Lds=answers

[Dr T]

Hello Lindy,

You said,

I also chose the LDS church because it was/is something I believe in

I had questions I had in life that could not be answered anywhere other than here in the LDS faith

Can you talk a little about the questions that could only be answered in the LDS faith?

Thank you,

Dr. T

[Palerider]

I think it would be easier to ask the questions.....It seems you might have a few....just my opinion...................

[Dr T]

Hi Palerider,

I'm asking in response to her reply in another thread Paleone. I do have a ton of questions about various things. The more I read about your faith, the more questions I have. Lindy made the statement that the questions she had can only be answered by the LDS church. That makes me curious as to what questions she had.

THanks,

Dr. T

[Palerider]

Hi Palerider,

I'm asking in response to her reply in another thread Paleone. I do have a ton of questions about various things. The more I read about your faith, the more questions I have. Lindy made the statement that the questions she had can only be answered by the LDS church. That makes me curious as to what questions she had.

THanks,

Dr. T

Not being a smart aleck here......in these parts where I come from....its easier to just ask questions and find out what you wanna know Dr one....or take your questions too the Lord and pray......James 1:5......

[Heather]

I think what he is asking is what questions Lindy had and what answers she found in the LDS church. For example, she may have been wondering, "Where did we come from?" And the LDS answer made the most sense to her.

I don't think he is saying he has any specific questions, but just wondered what questions others might have, and what answers they have found.

[Dr T]

Exactly Heather. Thanks. :)

Dr. T

[Palerider]

I gotcha now.......duh.....LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Lindy]

Hello Lindy,

You said,

I also chose the LDS church because it was/is something I believe in

I had questions I had in life that could not be answered anywhere other than here in the LDS faith

Can you talk a little about the questions that could only be answered in the LDS faith?

Thank you,

Dr. T

I will do the best I can Dr. T....

All my life I wondered about God-Jesus-Holy Ghost being ONE enity.... it just didn't make sense to me, but I just didn't worry a whole lot about it. Than as a teen I started asking my clergy how God could walk without legs, or speak without a mouth, or have Christ sit on the right hand side of Him if he didn't have a right hand. I was looked upon like a foolish youth, my questions were never answered to satisfy my wonderings. Best answers given to me were something along the lines of ..."I really don't know... I guess that's not our place to know right now.....it's really not important .... it's just a figure of speech" Well, it was important to ME! And when the missionaries told me about God having a body..... A BODY!... seperate from Christ or the Holy Ghost..... it just all made sense to me at that moment... it was like a light went on in my head, my heart and my soul.

The other thing I questioned was why bad people would go to the same heaven as the good people just because they "found Christ" and believed in Him. In several churchs I attended I was told that if you just have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in HIm..... you would not parish but have everlasting life. Hey, that was great...that's what I wanted for my life... but why was I being told to be good, to keep the commandments, and be an good example if I could be bad, do what I want and live how I want if I was going to heaven anyway? Same heaven for everyone was what I was told. Life would be glorious I was told.... than I thought about sharing heaven with people like Charles Manson who "are saved" because of thier faith in Christ. I DIDN"T want to share my eternal life with someone like that. It scared me. When I asked around about how justice was to be served on those who believed in Christ, yet didn't live a good life.... and why should I want to live my life in fear of having to share eternal life with terrible people? .....Again no answers to appease my troubled mind.

I wasn't that bad of a youth. I wasn't an angel.... but it didn't matter because I was saved by the grace of Jesus Christ... and I was going to heaven anyway. RIGHT? RIGHT? that was what I was told all my life I just needed to live a good life just because it was the right thing to do. I still didn't understand why we needed to be judged for our works in life if it didn't matter if we but believed. Why have a judgement day? It should just be called Pass - No Pass Day. You believed or you didn't.

Again, the missionaries told me about the 3 kingdoms (levels) of heaven...and BAM it all made sense AGAIN! We will be sent to a level comparable to the life we lived on earth..... NOT all thrown in together in one heaven.....Judgement Day all of a sudden made sense to me, and it was all so clear when for so many years I lived in fog trying to find a way out.

Those were two of the most important questions I had that were answered by the LDS faith.

Pre-mortal existance, the visit of Christ to the "other sheep", a prophet again on earth to help guide the Lords people..... those were other things I had found comfort in that answered questions I had.

