tasted of its sweetness

[Stacy]

As Latter day Saints we must understand that it is our responsibility to study correct political principles as well as religious. Not to be political but to proclaim liberty. As citizens of this republic and heirs of this Constitution we have experienced freedom, we have tasted of its sweetness and it sweet like the Gospel it protects. The spread of freedom and the Gospel are harmonious.

We know, for it has been revealed, that the Constitution is inspired and that it is the law that makes us free. Heavenly Father established this republic for his own purposes, for the salvation of his children, that the law and the Gospel may go from this nation unto all others. The perpetuation of freedom is our greatest immediate responsibility...let me emphasize immediate. People can only accept the Gospel if they are free to do so! It is the spirit of Satan that brings men down unto captivity by the powers of earthly governments, for he still seeks to take away our free agency. There is secret combinations to over throw the freedom of this country and all lands. This is a battle that began in the counsel in heaven and we are now entering the final stages. Many of us have been held back by the hand of the Lord to come forth at this time, to prepare the way for the coming of Christ. We are a chosen generation.

Much is required of us because much has been given and we will need bravery and boldness because we are enlisted in the Lords army at the end of this battle but fear not for he is with us even unto the end. Our sword is truth! Rejoice, for there are more that be with us, then be with them. The hosts of heaven are gathered to battle in our favor and God will preserve his people. Pray always, store up his words in your heart that you may be ready in the time in his wisdom to be sent out, to testify unto this people. Serve God with all your might, mind and strength that you will be ready to stand in the fire. In the name Jesus Christ Amen.

[mightynancy]

Here we go.

[Dravin]

Not to be political

Depending on how one defines being political we should be. The church:

Encourage its members to play a role as responsible citizens in their communities, including becoming informed about issues and voting in elections.

Expect its members to engage in the political process in an informed and civil manner, respecting the fact that members of the Church come from a variety of backgrounds and experiences and may have differences of opinion in partisan political matters.

Political Neutrality - LDS Newsroom

We know, for it has been revealed, that the Constitution is inspired and that it is the law that makes us free.

It's the law the preserves our already default (politically) free state from the incursion by others (or at least tries to). A fine distinction but an important one in my mind.

The perpetuation of freedom is our greatest immediate responsibility...let me emphasize immediate.

Our greatest immediate responsibility is to seek spiritual freedom via Christ our Lord. Indeed you find the Church gladly preaching the Gospel in countries that by multiple ideals of freedom aren't free. The Church built a temple in the German Democratic Republic in the 80s even.

One can argue that there is a feedback loop between some political freedoms and spiritual freedom, but I wouldn't say the perpetuation (or even more, exportation) of political freedoms is the greatest immediate responsibility of the Church (or by extension, its members). Though as mentioned seeking political freedoms (particularly where it concerns worship) is certainly important.

And that is without touching the can of worms about just what freedoms we have to begin with.

Edited January 19, 2011 by Dravin

[Guest leodown]

The Feast of Christmas

It is not LA escort easy to pin-point the origins of the Christmas feast, today LA escorts the more important feast of the Christmas season in most western Christian LA asian escort churches. One can only say for certain that the birth of Jesus LA asian escorts Christ was being celebrated in Rome.

[Stacy]

Depending on how one defines being political we should be. The church:

It is absolutely correct for the church to encourage civic duty and political discourse:

Political Neutrality - LDS Newsroom

The Proper Role of Government by Ezra Taft Benson. The principles of proper government.

Quote: It's the law the preserves our already default (politically) free state from the incursion by others (or at least tries to). A fine distinction but an important one in my mind."

Our greatest immediate responsibility is to seek spiritual freedom via Christ our Lord. Indeed you find the Church gladly preaching the Gospel in countries that by multiple ideals of freedom aren't free. The Church built a temple in the German Democratic Republic in the 80s even.

One can argue that there is a feedback loop between some political freedoms and spiritual freedom, but I wouldn't say the perpetuation (or even more, exportation) of political freedoms is the greatest immediate responsibility of the Church (or by extension, its members). Though as mentioned seeking political freedoms (particularly where it concerns worship) is certainly important.

