but that is sufficient as GOD as not decreed that we go back to the Calender of Enoch. The Lunar Hebrew calender was pretty useful as the Jews Passover had not begun when they crucified Jesus. This difference of Calender allowed the Jews to crucify Jesus On the true day according to GOD's Timetable. While according to the Hebrew's calender their Passover was not on that day.

Other things to note...on the Calender of Enoch we will not be using the names of Demons to mark the days and Months as we do today. The Months can be called by the names of the Sons of Adam or Jacob. And days are reckoned by numbers.

Ex. Juno (June), Mars (March) Thor (Thursday) are names of false gods.

Not only are we walking by a lower light, We are using the names of demons to mark the days and month of the Calender we use and some do pronounce their names more often then that of our own GOD.

Truly mankind is deceived and is walking by the lower light.

bert10

What was the real date of Jesus' birth? | Deseret News

Very interesting article. This month my home teacher's lesson was on the fact that Joseph Smith revealed April 6 as the birth date of Jesus. Looks like that may not be entirely accurate.

Edited December 29, 2010 by bert10

[MarginOfError]

Yes/No. The date can vary on our Calender because in part we use a Lunar cycle calender. For example Christmas can be on a Saturday one year and on a Sunday the next.

If we were to use Enoch's Solar Calender we would be correct on the day of the week every year. The correct date is 6th April 1 BC.

Somewhere along the way in the last two thousand years..we lost a year.

Briefly, we are going to go back to this Calendar whom the Angel gave to Enoch but the time is not now. But when Zion comes we will be walking by this Calender. At this time the Lord is making us walk under a lower light...which is the Moon. Men will one day walk under the greater light which is the Sun.

The Equinoxes and the Solstices regulate the calender of Enoch. Jesus was born on the day of Salvation of the Lord. This day is also the same day Israel was delivered from Egypt. It is also the same day Jesus was born and also the same day Jesus died. All the great works of Salvation were performed on that day...including the things concerning the launching of the LDS Church and BOM. The Passover is always the fourteenth day of the Spring Equinox.

In the calender of Enoch the first day is the Equinox. This is the beginning of the calender and the first day of that month starts on the fourth day. Which we call Wednesday. The first sabbath is always on the third day following the Spring Equinox. Jesus was crucified on the Passover and resurrected on the Sabbath. WHich is a HOLY DAY and a DAY that GOD completed HIS Work.

There is more but that is sufficient as GOD as not decreed that we go back to the Calender of Enoch. The Lunar Hebrew calender was pretty useful as the Jews Passover had not begun when they crucified Jesus. This difference of Calender allowed the Jews to crucify Jesus On the true day according to GOD's Timetable. While according to the Hebrew's calender their Passover was not on that day.

Other things to note...on the Calender of Enoch we will not be using the names of Demons to mark the days and Months as we do today. The Months can be called by the names of the Sons of Adam or Jacob. And days are reckoned by numbers.

Ex. Juno (June), Mars (March) Thor (Thursday) are names of false gods.

Not only are we walking by a lower light, We are using the names of demons to mark the days and month of the Calender we use and some do pronounce their names more often then that of our own GOD.

Truly mankind is deceived and is walking by the lower light.

bert10

References?

[Wingnut]

This month my home teacher's lesson was on the fact that Joseph Smith revealed April 6 as the birth date of Jesus. Looks like that may not be entirely accurate.

The word "fact" is used very loosely here. I think far too many people take the statement too literally. He said that the Savior was born 1,830 years ago (then), and it was said on April 6. What's the difference between that and me saying, today, that I was born 30 years ago? It doesn't mean today is my birthday.

Note: I didn't read the article referenced in the OP, so it may be saying exactly what I am. Sorry if I'm just being repetitive.

[Saguaro]

References?

I agree with MOE. You (bert10) emphatically state "The correct date is 6th April 1 BC." Did you not read the article? If you read it and disagree with its conclusions please provide a basis for your own conclusions.

[supersc]

The article and the referenced article in BYU Studies, if I am correct, point out that John Whitmer's introduction appears to have been incorporated into verse 1, and some have interpreted that to mean that 6 April 1830 is exactly 1830 years since Christ's birth.

But the recently printed volume (Volume II, I believe) of Joseph Smith papers shows that it was originally an introduction written by the Church Historian at the time, John Whitmer.

