Is the final judgment permanent?

[Guest LDS_Guy_1986]

Again, my understanding is all those who die without a knowledge of the gospel will go to Spirit Prison. Here they will be taught the gospel. But keep in mind, that in order to go to the Celestial Kingdom one must be baptized. Whether on earth or by proxy. So even those that accept it while in the spirit prison must wait for their work to be done. Again, why temple work is so important here on earth.

The good news though these spirits are still stuck in prison until there temple work is done, they still enter into the rest of Christ will in prison!

So we do not have to worry about our ancestors suffering unnecessarily in spirit prison because we do not know all of them yet, to perform there temple work!

I just can't wait for the Millennium when we are all working together to complete all the temple work under the personal reign of Jesus Christ!

I know I will be there whether in flesh or the spirit doing my part for my ancestors!

[thebee62]

This is a deep subject. Possibly one that we need not speculate on but know that we cannot know all things at this time. However, it is my own personal belief that progression is eternal. Why would it not be? Afterall, our Heavenly Father has created all things on an eternal basis. I am stumped though on this:

The second degree of glory is the Terrestrial Kingdom and its glory is compared with that of the moon. Those who inherit this kingdom of glory are they who were good people during life but "were blinded by the craftiness of men." (see DC 76:75) They are also those who:

"died without law;

"Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.

"These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.

"These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God" (D&C 76:72,74,77,79.)

The part that makes me pause is this ~ "Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it". I have family that have never truly received a testimony in this life. Therefore, I know that they will not be held accountable in the same manner as I. But so does this mean that even if they gain a testimony in spirit prison, they are consigned forever to the terrestial kingdom?

Believing in eternal progression, this makes little sense to me as a mere mortal. I know that God is merciful, kind and loving. I know that He will do ALL in His power to return ALL his children to Him. So...

Just food for thought. Would be wonderful if someone else knows more about this...

Just Me

[thebee62]

As far as my understanding of the scriptures, we only have till judgement day to prepare for eternity, all the scriptures seem to be very clear on this. After resurrection there is no more opportunities to grow beyond what we have chosen to do.

Remember that after judgement the veil is fully removed and we once again obtain a full knowledge of our premortal existence, once we have that full premortal existence knowledge we cannot progress since we can only grow through faith and choice.

The time for faith and choice past at judgement!

I can recall which Apostle it was but in General Conference an Apostle spoke of time on the Earth and in the spirit world (before judgement) as a currency to spend and invest as desire. Once the day of judgement arrives though we have no more currency to spend and if we have not purchased with our time the necessary conditions for exaltation we get no second chance.

Those who failed to do what was required will never inherit any higher glory then they received in judgement.

There is no scripture that I know of that suggests that we can progress post judgement. The very thought of post judgement progression is a offense to the justice of God in my opinion.

I posted before I had read your comment. Sorry..... kind of asked the same 'ole question that was before.

But I cannot think for the life of me why there would be no more progression... It kind of defeats our purpose, doesn't it?

[Saldrin]

Is the final judgment permanent? Meaning, if someone is consigned to the terrestrial kingdom (for example) is that person stuck in that kingdom for eternity? Or can they jump to the celestial kingdom after meeting certain conditions?

no idea here but I bet we are all going to find out!

[slamjet]

no idea here but I bet we are all going to find out!

Whether we like it or not

[thebee62]

Whether we like it or not

Bottom line.... We better do our best!:)

[Blackmarch]

just a couple things to think about...

God is just, and will treat everyone equally.. none will slip by his judgement, for good or for ill.

and second,

there are two parts or two spheres of influence that we can progress:

the internal and the external..

the internal encompasses us personally, its our thoughts, attitudes, knowledge and ability. this i think does have a point where it can't be improved anymore (IE perfection as god is like).

then theres the external, this encompasses our fruits, how we affect the world around us, what we do, things like that... ..to this there is potentially no end of increasing.

anyways just a couple cents to think about.