And that is without touching the can of worms about just what freedoms we have to begin with.

mportant one in my mind."

And now, verily I say unto you concerning the laws of the land, it is my will that my people should observe to do all things whatsoever I command them.

And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me.

Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the aconstitutional law of the land;

And as pertaining to law of man, whatsoever is more or less than this, cometh of evil.

I, the Lord God, make you afree, therefore ye are free indeed; and the law also maketh you free.

Nevertheless, when the awicked brule the people mourn.

Wherefore, honest men and wise men should be sought for diligently, and good men and wise men ye should observe to uphold; otherwise whatsoever is less than these cometh of evil. D&C 98 4:10

The perpetuation of freedom is our greatest immediate responsibility....

“No greater immediate responsibility rests upon the members of the church, upon all citizens of this republic and of neighboring republics than to protect the freedom vouchsafed by the Constitution of the United States.” -Ezra Taft Benson

“Efforts are being made to deprive man of his free agency – to steal from the individual his liberty…. There has been an alarming increase in the abandoning of the ideals that constitute the foundation of the Constitution of the United States.” -Ezra Taft Benson

“There should be no question in the mind of any true latter day saint as to what we shall preach… the gospel plan of salvation.”

Then President McKay lists the areas our preaching should cover and admonishes us to include in our preaching what governments should or should not do in the interests of the preservation of our freedom.

-Ezra Taft Benson

Protecting Freedom: A Basic Part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ of LDS

The War in Heaven: Continues on Earth Today

God has revealed much on this topic my only ambition was to encourage these principles. The book of mormon also details the collapse of two civilizations and we have a lot to learn from it.

And whatsoever nation shall uphold such secret combinations, to get power and gain, until they shall spread over the nation, behold, they shall be destroyed; for the Lord will not suffer that the bblood of his saints, which shall be shed by them, shall always cry unto him from the ground for cvengeance upon them and yet he avenge them not.

Wherefore, O ye Gentiles, it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get apower and gain—and the work, yea, even the work of bdestruction come upon you, yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be.

Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this asecret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.

For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the afreedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies; even that same liar who bbeguiled our first parents, yea, even that same liar who hath caused man to commit murder from the beginning; who hath chardened the hearts of men that they have dmurdered the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out from the beginning.

Wherefore, I, Moroni, am commanded to write these things that evil may be done away, and that the time may come that Satan may have ano power upon the hearts of the children of men, but that they may be bpersuaded to do good continually, that they may come unto the fountain of all crighteousness and be saved. Ether 8:22-26

I don't seek to contend and leave my well wishes...may the spirit of truth rest upon the saints on the internet.

~Stacy

Edited January 20, 2011 by Stacy
section 98:4-10 was in the quote box on accident

[Dravin]

And yet it is most expedient in Christ that his word go forth among the children of men.

I'm sensing a hobby horse. I highly doubt President Benson would say in all honesty with intensifying words striped that exporting political freedoms is more important than seeking justification through Christ. Though I can certainly see the argument that those freedoms are important inasmuch as they allow one to pursue such unmolested.

To say, in all earnestness with no hyperbole for rhetoric effect, there is nothing more important than the preaching of political freedoms is to say that it takes precedence over the preaching of Christ. Once again, I doubt President Benson would agree.

Edit: Note I do not think political freedom is unimportant or not worth expending time and energy pursuing. I disagree however that it takes precedence over all.

Edited January 19, 2011 by Dravin

[FunkyTown]

Actually, I'd like to applaud Stacy. I agree with pretty much everything she said.

She didn't say 'Anyone who votes Democrat is an evil baby-killer' or 'If you don't love Fox News, you're the devil incarnate'.

She said very simply and eloquently that there are wicked people trying to manipulate the government and that it is our duty to be watchful. All true.