All in all, not important to me when Christ was born..so much more important that he lived and died and lived again.

[Guest]

I fail to see the importance of the choice of calendars or the importance of getting the exact date of Christ's birth correct.

December 25 is when EVERYBODY around the world - Christian or not - celebrate together in honor of peace, joy, and love. That to me is what is important about December 25, whether it be the correct date of Christ's birth or not. The unifying power of the season is felt around the globe and we attribute it to the light of Christ.

Who cares if the date was originally a pagan holiday? Who cares if the days of the week is named after gods? It's like people named Forrest being thought of as slow people because some guy named a movie character Forrest Gump.

Whatever.

[bert10]

Much of the stuff is self explanatory. You need to learn about the Gregorian calender, the Julius calender and the Hebrew calender. You do not need to know everything just a bit how they work and how they figure out their dates.

Lunar calenders are probably on your wall right now. On that calender we keep track of the moon and its phases. However, feast days, and holy days do not fall on the same day of the week year after year.

A Solar calender works on the Sun. And a way to reset the Calender is by solstices and Equinoxes.

If we determine for example that the passover is 14 days after the spring Equinox then we can cannot fail to observe the passover at the right time according to the heavenly Sun.

It is not hard to figure that the moon is the lesser light that it reflects the light of the sun. That the greater between the moon and Sun is the sun. And that if we know the number of days an event is from the solstice or Equinox we can pretty well ensure that we would observe it at the correct time every year. Simply by using the solstices or equinoxes as a reference point and then counting the days to the event.

bert10

References?

Edited December 29, 2010 by bert10

[captmoroniRM]

Does it really matter what day Christ came into the world? Knowing the date does nothing to enhance our testimony that Christ is the Son of God and our Savior. I'd rather learn for a surety that He is my Savior and that through him I can be forgiven of my sins. April 6? Dec 5? April 10? Gee whiz information if you ask me.

[MarginOfError]

Much of the stuff is self explanatory. You need to learn about the Gregorian calender, the Julius calender and the Hebrew calender. You do not need to know everything just a bit how they work and how they figure out their dates.

Lunar calenders are probably on your wall right now. On that calender we keep track of the moon and its phases. However, feast days, and holy days do not fall on the same day of the week year after year.

A Solar calender works on the Sun. And a way to reset the Calender is by solstices and Equinoxes.

If we determine for example that the passover is 14 days after the spring Equinox then we can cannot fail to observe the passover at the right time according to the heavenly Sun.

It is not hard to figure that the moon is the lesser light that it reflects the light of the sun. That the greater between the moon and Sun is the sun. And that if we know the number of days an event is from the solstice or Equinox we can pretty well ensure that we would observe it at the correct time every year. Simply by using the solstices or equinoxes as a reference point and then counting the days to the event.

bert10

1) You still didn't give any references.

2) Your subsequent discussion was limited to an explanation of types of calendars

3) The more bizarre of your claims were regarding Enoch's calendar and the exact date of Christ's birth, etc...for which you provided no references at all.

Are you avoiding something?

[Dravin]

Are you avoiding something?

Obviously this is the point where you supposed to gain a testimony of his post silly.

[MarginOfError]

Obviously this is the point where you supposed to gain a testimony of his post silly.

I suddenly want to exclaim "I believe" like the woman in the old The First Vision video did. I wonder if I could get a similar outfit.

[Saguaro]

I agree with others that the actual date doesn't matter, what's important is that we celebrate Christ and gain a testimony of his divine mission. What bothers me though is when people claim to know the exact date of his birth or perpetuate a doctrine based on an assumption based on speculation derived from the misinterpretation of a scripture, etc., etc. Can't we just agree that since none of us was there we don't know the exact date?

[Backroads]

I agree with others that the actual date doesn't matter, what's important is that we celebrate Christ and gain a testimony of his divine mission. What bothers me though is when people claim to know the exact date of his birth or perpetuate a doctrine based on an assumption based on speculation derived from the misinterpretation of a scripture, etc., etc. Can't we just agree that since none of us was there we don't know the exact date?

What really gets me is people who always say "You know he wasn't born exactly on December 25th?" as if it's going to affect someone's testimony.

I think it's fun to speculate on the exact date, but there is a line that can be crossed in that.

[Suzie]

I think it's fun to speculate on the exact date, but there is a line that can be crossed in that.