[livy111us]

I have been having this discussion on another board, and I had to just leave. Advocates of this have to rely on their interpretation on a few scriptures and opinions of a few past GA's. Yet, they have to ignore scriptures which flat out say that this is not possible, and there are many of them. To me it seems obvious which makes a stronger case. Many scriptures and Prophets which say it cannot happen as opposed to conjecture and private interpretation of scripture. Here are several scriptures and quotes which I think make a very solid case against it, particular the origin of this doctrine coming from satan in the premortal council, and taught by the anti-Christ Nehor:

Why go to Church, keep the Word of Wisdom, Law of Chastity? Why is obedience stressed so hard in the Gospel today and consequences of not keeping those laws death, if we will all eventually be saved? To me, it does not fit in with the Gospel. But it does, however, fit into satans plan presented to the Father of saving everyone. Remember Christs plan was more difficult and some would be lost. Which does this sound like?

This notion of progression between kingdoms doctrine is exposed in the Book of Mormon, when the antichrist Nehor incorrectly taught that “all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble” since “in the end, all men should have eternal life” (Alma 1:4).

Mormon assures us that "every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God. But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one" (Moroni 7:16-17)

There are some people who have supposed that if we are quickened telestial bodies that eventually, throughout the ages of eternity, we will continue to progress until we will find our place in the celestial kingdom, but the Scriptures and revelations of God have said that those who are quickened telestial bodies cannot come where God and Christ dwell, worlds without end. -George Albert Smith, Conference Reports, p. 172, October, 1945

"Those whose lives have entitled them to terrestrial glory," he maintained, "can never gain celestial glory. One who gains possession of the lowest degree of the telestial glory may ultimately arise to the highest degree of that glory, but no provision has been made for promotion from one glory to another" ("Three Degrees of Glory," discourse delivered in the Ogden Tabernacle, 22 September 1922). Elder Ballard's feelings were later shared and echoed by Elders Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie. "It has been asked if it is possible for one who inherits the telestial glory to advance in time to the celestial glory?" Elder Smith posited. "The answer to this question," he continued, "is, No!" (Doctrines of Salvation II:31, emphasis in original). Elder McConkie forcefully remarked, "There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal world. Or if not that, lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were. This is worse than false. It is an evil and pernicious doctrine" ("Seven Deadly Heresies", 1 June 1980, unedited).

(Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, Pg.243-244) "Exaltation in the celestial kingdom will be granted to those only who enter and faithfully observe the covenant of celestial marriage. Christ says in unmistakable terms: In the celestial glory there are three heavens, or degrees;And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. He may enter into the other but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase (D&C 131:1-4. Italics added.) He cannot have an increase! He cannot have exaltation! That means worlds without end. After a person has been assigned to his place in the kingdom, either in the telestial, the terrestrial or the celestial, or to his exaltation, he will never advance from his assigned glory to another glory. That is eternal! That is why we must make our decisions early in life and why it is imperative that such decisions be right."

"They shall go away into everlasting punishment which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment." They are "the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power" after the resurrection; they are the only ones who shall not be "redeemed" from spiritual death "in the due time of the Lord, [and] after the sufferings of his wrath." (D&C 76:37-44.) As Alma expressed it: "They shall be as though there had been no redemption made; for they cannot be redeemed according to God's justice; and they cannot die seeing there is no more corruption." (Alma 12:18.) There are three kingdoms of glory in which resurrected men will be saved: the celestial, the terrestrial, and the telestial. "In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees." The highest of these is reserved for those who gain eternal life. All others are damned in the sense that their progress is limited. There are restrictions placed upon them; they have reached the "end of [their] kingdom"; they "cannot have an increase." (D&C 131:1, 4.)

Alma 34:33

I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

Alma 12: 24And we see that adeath comes upon mankind, yea, the death which has been spoken of by Amulek, which is the temporal death; nevertheless there was a space granted unto man in which he might repent; therefore this life became a probationary state; a time to dprepare to meet God; a time to prepare for that endless state which has been spoken of by us, which is after the resurrection of the dead.

D&C 76: 12 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

D&C 131: 4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

2 Ne. 9:27 But wo unto him that has the law given, yea, that has all the commandments of God, like unto us, and that transgresseth them, and that wasteth the days of his probation, for awful is his state!

(2 Nephi 9:46). ...remember [they're] awful guilt in perfectness, and be constrained to exclaim: Holy, holy are thy judgments, O Lord God Almighty—but I know my guilt; I transgressed thy law, and my transgressions are mine; and the devil hath obtained me, that I am a prey to his awful misery....