That's why the story of Joseph Smith was'nt so far fetched to me.... I had those questions in my mind I couldn't get answered either.... no matter who you asked, or how hard you tried...you couldn't find the answers.

I am so thankful that I found this church, this faith, the faith I had been searching for, for so long.... it was like coming home...... my soul found peace and I could rest from my weary travels to find the answers I needed in life.

If I can be of any more help Dr.T just let me know.

Smiles,

Lindy

[begood2]

Lindy,

I also like the LDS view of the actions of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden, how it was necessary for mans progression, and how it would not condemn all babies to be born with original sin. It just didn't make sense to think that an innocent baby could be born with sin to be cleansed from them ...that they didn't commit and before they reached an age of accountability.

[Lindy]

Lindy,

I also like the LDS view of the actions of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden, how it was necessary for mans progression, and how it would not condemn all babies to be born with original sin. It just didn't make sense to think that an innocent baby could be born with sin to be cleansed from them ...that they didn't commit and before they reached an age of accountability.

Good point to bring up begood, I guess I always knew that babies were innocent at birth..... and never thought that others believed they were actually born with sin. See I was a walking talking mormon before I even joined the church .... just didn't know it :)

Ditto with the fall of Adam and Eve... it just made sense to me.

A walking talking mormon before conversion I tell you

[Maureen]

Ditto with the fall of Adam and Eve... it just made sense to me...

Original sin can be explained by:

So then, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all people because all sinned-- for before the law was given, sin was in the world, but there is no accounting for sin when there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam until Moses even over those who did not sin in the same way that Adam (who is a type of the coming one) transgressed. But the gracious gift is not like the transgression. For if the many died through the transgression of the one man, how much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one man Jesus Christ multiply to the many! And the gift is not like the one who sinned. For judgment, resulting from the one transgression, led to condemnation, but the gracious gift from the many failures led to justification. For if, by the transgression of the one man, death reigned through the one, how much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, Jesus Christ! (Romans 5:12-17)

M.

[prisonchaplain]

<div class='quotemain'>

Lindy,

I also like the LDS view of the actions of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden, how it was necessary for mans progression, and how it would not condemn all babies to be born with original sin. It just didn't make sense to think that an innocent baby could be born with sin to be cleansed from them ...that they didn't commit and before they reached an age of accountability.

Good point to bring up begood, I guess I always knew that babies were innocent at birth..... and never thought that others believed they were actually born with sin. See I was a walking talking mormon before I even joined the church .... just didn't know it :)

Ditto with the fall of Adam and Eve... it just made sense to me.

A walking talking mormon before conversion I tell you

My two-cents on "original sin" and Adam and Eve in the garden:

1. Many churches believe in "the age of accountability." The idea is that prior to the age at which a person truly understands good and evil, should something happen to them, they would go to be with the Father. Churches that teach this are usually the same ones that practice "believers' baptism"--i.e. water baptism that does not take place until the believer has made his/her confession of faith. While the scriptural backing for this view is circumstantial, I suppose the strongest tradition to look to would be Jewish Bar Mitzvah. I child becomes an adult at 13--and only then is fully responsible for actions.

2. As for Adam and Eve in the Garden, I'm convinced that they did not have to sin. Had they chosen not to take the forbidden fruit, life would have continued in perfection for them. Perhaps each new generation would have been tested. However, just as I do not ascribe to rigid predestination (God determines who burns and who gets glory), I would find it hard to embrace that God "rigged" the Garden with guaranteed failure and sin on the part of Adam and Eve. We are living out God's backup plan of grace, imho.

[shanstress70]

Sorry to de-rail this thread, but PC, you mentioned predestination. This is something I have a problem with. Am I just not understanding it correctly, or does it mean that God has already decided who will be saved, regardless of what they do? The reason I ask is because one of the churches that I'm interested in is the Presbyterian church, and they believe in predestination. I can't quite get past that.

In fact, don't all of the liberal protestant churches believe in predestination?

And I am with you guys on the infant baptism thing. I don't think Infant Baptism is necessary either.

These two issues are a roadblocks for me.