[pam]

Great...now you just opened it up. :)

[rameumptom]

I agree that ensuring freedom is important to the Gospel. Having said that, I would then state that there is a difference between promoting freedom and promoting free enterprise. China has free enterprise, but still engages in human rights violations.

Freedom of thought, expression, belief, religion, speech are more important than just about any other political right. Sadly, most Americans are focused on economic well being, rather than on freedom. And it is this reason we are in the economic struggles we are in right now.

Had we focused on freedom rather than on having government become our daycare, we would not have had the crashes we've had. Still have struggles? Yes. But Americans would have been better able to deal with those struggles if they were focused on freedom and its sister, self-reliance.

[Guest]

[ADoyle90815]

[rameumptom]

Ahhhh, but is your popcorn buttered on the left side or the right?????

[Stacy]

I am personally anti-communism/socialism and just about every ism imagined. The kingdom of God can not be established by the compulsory means of an earthly government be it a civil or church government. Nor can the Kingdom be established when the hearts of the children of men or set so much upon the things of this world.

Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?

Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—

That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

How long can rolling waters remain impure? What power shall stay the heavens? As well might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri river in its decreed course, or to turn it up stream, as to hinder the Almighty from pouring down knowledge from heaven upon the heads of the Latter-day Saints. D&C 121

Ask and it shall be given knock and it shall be opened, seek and ye shall find and the mysteries of God shall be manifest by the power of the Holy Ghost.

let him who hath ear hear what the spirit saith unto the churches

Now, regarding the combination to over throw the freedoms of all lands. I testify that it is among us and is looming over head and we are circled around about and it must needs be that our hearts turn to the God of this land who is Jesus Christ for his coming brings deliverance. The justice of the living God and the preservation of his flock. Give ear unto Moroni for he crys from the dust. Listen to the Lord's prophets for his course is one eternal round. Remember God requires the heart and a willing mind.

Concerning rights and the conspiracy facts, among us. Listen, for there was no conspiracy theory in the book of mormon it was a conspiracy fact. And it is revealed that the they are had among all men and the founder of them is the devil for he seeks to deceive our very elect in both civil and church governments.

hear wisdom,

Rights, they are either God-given as part of a divine plan, or they are granted by the government as part of a political plan....if we except that human rights are granted by government, then we must also be willing to except that they can be denied by government.

Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.

[Civil] Government is nothing more than a relatively small group of citizens who have been hired, in a sense, by the rest of us to preform certain functions and discharge certain responsibilities we have authorized....the government itself has no innate power nor privilege to do anything. Its only source of authority and power is from the people who have created it. -Ezra Taft Benson

And thus saith the lord,

I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.

the laws and constitution of the people, which I have suffered to be established, and should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles;

That every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment.

Therefore, it is not right that any man should be in bondage one to another. D&C 101

And now, verily I say unto you concerning the laws of the land, it is my will that my people should observe to do all things whatsoever I command them.

And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me.

And as pertaining to law of man, whatsoever is more or less than this, cometh of evil. D&C 98

This is why we must seek diligently to preserve the law of Christ given to this land and why we should seek to uphold wise, good and honest men.

The Lord countinues

I, the Lord God, make you free, therefore ye are free indeed; and the law also maketh you free.

Nevertheless, when the wicked rule the people mourn.

consider this,

wo unto him that has the law given, yea, that has all the commandments of God, like unto us, and that transgresseth them, and that wasteth the days of his probation, for awful is his state!

O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.

-2Nep 9:17-28

Thus we see that zeal without knowledge brings no fruit.