3 Ne. 28:34 And wo be unto him that will not hearken unto the words of Jesus, and also to them whom he hath chosen and sent among them; for whoso receivith not the words of Jesus and the words of those whom he hath sent receiveth not him; and therefore he will not receive them at the last day;

Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God

D/C 25:15 "Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come."

Alma 41:6: " If he hath repented of his sins, and desired righteousness until the end of his days, even so he shall be rewarded unto righteousness."

Alma 42:13 “Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed”

But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;...And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end. (D/C 76:109-112)

Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory. For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. (D/C 132:16-17)

But behold, your days of probation are past; ye have procrastinated the day of your salvation until it is everlastingly too late, and your destruction is made sure; yea, for ye have sought all the days of your lives for that which ye could not obtain; and ye have sought for happiness in doing iniquity, which thing is contrary to the nature of that righteousness which is in our great and Eternal Head. (Hel. 13: 38)

2 Ne. 2:21 After the final judgment, mercy and repentance is not operable for the deeds done in the flesh. “The days of the children of men were prolonged…that they might repent while in the flesh”

William Clayton Report WOJS pg. 359-361

The contention in heaven was Jesus said there were certain man would not be saved the devil said he could save them. he rebelled against God and was thrust down.

Spencer W. Kimball taught "[There is no] progression between kingdoms. After a person has been assigned to his place in the kingdom, either in the telestial, the terrestrial, or the celestial, or to his exaltation, he will never advance from his assigned glory to another glory. That is eternal! That is why we must make our decisions early in life and why it is imperative that such decisions be right." (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.50)

In the final judgment, all the earth children of the Lord will be assigned places in one or the

other of the three grand divisions or degrees of salvation, known to us from modern revelation as

the three glories. Each assignment will depend upon the use the candidate has made of the

opportunities placed before him on earth and elsewhere. "For they shall be judged according to

their works" (D. & C. 76: 111). By his own acts each person has shown his fitness to participate

in the activities of this or that glory. It would be useless to place him higher than his capabilities

would permit, and unfair to place him lower. If placed too high, he would not be competent or

happy there, nor could he be content if placed too low. The degree of salvation of necessity

corresponds, under the merciful justice of the Lord, with the demonstrated worthiness, capacity,

and capability of each individual. The final judgment is individual.

Within each glory, however, there may be advancement. The law of progress may be utilized by

every intelligence in the universe. Those who inherit the telestial, terrestrial, or celestial glories

may progress, and progress eternally. But, let it ever be remembered that the power to progress is

greatest in the celestial glory, and is decreasingly smaller in the lower glories. There can be no

talk, therefore, of those in the lower places overtaking those in the higher, any more than an

automobile traveling at the rate of twenty-five miles an hour can overtake one moving at the rate

of fifty miles an hour.

They who inherit the celestial glory will dwell in the presence of the Father and the Son. They

are kings and priests. From that glory issues the power of God, known to us as the Priesthood of

the Lord. In that glory certain conditions of joy belong which are absent in the other glories.

They who have inherited the lesser glories will receive a salvation so glorious as to be beyond

the understanding of man -- that has been revealed to us -- but, "where God and Christ dwell they

can not come worlds without end" (D. & C. 76: 112). (John A. Widstoe, Evidences and

Reconciliations, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1960, p. 204.)

President Harold B. Lee, "There is no truth more plainly taught in the Gospel than that our condition in the next world will depend upon the kind of lives we live here" (Decisions for Successful Living, p.164).

We do not believe in deathbed repentance, or the second chance theory, why would we believe this?

Does that also mean that the 1/3 of the spirits who were cast out will also receive the chance to get bodies and make it to the Celestial kingdom?

Deliverance from hell is not admittance to heaven” (James E. Talmage, The Vitality of Mormonism, 255–56).

Edited March 1, 2011 by livy111us

[thebee62]

I appreciate this answer. It is thoroughly and expertly researched. I hope you don't mind that I print it for my own references. Thank you. It does NOT however comfort me in cases where family members have made bad choices.

Edited March 1, 2011 by thebee62
add something

[Rhi_Bran_y_Hud]

It just seems a little strange to me that this life is the ONLY time we have for spiritual advancement. What of those who will be given opportunities after this life? Is it possible that could extend into the kingdoms?

And yes, this is just speculation.