There are some non-denominational churches (some of which are huge!) close to me which focus on a personal relationship with Christ. They believe in baptism at age of consent. I may have to check out some of them. One of them has 3500 attendees each week, and you can choose to watch the service on a big-screen from a Starbuck's cafe on site! Not sure I would get into such a thing, but I want to visit out of curiosity!

Why is it so hard for me to find a church??? I guess I'm asking too much.

[Maureen]

And I am with you guys on the infant baptism thing. I don't think Infant Baptism is necessary either.

Hi shanstress - a bazillion years ago (or it seems that long) when LDStalk was young a poster named Kathryn came to visit and baptism was discussed. In explaining her churches thoughts on baptism she asked her pastor some questions and then she posted his response here and I liked it so much I kept a copy of it. Here's part of Pastor Bill's explanation regarding baptism:

...So what is the justification for infant baptism, since it is neither prohibited or prescribed in scripture. Basically it grew to be practiced in the early church (not specifically mentioned in the Bible, but written about in other ancient documents about life in the Christian community of that time) because of certain whole households being brought into the Christian faith. Everyone in those circumstances was baptized, women, slaves, children...everyone. Sometimes they were immersed, sometimes water was poured, and sometimes-because water is a scarce and precious commodity in that part of the world-water was simply applied. Water was the sign of the inward grace of God. Persons were "born of water and the spirit." The quantity of water was secondary to the reality of their being born anew into the Christian community and the way of eternal life by the gracious, unearned, un-sought-for act of God in the life, death, and resurrection Of Jesus Christ.

What was it that Jesus said? "You did not choose me, but I chose you." (John 15:16) Do we choose grace? Does grace become effective in our lives only when we come to the age of decision. No, God's grace is already active and present in our lives from the moment of our birth...indeed, our conception. It is grace that chooses us. Baptism signifies that profound reality. We would be lost in the world were it not for God's reaching out to us in love and forgiveness. Baptism celebrates that grace we can never earn or deserve. "While we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly....While we were yet sinners Christ died for us." (Rom. 5:6-8) Who demonstrates more powerlessness than an infant? (Except, of course, for the power that the infant has to get his/her parents to respond to every beck and call!)

Now, all this is not to say that infant baptism is "superior" to youth or adult baptism as a sign of the radical grace of God. The point is that NO one stage of baptism is "superior" to any other. They all have their advantages and disadvantages. The point is the grace of God. When children are baptized, it is a sign (like everyone else who is baptized) of their entry into the family of faith. By baptism we are "adopted" into the family of Christ. For infants and children, it's like being adopted into a human family. They didn't choose to be adopted, like some children saying, "I didn't ask to be born into this family!. That's true. They didn't choose. The family chose them...chose to love and to nurture them, regardless....

In our baptism services you'll recall that everyone makes a covenant. (Find a UM Hymnal and look in the front at the Baptismal Covenant services) God reminds us of the covenant that God has made with us to be our God forever. Parents make a covenant to keep their child within the ministry of the church and to raise him/her in the Christian faith. And the congregation makes a covenant to nurture the child and the family in love and faith. All participate together in this nurturing covenant with the aim that one day, the child having grown and considered the faith that he/she has been raised in is, indeed, the faith the he/she now confirms in his/her own heart, mind, soul, and daily life. That's called "Confirmation" in the church...

M.

[Dr T]

Thanks for contributing Lindy, PC (not to be confused with Politically Correct), Begood, Shan, & Maureen.

Shanstress70, I actually appreciate your comments on this thread. I didn’t take it as derailing. Actually, I take everyone’s contribution here as “filling in my understanding. (or at least showing me how much I don’t understand.)” The topics in this short thread have already brought up a lot of questions for me. They should be moved to another forum though. Maybe the Gospel Discussion Board? I’m looking into Lindy and Begood’s concepts and trying to see the differences of the LDS beliefs and traditional Christianity’s view of these topics.

Thanks again,

Dr. T

[shanstress70]

Thanks Maureen,

That's an interesting way of looking at it. I have heard some people say that infant baptism in some churches are more like a dedication and committment by the parents that they will bring their child up with Christian beliefs. Kind of like a baby blessing in the LDS faith, perhaps?

I don't think the liberal protestant churches (Lutheran, Episcopal, Presbyterian, UCC, Methodist, etc) believe that babies who die before baptism go somewhere other than heaven. Or do they believe they will be in limbo, like the Catholics believe?