Wickedness is more highly organized, more cleverly disguised, and more powerfully promoted than ever before. Secret combinations lusting for power, gain, and glory are flourishing. A secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world." -Ezra Taft Benson

"There are some who feel that the fight for freedom is separate from the gospel. They express it in several ways, but it generally boils down to this: Just live the gospel; there's no need to get involved in trying to save freedom and the Constitution or to stop communism. Of course, this is dangerous reasoning, because in reality you cannot fully live the gospel without working to save freedom and the Constitution, and to stop communism...our stand for freedom is a most basic part of our religion." -Ezra Taft Benson

Communism is not a political party nor a political plan under the Constitution; it is a system of government that is the opposite of our Constitutional government, and it would be necessary to destroy our government before Communism could be set up in the United States. Since Communism, established, would destroy our American Constitutional government, to support communism is treasonable to our free institutions, and no patriotic American citizen may become either a Communist or supporter of Communism. -

The First Presidency

We know that we had our agency before this world was and that Lucifer attempted to take it from us. He had no confidence in the principle of agency or in us and argued for imposed salvation. He insisted that with his plan none would be lost, but he seemed not to recognize—or perhaps not to care—that in addition, none would be any wiser, any stronger, any more compassionate, or any more grateful if his plan were followed. -Thomas Monson

How would you have reacted if during the war in heaven someone said to you, "look just do what is right there is no need to get involved in the fight for free agency. Now, it is obvious what the devil is trying to do, but it is sad to see many fall for his destructive line. The cause of freedom is the most basic part of religion. Our position on freedom helped us get to this earth and can make the difference if we get back home or not. -Ezra Taft Benson

"Communism is turning out to be the earthly image of the plan which Satan presented in the pre-existence. The whole program of socialistic-communism is essentially a war against God and the plan of salvation..."-Ezra Taft Benson

To our Church members we say: Communism is not the United Order, and bears only the most superficial resemblance thereto; Communism is based upon intolerance and force, the United Order upon love and freedom of conscience and action; Communism involves forceful despoliation and confiscation, the United Order voluntary consecration and sacrifice. Communists cannot establish the United Order, nor will Communism bring it about.

-The First Presidency

I believe in a pride thats stunning

and I believe in the Kingdom coming

I believe if you seek the truth

you don't got to go far because its gonna find you:)

and thus saith the Lord

For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

And the whole world lieth in sin, and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin.

And by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin, because they come not unto me.

For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin.

And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with amy voice, and is not of me.

And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.

And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written— D&C 84

Verily, verily, I say unto you who now hear my words, which are my voice, blessed are ye inasmuch as you receive these things;

For I will forgive you of your sins with this commandment—that you remain steadfast in your minds in solemnity and the spirit of prayer, in bearing testimony to all the world of those things which are communicated unto you.

Therefore, ago ye into all the world; and unto whatsoever place ye cannot go ye shall send, that the testimony may go from you into all the world unto every creature.-D&C 84

Hearken, O ye people of my church, saith the Lord your God, and hear the word of the Lord concerning you—

The Lord who shall suddenly come to his temple; the Lord who shall come down upon the world with a curse to judgment; yea, upon all the nations that forget God, and upon all the ungodly among you.

For he shall make bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of their God....

Go ye out from Babylon. Be ye clean that bear the vessels of the Lord....

Go ye out from among the nations, even from Babylon, from the midst of wickedness, which is spiritual Babylon.

D&C 133

Be mindful,

[We]are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit;

And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom.

There is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God. But God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead; and the resurrection of the dead bringeth back men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be judged according to their works, according to the law and justice. Alma 42:22-23

My dearly beloved brothern, I labor diligently that I may help bring you to a knowledge of the truth according the the manifestations of the Holy Spirit according to the will of Christ. That I may act according to the commandments he has given me. Therefore, hearken unto the voice of your God, lest death shall overtake you; in an hour when ye think not the summer shall be past, and the harvest ended, and your souls not saved. For the field is white and ready to harvest.

O prepare ye saints, seek his face because destruction will come upon this land and those saints who are waiting will be left to greet him. Remember we are saved by the grace of Jesus Christ rely on his perfect sacrifice and serve him. Remember if you desire you are called to the work for the worth of souls is great in the sight of God. Rely on the Spirit to be your guide and cast your heart upon Zion for our God shall soon stand amongst his faithful. Peace and love to you my friends:)

Edited January 21, 2011 by Stacy
I meant to put in Alma 42 not 41

[Dravin]

I am personally anti-communism/socialism and just about every ism imagined.