Why are you concerned with spiritual advancement and not knowing Christ? The two are not the same thing. I know that if I seek the first, it is to detriment of the other. If I seek Christ Himself, as an end in Himself (not unlike seeking to better know/love my wife), then the first thing follows quite naturally. Otherwise, it is only advancement, and it is empty.

Why would you want, or expect there to be a second chance in the afterlife? Is God's grace insufficient to accomplish His work in us with one lifetime? Since He will eventually change believers "in a moment, in the blink of an eye," he doesn't really need any amount of time, though he takes it nontheless. So if now is all we have to prepare for eternity, then suddenly everything we do is more important, precious, and meaningful. Doesn't even Alma in the BoM say that today is all that we have, that we can't wait until nightfall?

Are you planning on goofing off for now, and then working on your spiritual advancement in the afterlife when you can go after it with a resurrected, sinless body? I don't think you are. Instead, are you more concerned that you might fail at some point in this life, and fall short of Celestial glory? If you have read the Letter to the Romans up to chapter 7 then you will know it is guarranteed that you, like me and the rest of us, will fail repeatedly, and fall infinitely short.

But if you read Romans 8 and following, you might find that what you call Celestial glory (being with God the Father and Christ forever) is not earned by advancememnt, but it is given only by grace, guarranteed by blood, secured by the Spirit and recieved by faith in Him, taking Him at His word that he has and will save us. How else would a Father relate to His children? Not through advancment, I think.

[rameumptom]

I appreciate this answer. It is thoroughly and expertly researched. I hope you don't mind that I print it for my own references. Thank you. It does NOT however comfort me in cases where family members have made bad choices.

The thing is, we do not know everything regarding the background or intent of our family or friends when they make bad decisions. There is a reason why God is the Judge, and not us. He knows all the desires of the heart, all the struggles and heartaches, all of the weaknesses of the flesh, etc.

It may be that many of our family members will rise above their choices in the Spirit World. Of note are a few talks given recently by President Faust, President Packer and a few other GAs stating that if parents teach their children, keep the commandments, and do their best, they will not lose their children in the long run. How that works exactly, we do not know. But the promise is there.

[bytor2112]

The thing is, we do not know everything regarding the background or intent of our family or friends when they make bad decisions. There is a reason why God is the Judge, and not us. He knows all the desires of the heart, all the struggles and heartaches, all of the weaknesses of the flesh, etc.

It may be that many of our family members will rise above their choices in the Spirit World. Of note are a few talks given recently by President Faust, President Packer and a few other GAs stating that if parents teach their children, keep the commandments, and do their best, they will not lose their children in the long run. How that works exactly, we do not know. But the promise is there.

I've noticed that past Prophets and Apostles like Spencer Kimball and Bruce McConkie seemed to want to show the dire consequences of not living correctly in THIS life. McConkie was opposed to organic evolution....yet I think it was because he was opposed to any form of secularism finding it's way into the church and leading members astray. Books like The Miracle of Forgivness are pretty frightening until the last couple of chapters. It seems that GA's today are more focused on the Mercy aspect of things and that there is hope for the repentent sinner (I know McConkie and Kimball knew and believed this as well).I prefer books like Believing Christ or The Infinite Atone by TAd Callister or The Continuous Atonement by Brad Wilcox, but each had and haver there place in there time. It just seems the mesage has been changed somewhat. Perhaps the free love 60's and other counter cultures that began to appear during those days required a no non sense approach to the Gospel and issues like organic evolution.

My personal feeling is that I am very happy that God is going to judge me and that Christ is going to fight for me. Two beings of perfect love....I think I will end up where I truly desire to be.

Edited March 1, 2011 by bytor2112

[AGStacker]

Wow, there are a lot of incorrect beliefs here. THIS life is the time. When you are judged you will also be given your reward. There is no advancement from one kingdom to another. Those who didn't have the chance to accept the gospel in this life will in the life to come. Do you remember David? The Lord said he wouldn't leave his soul in Hell but he will suffer for the duration of the Millennium and no doubt is suffering now. After his suffering is through he will inherit the Telestial Kingdom. I believe many people, even Mormons, do not understand salvation. 99.9% of people will receive salvation while the rest will be cast off with Satan. These characters include at least Cain and possibly Judas but I highly doubt it. The Telesital world is far better than ours currently but nothing compared to the glory of our Heavenly Father and is home.