If anyone knows, please share.

As far as the pre-destination thing goes, if I'm missing the point of that, someone please let me know. I find it hard to believe that Christians can think such a thing, so there must be an explanation that I'm not finding.

[Maureen]

As far as the pre-destination thing goes, if I'm missing the point of that, someone please let me know. I find it hard to believe that Christians can think such a thing, so there must be an explanation that I'm not finding.

It's me again. For clarification here's some definitions:

e·lec·tion

3. Predestined salvation, especially as conceived by Calvinists.

pre·des·ti·na·tion

2. Theology.

a. The doctrine that God has foreordained all things, especially that God has elected certain souls to eternal salvation.

b. The divine decree foreordaining all souls to either salvation or damnation.

c. The act of God foreordaining all things gone before and to come.

I really enjoy going to bible.org, they have some great essays there to read. I especially like reading Dr. Daniel Wallace's essays. Here's his explanation of the doctrine of Election:

My Understanding of the Biblical Doctrine of Election

By: Daniel B. Wallace , Th.M., Ph.D.

"I'm so glad that God chose me before the foundation of the world, because he never would have chosen me after I was born!" Charles Haddon Spurgeon

The following is a brief discussion of what I understand the biblical doctrine of election to mean....

http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=1551

It's not a very long essay.

M.

[Maureen]

I don't think the liberal protestant churches (Lutheran, Episcopal, Presbyterian, UCC, Methodist, etc) believe that babies who die before baptism go somewhere other than heaven. Or do they believe they will be in limbo, like the Catholics believe?

If anyone knows, please share.

Can't get rid of me.

I haven't attended my Lutheran church in many years and it's been many years since I was confirmed (2 years of Confirmation classes), so I've looked up information that may help:

Statement on Sacramental Practices Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada

4.0 ~ Practical Principles: Baptism

4.1 ~ Baptism is administered with water in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

4.2 ~ In the baptismal celebration water is used generously. A variety of modes is used; pouring and immersion are rich symbols of the nature of Baptism.

4.3 ~ Candidates for Baptism are those children born to members of the congregation, children for whom other congregational members assume the responsibility of nurture in the faith, and older children or adults who, following preparation and instruction, declare their faith in Jesus Christ and desire Baptism.

4.4 ~ Baptism is preceded by a period of instruction. Such instruction in faith and life constitutes training in discipleship. When young children are baptized, the parents and sponsors are instructed; otherwise the baptismal candidates themselves are instructed. This training in discipleship continues for the life of the baptized.

4.5 ~ The celebration of the Sacrament of Baptism ordinarily includes the following: presentation, thanksgiving, renunciation of sin and evil, profession of faith, baptism with water, laying on of hands and invocation of the Holy Spirit, signing with the cross and welcome into the congregation.

Note: Signing with the cross is new. When I attended my Lutheran church we did not sign the cross.

4.6 ~ Baptism normally takes place within the corporate worship of the congregation and is administered by an ordained minister called by the congregation or by an ordained minister granted permission by the former (Constitution for Synods, Article VII, Section 8).

4.7 ~ In cases of emergency, a person may be baptized by any Christian in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Should sudden death preclude such a Baptism, we believe the grace of God will prevail.

http://www.worship.ca/docs/sp_stmt.html

M.

[shanstress70]

Good info, once again Maureen... thanks!

I have looked up 'baptism' under each denomination, and most of what I find just states that they do believe in infant baptism. However, I can find much info about what they believe happens if a baby dies and hasn't been baptized. I'm glad to see that they were specific about that.

[prisonchaplain]

In fact, don't all of the liberal protestant churches believe in predestination?

Churches that are "Calvinist" believe in predestination. The most well-known of these is the Presbyterians churches (both PCUSA and PCA). In many ways, you might resonate with the PCUSA, as it is quite "liberal" on social issues. But, yes, it is Calvinist.

I don't think all liberal churches are predestinationist, though. I doubt the Episcopal Church is, nor would the United Church of Christ or the U/U church.

And I am with you guys on the infant baptism thing. I don't think Infant Baptism is necessary either. These two issues are a roadblocks for me.