Just curious, how do you take when for instance President Hinckley said it was by revelation that we know he was born on April 6th?

[Dravin]

What really gets me is people who always say "You know he wasn't born exactly on December 25th?" as if it's going to affect someone's testimony.

It's fun to be able to respond with additional information. So you can assume your best PBS announcer voice and history geek all over them talking about the winter solstice, coopting of pagan holidays and a little bit about just who got their holiday stolen. For example, Yule was a pagan diety, so Yuletide greetings are made in the name of a pagan diety. Even more fun is that in few languages to wish people a merry Christmas you wish them a God Jul (Norwegian and Swedish), Glædelig Jul (Danish) or Hyvää Joulua (Finnish).

Edited December 29, 2010 by Dravin

[Saguaro]

Just curious, how do you take when for instance President Hinckley said it was by revelation that we know he was born on April 6th?

First of all, did he actually say that? I would have to see a reference. If he did say that, did he say "I received a revelation", or was he basing his statement on a previous prophet? And did that previous prophet specifically state he received a revelation? Or were they all just referring to D&C 20:1 which simply says Christ was born 1,830 years ago and wasn't actually written by a prophet but by John Whitmer? My point is that just because a prophet said it doesn't make it so, especially if we are talking about a specific historical date. I would think the Lord would have more important things to reveal to a prophet than an exact date from more than 2,000 years ago.

[Backroads]

Just curious, how do you take when for instance President Hinckley said it was by revelation that we know he was born on April 6th?

I agree; when was that said? If he's referring to Joseph Smith's piece, that has been discussed in the subject article here.

[MarginOfError]

“This is the annual conference of the Church. April 6, 1973, is a particularly significant date because it commemorates not only the anniversary of the organization of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in this dispensation, but also the anniversary of the birth of the Savior, our Lord and Master, Jesus Christ.

” ( Harold B Lee, CR, Apr. 1973, p. 4.)

Haven't found one form President Hinckley yet, but how's Harold B. Lee?

[Suzie]

Adding to the one of Margin:

President Hinckley, 1997:

“It is the season of the winter solstice,” said President Gordon B. Hinckley at the First Presidency Christmas Devotional held Sunday, 7 December 1997, in the Tabernacle on Temple Square. “In a few days comes the promise that spring will come again and summer will return, as it has through all the millennia that men have been upon the earth. It is no wonder that in ancient times Christmas, commemorating the birth of the Christ child, was celebrated at this solstice season. Men had no knowledge of the time of His birth, and so they came to bond the celebration of Christmas with the celebration of the return of the sun. While we now know through revelation the time of the Savior’s birth [April 6], we observe the 25th of December with the rest of the Christian world.”

News of the Church

[Suzie]

More:

"My brothers and sisters, today we not only celebrate the Sesquicentennial of the organization of the Church, but also the greatest event in human history since the birth of Christ on this day 1,980 years ago. Today is Easter Sunday." (Pres. Kimball)

Doctrine and Covenants and Church History Seminary Manual:

"Doctrine and Covenants 20:1—Why the Sixth of April? The Lord gave 6 April 1830 as the day to formerly organize His Church. President Harold B. Lee spoke of the significance of this date: “April 6, 1973 is a particularly significant date because it commemorates not only the anniversary of the organization of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints in this dispensation, but also the anniversary of the birth of the Savior, our Lord and Master, Jesus Christ” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1973, 4; or Ensign, July 1973, 2).(Doctrine and Covenants and Church History: Seminary Student Study Guide, Page 32)

Elder Tanner and others as well shared similar statements.

[Backroads]

ALl right, but I'm still not seeing where they actual revelation is, just that they are referencing one.

[MarginOfError]

ALl right, but I'm still not seeing where they actual revelation is, just that they are referencing one.

The common reference seems to be D&C 20:1.

So the question is, as Suzie framed it, how do you react to Presidents Lee and Hinckley using D&C 20:1 as the revelation forming the basis of the belief that the Savior was born on April 6th?

[Backroads]

The common reference seems to be D&C 20:1.

So the question is, as Suzie framed it, how do you react to Presidents Lee and Hinckley using D&C 20:1 as the revelation forming the basis of the belief that the Savior was born on April 6th?

I don't know if I really react. It's as good a belief and date as any. To me, however, the scripture is rather unclear that is was Christ's exact birthdate.

I want to know if they had personal revelation themselves that the scripture meant precisely that.