In fact, to be safe, yesterday was the day to prepare

[hyohko]

I'm curious as to why we Latter-day Saints continue to proclaim that the two lesser kingdoms are actually Salvation.

Whoa, you say - that's a bit extreme, eh?

Well. it depends on what kind of salvation we discuss. Eternity in the Telestial Kingdom means that, even if we progress within, we would eventually hit the limit of progression. We would stop moving upward. If I remember my Sunday School classes correctly, the cessation of progression is called Damnation. Furthermore, those in the Telestial Kingdom never receive the ministrations of God the Father or Christ - they are forever cut off from Their presence. Isn't this called the Second Death? Perhaps not completely, as the Holy Ghost and Angelic Messengers might still visit, but that makes the Telestial Kingdom merely a replica of this world as it now is, except people don't sin any more. And yet they will all have seen God's face at the Final Judgement, they will know that He exists, will have (if only briefly) felt his complete love, and then be severed forever.

Is that not a form of Hell?

[slamjet]

I'm curious as to why we Latter-day Saints continue to proclaim that the two lesser kingdoms are actually Salvation.

You need to separate salvation from exaltation.

Both of these are from the April 2008 General Conference, Salvation and Exaltation by Russel M. Nelson

Salvation:

To be saved—or to gain salvation—means to be saved from physical and spiritual death. Because of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected and saved from physical death. People may also be saved from individual spiritual death through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, by their faith in Him, by living in obedience to the laws and ordinances of His gospel, and by serving Him.

Exaltation:

To be exalted—or to gain exaltation—refers to the highest state of happiness and glory in the celestial realm. These blessings can come to us after we leave this frail and mortal existence. The time to prepare for our eventual salvation and exaltation is now.

So we are all saved and will gain salvation, thus all three degrees of glory are salvation, but only a few will gain entry into the Celestial Kingdom, or exaltation.

[thebee62]

Hyohko... You certainly have given me food for thought. I think you are correct. Considering that our goal is to return to our Father in Heaven, it would certainly be a form of Hell for me.

[hyohko]

Exaltation is a subset of Salvation - but more specifically, Celestial Salvation is the condition of being saved from the Second Death, i.e. being cut off from God's Physical Presence for all eternity. Exaltation is a further subset of Celestial Salvation, in that those partaking of such become as God is.

According to the Doctrine of No Inter-Kindgom Progression, all those not saved in the Celestial Kingdom are cut off from God's Physical Presence for all Eternity, and thus suffer the Second Death. In part, they are saved, and in part, they are Damned.

I must confess that this does not give me hope, but fear. Fear that I might kick myself for eternity in a nice and well-kept Terrestrial nursing home, where no one ever comes to visit.

[slamjet]

Then you believe in a God of vengeance and punishment, not mercy and compassion.

I don't have the references, but I believe that whatever kingdom we inherit will be the one we are most comfortable in and will not be eternally "kicking ourselves" but content. Anything else just doesn't square up with the God I've discovered and know.

[hyohko]

First, in response to the "kicking one's self" - knowing who I am, my personality, my tendency to blame myself for things - I would indeed be the kind of person who would never fully be happy knowing what I could have achieved but did not. I don't know about you, but for me it would be Hell.

Indeed, it is the Justice vs. Mercy argument that makes understanding this all the more difficult.

This conception of the Lower Kingdoms as a separation from God is indeed a punishment of sorts. Then it is a valid question that some have posed, whether punishment is Eternal as in Never-Ending, or Eternal as defined in D&C 19. For the Second Death is a punishment - separation from God. And I think it is a valid interpretation to say that the lower kingdoms are forms of punishment, as those living therein are cut off from the presence of God.

Comfortable? As I mentioned before, a nursing home can be pleasant, pretty, well-attended-to, and largely (or perhaps completely, in an ideal world) conflict free. Yet those who live there are virtually prisoners, locked away in the nicest of minimum-security prisons, where their family visit only every once in a while. This is not comfort. IF PERMANENT, it is a place for souls to go and wither to nothingness. Having learned all that there is to learn in those kingdoms, having progressed to their maximum potential, they are completely useless, completely idle, ceasing to have any meaningful impact on themselves or the universe. This may take a few trillion years, but to an immortal soul, that might as well be the first day of existence.