Capitalism? Libertarianism? Republicanism? Democratism? Constitutionalism? Civicism? Egalitarianism? Patriotism? Altruism?

An *ism is a set of beliefs or doctrines held to be true by some group. I'm thinking you may need to narrow down your dislike of isms as taken literally you are against about every set of beliefs imaginable held by some group.

Edited January 21, 2011 by Dravin

[Guest mormonmusic]

I'm into anti-vegetarianism.

[Dravin]

I'm into anti-vegetarianism.

Make it antiPETAism and I'm on board.

[MarginOfError]

I'm thinking you may need to narrow down your dislike of isms as taken literally you are against about every set of beliefs imaginable held by some group.

And I'm thinking the quote function would make this an awful lot more readable.

But I agree with you Dravin...we have another hobby horse. After laying into the priesthood ban horse the past couple of days, I'm not sure I should lay into the communism horse. It might get ugly.

[areyoutrueblue]

The word "God" doesn't appear in the Constitution anywhere. If you haven't actually read the whole thing, you should.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

The word "God" doesn't appear in the Constitution anywhere. If you haven't actually read the whole thing, you should.

I disagree with my Mormon brothers and sisters that the Constitution is inspired. As a Catholic, inspired means canonized and nothing has ever been canonized that isn't of a specific religious interest. The Constitution is a framework of government and nothing more. Though the framers were godly men, they were creating an earthly government. I think it's dangerous when the kingdom of heaven and earthly kingdoms are undistinguishable. Jesus said He is not of this world nor of an earthly kingdom, nor, in the augmentation of scripture, is anything included that promotes an earthly kingdom, for then how does it benefit all Christians all over the globe?

This is why I'm Catholic. Christ left behind an organized, unified Church with a visible structure of authority for deciding ecclesiastical and doctrinal matters. No group or denomination breaks away from the Church while still retaining the authority of the Church. This is a recipe for disaster as even Martin Luther saw in his lifetime.

But back to the Constitution, if ours is inspired, then why not another nation's? And if another nation's is inspired, then what if those two nations, both believing they have the imprimatur of heaven, get into a conflict. Can we see a storm brewing on the horizon?

[Dravin]

As a Catholic, inspired means canonized and nothing has ever been canonized that isn't of a specific religious interest.

We have a hugely different meaning of the word inspired. If one is giving a talk or writing a letter to a friend who needs help and you receive guidance from the spirit on just what to say to best reach your friend your letter or talk was inspired. Or if one is lost and confused and receive prompting by the Holy Ghost to turn down this next street one was inspired.

Some LDS tend to read that the constitution was inspired almost to imply it is canon of sorts. What it really means is that those who put it together were receiving light from Christ while doing so and it contains true principles (like separation of Church and State for instance), but it does not make inerrant scripture or anything like that. For instance I'm disinclined to read the 3/5th compromise as divinely inspired but political wrangling.

But back to the Constitution, if ours is inspired, then why not another nation's? And if another nation's is inspired, then what if those two nations, both believing they have the imprimatur of heaven, get into a conflict. Can we see a storm brewing on the horizon?

Only if one sees inspiration in a founding document as some sort of Right of Kings situtation. Which arguably LDS don't. If nothing else we have members in countries other than this one who disagree with our (US) political actions all the time, they certainly aren't censured for it. Heck, there are members here who disagree with our political actions all the time.

Edited January 23, 2011 by Dravin

[slamjet]

I disagree with my Mormon brothers and sisters that the Constitution is inspired. As a Catholic, inspired means canonized and nothing has ever been canonized that isn't of a specific religious interest. The Constitution is a framework of government and nothing more. Though the framers were godly men, they were creating an earthly government. I think it's dangerous when the kingdom of heaven and earthly kingdoms are undistinguishable. Jesus said He is not of this world nor of an earthly kingdom, nor, in the augmentation of scripture, is anything included that promotes an earthly kingdom, for then how does it benefit all Christians all over the globe?