There are plenty of churches from liberal to fundamentalists that are not Calvinist, and who practice believer's baptism. You might even consider looking at the General Baptist (not nearly as conservative as the Southern).

There are some non-denominational churches (some of which are huge!) close to me which focus on a personal relationship with Christ. They believe in baptism at age of consent. I may have to check out some of them. One of them has 3500 attendees each week, and you can choose to watch the service on a big-screen from a Starbuck's cafe on site! Not sure I would get into such a thing, but I want to visit out of curiosity!

With nondenominational churches you simply have to visit them several times, to see what they believe and how they carry on worship. Most of these megachurches are evangelical, moderately conservative, and most are not Calvinist or predestinationist. It is possible to have close friends and fellowship in large churches. The key is to get involved in small group activities. Dr. Cho's Yoido Full Gospel Church in Seoul, Korea has 840,000 members in one church. Yet, weekly, members congregate in one another's homes for "cell groups." They pray for each other, study together, eat together, and share life.

Why is it so hard for me to find a church??? I guess I'm asking too much.

It's okay to ask a lot, so long as once you find home, you give a lot too! BTW, if you enjoy modern worship music, a serious, yet easy-going tempo, and an emphasis on love, grace, and understanding, consider some of the charismatic churches, such as the Vineyard Christian Fellowship.

[Dr T]

Hey P.C.,

I don't know anything about you. I'm just trying to get a bearing of the type of believer you are. Would you be the type of person someone would call a "holy roller"? A Benny Hin type? e.g., Holy laughter, let it "bubble out the belly," people slain in the spirit, speaking in tongues makes you a "higher ranking" Christian? Just curious.

Thanks,

Dr. T

[prisonchaplain]

I don't know anything about you. I'm just trying to get a bearing of the type of believer you are. Would you be the type of person someone would call a "holy roller"? A Benny Hin type? e.g., Holy laughter, let it "bubble out the belly," people slain in the spirit, speaking in tongues makes you a "higher ranking" Christian? Just curious. Thanks, Dr. T

The Assemblies of God is a classic Pentecostal movement. We do believe that the gifts of the Spirit are for today, including speaking in tongues. What do the gifts of the Spirit do for believers? It's not that they make me better than you, but rather that they make me more effective than I would be without them. It'd be akin to me mowing my lawn with a self-propelling model, vs. a straight push one. You might get the job done either way, but have the extra power sure makes it go easier. B)

Benny Hinn will have to speak for himself. He tried coming under the A/G, but found the fit not to his liking, and so is independent. Holy laughter was a spiritual fad that did not last long. It was a silly way to measure spirituality. On the other hand, there are times when the Holy Spirit can fill one with incredible joy that brings laughter. "Holy roller" is most often meant negatively, but if God wants to lay me out and do His work within me, during an altar service, camp meeting, or even in my prayer closet, then He's welcome to do so.

On a personal level, people don't peg me as Pentecostal. Probably due to my heritage and upbringing, they're more likely to think me Lutheran (Minnesota bloodline). I love the warmth, passion, and utter spiritual dependence on God that my movement fosters.

Hopefully, the above gives you a sense of where I'm at with God and within the Christian family.

[mom_of_jcchlsm]

I wonder --- has anyone ever seen one of those family tree posters showing how different rock bands fit in with one another? Like an evolutionary branching of influence? Would it be possible to make a family tree of modern churches? (crazy thought: by LDS standards, the original tree has several withered branches, some of which still have a little life in them, but none of which carry unmutated DNA -- next to the original tree there is a new, fresh tree, which was grown from another seed, which is genetically identical to the original; there are cuttings and replantings and roots grown deep. Hmmmm.)

[Dr T]

Thanks P.C.,

I'm sorry to make the derogatory statement, "holy roller." I didn't know it had a negative connotation. I've been putting my foot in my mouth recently without even recognizing it. I didn't mean to. Sorry. You answer did help me understand a little bit about where you are coming from. Are you part of the word of faith movement then?

Thanks for answering my questions,

Dr. T

[Heather]

My Grandmother was Catholic, until a Catholic priest announced to the congregation that a baby who had died recently in the neighborhood would be going to hell, because he was never baptised. She couldn't see how God would allow an innocent baby to go to hell, especially considering that the baby had no choice whether he was baptised or not.

My Grandmother converted to Mormonism several years later.