This is why I take comfort (not an excuse to be idle) from the concept that God just might always give Man the opportunity to repent via an INFINITE Atonement. If the Atonement ever had an expiration date, it ceased to be INFINITE. While the good posters have quoted many things (especially from McConkie) stating the permanence of our decisions here, D&C 19 gives me the hope that God allows us far more room for Mercy than He first lets on.

There is a difference between Truth (all things that are) and truth (things God teaches us that will be for our good). I believe that, if post-mortal infinite progression is indeed possible for every soul, that it is wisdom in God to tell Men of the fate of the unrepentant soul here and now, so that he or she is motivated to repent in this life, where it will have the most effect. Alma and Amulek speak of the night of Darkness wherein there can be no labor performed, but is it not possible that after the (long and most miserable) night, the sun just might rise again?

Maybe it will be to my condemnation to believe such (hopefully not), but I hope that God has mercy on me, that he gives me the chance to fix my life both now and in the worlds to come. Heaven knows that I won't be perfect when I die, and I don't believe that - if I were to be celestialized - God would simply erase parts of my soul before I have a chance to learn true charity through my own experience. A man's soul can't be forced to be perfect, he has to choose it. I just want God to give me the time I need to make all of the choices He would have me make.

And for the world's sake, I hope he gives everyone else that chance too.

"When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them"

--Joseph Smith

I do not know everything. I do not know if what I have hoped for is reality. Someday I will know (long after this life, I suppose), but I want to be ready to meet God when that day finally comes.

Edited March 2, 2011 by hyohko

[AGStacker]

I'm curious as to why we Latter-day Saints continue to proclaim that the two lesser kingdoms are actually Salvation.

Whoa, you say - that's a bit extreme, eh?

Well. it depends on what kind of salvation we discuss. Eternity in the Telestial Kingdom means that, even if we progress within, we would eventually hit the limit of progression. We would stop moving upward. If I remember my Sunday School classes correctly, the cessation of progression is called Damnation. Furthermore, those in the Telestial Kingdom never receive the ministrations of God the Father or Christ - they are forever cut off from Their presence. Isn't this called the Second Death? Perhaps not completely, as the Holy Ghost and Angelic Messengers might still visit, but that makes the Telestial Kingdom merely a replica of this world as it now is, except people don't sin any more. And yet they will all have seen God's face at the Final Judgement, they will know that He exists, will have (if only briefly) felt his complete love, and then be severed forever.

Is that not a form of Hell?

No, according to the prophets and apostles salvation is any of the kingdoms because we know that those who inherit the Telestial kingdom suffer and PAY for their sins during the Millennium. Therefore they have met the conditions of justice and will have salvation. It will not be with God but they will attain a portion of glory.

[hyohko]

No, according to the prophets and apostles salvation is any of the kingdoms because we know that those who inherit the Telestial kingdom suffer and PAY for their sins during the Millennium. Therefore they have met the conditions of justice and will have salvation. It will not be with God but they will attain a portion of glory.

Let me ask you this question - are those who inherit the lower kingdoms still suffering the Second Death? Are they, in part, forever paying for their sins because they have been cut off from the presence of God?

Is not the price of all sin an Eternal separation from God? How then have they been saved FROM their sins?

I would argue that they have not been saved from their sins, but continue to suffer the punishment, in part because no one can ever truly save themselves.

Consider an analogy: In the United States, a man who commits a felony and is convicted may pay for his crime through prison time and fines. Once his debt is paid to society, he is free to continue his life. However, for the rest of his life, he is labeled an ex-convict, a felon, and is restricted from a multitude of privileges and rights. He cannot vote, he cannot legally possess firearms (at least in some states), and he can never escape the effects of his crimes. He will be the subject of suspicion forever. Assuming, for the sake of argument, that he never appeals his conviction, the only way to escape this is through the Executive Pardon, an act that erases all existence of the crime, as if it never happened.

Those in the lower kingdoms who pay for their own sins are like felons who did their time in prison. They will always be sinners, because they never received the Divine Forgiveness of Christ but earned their own way out. Justice has been satisfied, but they are still unclean - they still bear the marks of sin. God, who cannot tolerate the presence of the unclean, has to shut them out of His presence forever.