This is why I'm Catholic. Christ left behind an organized, unified Church with a visible structure of authority for deciding ecclesiastical and doctrinal matters. No group or denomination breaks away from the Church while still retaining the authority of the Church. This is a recipe for disaster as even Martin Luther saw in his lifetime.

But back to the Constitution, if ours is inspired, then why not another nation's? And if another nation's is inspired, then what if those two nations, both believing they have the imprimatur of heaven, get into a conflict. Can we see a storm brewing on the horizon?

We, as an LDS church, believe that this land was set apart from all others with a promise that as long as we keep God's commandments, then we will, as a nation, be the beacon for all the world. We also believe via our prophets that the constitution is an inspired document, along with the writers of it having been inspired of God. Does that mean it or they are perfect? Not by any means. However, very few countries in the world have a mechanism and tradition of peaceful passage of laws and transfer of power.

Now, do we believe that the constitution is canonized scripture? No. And do we believe that this country is immune from the influence of the evil one among it's leaders? Not by a long shot. A reading of the Book of Mormon will give you a more complete picture on how and why we believe the way we do. Until you read this book, you will not understand us and our feelings for this country and constitution.

And as far as Christ's church being preserved and continued down through the ages, we are not, nor do we claim to be an offshoot of the Catholic church. We believe to be a restored church, restored by Jesus Christ through Joseph Smith with all the authority brought back to this earth. That is one of our basic doctrines. But that's been covered extensively in this forum so I won't go into it here.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

We, as an LDS church, believe that this land was set apart from all others with a promise that as long as we keep God's commandments, then we will, as a nation, be the beacon for all the world. We also believe via our prophets that the constitution is an inspired document, along with the writers of it having been inspired of God. Does that mean it or they are perfect? Not by any means. However, very few countries in the world have a mechanism and tradition of peaceful passage of laws and transfer of power.

I can very much see the argument that the Constitution is a corollary of liberty that comes from the gospel of Christ:

John 4:

16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.

17 And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:

18 “ The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me,

Because He has anointed Me

To preach the gospel to the poor;

He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,[j]

To proclaim liberty to the captives

And recovery of sight to the blind,

To set at liberty those who are oppressed;

19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD.”[k]

20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him.

21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

22 So all bore witness to Him, and marveled at the gracious words which proceeded out of His mouth. And they said, “Is this not Joseph’s son?”

Where the gospel is preached, political liberty would soon follow spiritual liberty. It should also be observed soberly that if we abandon the gospel, the loss of liberty shall inevitably follow as well.

Now, do we believe that the constitution is canonized scripture? No. And do we believe that this country is immune from the influence of the evil one among it's leaders? Not by a long shot. A reading of the Book of Mormon will give you a more complete picture on how and why we believe the way we do. Until you read this book, you will not understand us and our feelings for this country and constitution.

Though I won't read the Book of Mormon in its entirety, I have read parts and I understand the general narrative. I'm not unaware of the Israelism that sets the tone for your faith. After all, if the Nephites as a lost tribe of Israel, had once possessed this land, then this is the Promised Land. Believe it or not, I do try to understand your faith.

And as far as Christ's church being preserved and continued down through the ages, we are not, nor do we claim to be an offshoot of the Catholic church. We believe to be a restored church, restored by Jesus Christ through Joseph Smith with all the authority brought back to this earth. That is one of our basic doctrines. But that's been covered extensively in this forum so I won't go into it here.

I know. You believe the Church lapsed for several centuries until the restoration. As a Native American and as a Catholic, I try not to take offense at some LDS beliefs; and succeed more often than not.

[pam]

I

You believe the Church lapsed for several centuries until the restoration. As a Native American and as a Catholic, I try not to take offense at some LDS beliefs; and succeed more often than not.

Nor do we take offense that you don't believe as we do.

[Dravin]

I

Nor do we take offense that you don't believe as we do.

What if it's a belief about the Chargers?

[pam]

Then them is fightin' words. :)