As such, the recepients of these kingdoms receive their glories (not the salvation of their resurrection - that is Christ's) by their own merits. They are square with the law of God, but they are still sinners - like the convict who has paid his debts. Is this a salvation from sin?

Perhaps only in part.

PS - It is nastily difficult to express one's self on the internet...I am trying to write this clearly, but it ain't easy.

Edited March 2, 2011 by hyohko

[AGStacker]

Let me ask you this question - are those who inherit the lower kingdoms still suffering the Second Death? Are they, in part, forever paying for their sins because they have been cut off from the presence of God?

Is not the price of all sin an Eternal separation from God? How then have they been saved FROM their sins?

I would argue that they have not been saved from their sins, but continue to suffer the punishment, in part because no one can ever truly save themselves.

Consider an analogy: In the United States, a man who commits a felony and is convicted may pay for his crime through prison time and fines. Once his debt is paid to society, he is free to continue his life. However, for the rest of his life, he is labeled an ex-convict, a felon, and is restricted from a multitude of privileges and rights. He cannot vote, he cannot legally possess firearms (at least in some states), and he can never escape the effects of his crimes. He will be the subject of suspicion forever. Assuming, for the sake of argument, that he never appeals his conviction, the only way to escape this is through the Executive Pardon, an act that erases all existence of the crime, as if it never happened.

Those in the lower kingdoms who pay for their own sins are like felons who did their time in prison. They will always be sinners, because they never received the Divine Forgiveness of Christ but earned their own way out. Justice has been satisfied, but they are still unclean - they still bear the marks of sin. God, who cannot tolerate the presence of the unclean, has to shut them out of His presence forever.

As such, the recepients of these kingdoms receive their glories (not the salvation of their resurrection - that is Christ's) by their own merits. They are square with the law of God, but they are still sinners - like the convict who has paid his debts. Is this a salvation from sin?

Perhaps only in part.

They are still saved from their sins. This is salvation.

[hyohko]

I concede to a proof by assertion and close my comments for now.

[HiJolly]

Then it is a valid question that some have posed, whether punishment is Eternal as in Never-Ending, or Eternal as defined in D&C 19.

That scripture saved me. I had read it a million times, and then BOOM! Some things really, really made sense in a beautiful, meaningful new way.

Granted, it's kind of a catch-22 of scripture, but nevertheless it is a key for those who are 'ready' for it.

"more express" --

HiJolly

[rameumptom]

Wow, there are a lot of incorrect beliefs here. THIS life is the time. When you are judged you will also be given your reward. There is no advancement from one kingdom to another. Those who didn't have the chance to accept the gospel in this life will in the life to come. Do you remember David? The Lord said he wouldn't leave his soul in Hell but he will suffer for the duration of the Millennium and no doubt is suffering now. After his suffering is through he will inherit the Telestial Kingdom. I believe many people, even Mormons, do not understand salvation. 99.9% of people will receive salvation while the rest will be cast off with Satan. These characters include at least Cain and possibly Judas but I highly doubt it. The Telesital world is far better than ours currently but nothing compared to the glory of our Heavenly Father and is home.

In fact, to be safe, yesterday was the day to prepare

Your concepts are mostly conjecture. Yes, much of it based upon the beliefs of various apostles, but still conjecture.

There is no absolute doctrine that states there is no progression between kingdoms. In fact, some apostles, like James Talmage, thought it may very well be possible. We just do not know.

Second, The Lord himself explained that he sometimes uses terminology to throw off people. D&C 19 explains that Endless Torment is God's Torment, for example. It allows those who are less spiritual to fear enough to be obedient, but those who are in the know can understand that Endless Torment does not last forever.

D&C 138 tells us that even the righteous will be taught gospel principles in the Spirit World, as well as the wicked. So, not only is this life the time to prepare, but so is the Spirit World. We just do not know how God will judge everything. What we do know is it is better to work on the side of caution, rather than take our chances with what will happen in the hereafter.

All we know for certain about David is that he has lost his exaltation. That does not mean he is only going to receive a telestial glory. Rather, it means he will gain at least a telestial glory. Given his repentance, etc., I personally believe he will gain at least the terrestrial kingdom. But then, God will be judge of it.