I Think We Should Talk About Jesus

[Ray]

…because it seems to have been a while since we have devoted a thread just to Him.

And since I am the one who is suggesting this Topic, I’ll say a few opening words:

He was and is an eternal being, who could always and still can be seen.

Jesus Christ, Antemortal Existence of,

Jesus Christ, Appearances, Antemortal,

Jesus Christ, Appearances, Postmortal

He was born and He died on this Earth, and He rose and He returned to heaven.

Jesus Christ, Birth of,

Jesus Christ, Betrayal of,

Jesus Christ, Crucifixion of,

Jesus Christ, Death of,

Jesus Christ, Resurrection,

Jesus Christ, Ascension of

He was the first son of our Father in heaven, and His only begotten son on this Earth.

Jesus Christ, Firstborn,

Jesus Christ, Only Begotten Son,

Jesus Christ, Divine Sonship,

Jesus Christ, Relationships with the Father

He was also the first son of a woman named Mary, a descendant of Adam through David.

Jesus Christ, Davidic Descent of,

Jesus Christ, Family of,

Jesus Christ, Son of Man

He created this Earth and all things on this Earth under the direction of our Father in heaven.

God, Creator,

Jesus Christ, Creator

He was also God while living in heaven, and He was still God while living on Earth.

Jesus Christ, Glory of,

Jesus Christ, Condescension of,

Man has known or at least talked about Him for, oh, let’s see, quite a while now.

Jesus Christ, Foreordained,

Jesus Christ, Prophecies about,

Jesus Christ, Types of, in Anticipation,

Jesus Christ, Types of, in Memory

He was known by the name of Jehovah before He was given the name of Jesus.

Godhead,

God the Father – Jehovah,

Jesus Christ – Jehovah

He came to this Earth to do the will of our God, the one we refer to as our Father in heaven.

Jesus Christ, Lamb of God,

Jesus Christ, Mission of

He is still helping Him do His work today, as He had always done before.

Jesus Christ, Advocate,

Jesus Christ, Mediator,

Jesus Christ, Messenger of the Covenant

He was tempted on Earth by everything we experience, and yet He always chose to do what was right.

Jesus Christ, Temptation of,

Jesus Christ, Trials of,

Jesus Christ, Baptism of,

Jesus Christ, Exemplar,

Jesus Christ, Rock

We can also overcome every temptation we experience, by relying on Him and His help.

Jesus Christ, Good Shepherd,

Jesus Christ, Head of the Church,

Jesus Christ, Light of the World,

Jesus Christ, Second Comforter,

Jesus Christ, Spirit of

He can forgive us for all our sins and make us “one” with our Father in heaven.

Jesus Christ, Atonement through,

Jesus Christ, Power of

He is the only one who can do that, and He has already done what was necessary.

Jesus Christ, Messiah,

Jesus Christ, Redeemer,

Jesus Christ, Savior

He is coming back to this Earth to reign as our Lord and our King upon this Earth.

Jesus Christ, Second Coming,

Jesus Christ, Lord,

Jesus Christ, King,

Jesus Christ, Millennial Reign

He will judge everyone who has ever lived here, and His authority will go on forever.

Jesus Christ, Judge,

Jesus Christ, Authority of

And sometimes, He will authorize some of us help Him, when we also choose to do what is right.

Jesus Christ, Taking the Name of,

Jesus Christ, Teaching Mode of

And btw, I have only touched on some highlights, and there is still a lot more to be said.

Jesus Christ, Topical Guide,

Bread Of Life,

Sacrament

[prisonchaplain]

…because it seems to have been a while since we have devoted a thread just to Him.

Beautiful idea, and nice work, Ray! Here's my favorite line about Jesus:

Jesus is Creator of Heaven and Earth, lover of my soul!

I love the paradox between the transcedence and the imminence of my Lord.

[Ray]

Yes, and I believe it is worth noting that He loves our soul even though He didn't create our soul... unless we were born again through Him.

Or in other words, until or unless we are born again through Him, He is not our Father (although we are still a child of our Eternal Father in heaven and all of our parents who are and were upon this Earth), and although He isn't our Father, (unless or until...), He still loves us and wants us to come unto Him and our Eternal Father who lives in heaven.

Or in other words, I think it is worth noting that there is a distinction between Him and our Eternal Father in heaven, and I think it helps to realize that distinction while knowing that He still loves us.

[Palerider]

After meeting my Mission President for the first time he asked me what he asked all Missionaries....this took place while in a interview with him....he asked...can you share with me your testimony of Jesus Christ....my reply was at that time.....I am not sure what you mean....he taught me about the Savior that day and shared with me his Testimony of the Savior. He also told me while here over the next 2 years I would learn much much more about Christ and that my testimony would grow and I would have many opportunities to share it with others....WOW...he was right....We should all make Jesus Christ the center of our homes and use his life and teachings as an example to us, when teaching our children and everything we do.

[Traveler]

I do not think words demonstrate anyone's understanding of Christ. I would think if you want to know what someone understand of Christ - observe them when they have nothing pressing and do not know that anyone is watching.

The Traveler

[Ray]

We should all make Jesus Christ the center of our homes and use his life and teachings as an example to us, when teaching our children and everything we do.

I agree with that 100%, and yet there are people who do not agree. And when I see or hear from someone like that, I then share what I know and believe... while allowing them to believe as they wish to believe, or be as they choose to be.

And btw, before this converstation begins to stray from the main topic, about Him, I will try to shift the focus back to Him by stating that I personally know and believe Jesus Christ should be at the center of MY home and MY life, because of what He means to me.

I do not think words demonstrate anyone's understanding of Christ. I would think if you want to know what someone understand of Christ - observe them when they have nothing pressing and do not know that anyone is watching.

The Traveler

That would tell you about them, if not Him.

Or in other words, Traveler, it is totally possible for someone to know the truth about Jesus Christ even though they do not "live" what they "teach".

And btw, people, let's try to stay on track here, okay?

This thread is not about us, but about Him.

[Dr T]

Yes, and I believe it is worth noting that He loves our soul even though He didn't create our soul... unless we were born again through Him.

You are saying that Jesus didn't create our soul. The Bible talks about him creating all things. Here are some examples: Col 1:16 & 17, John 1:3, Ps 33:6, Eph 3:9, Rev. 4:11.

Thoughts?

[Ray]

We are not things.

And Yes, while Jesus did create the Earth, from the dust (or elements) of which our bodies were made, our Lord Jesus did not and does not create us, unless we are born again through Him.

Or in other words, we are literally the children of our Father in heaven, because our spirits were created by Him. And that also goes for Adam and Eve, since their spirits were also created by Him (our Father in Heaven).

And then, through the "Fall" of Adam and Eve, when their bodies became mortal, we were then created through them (Adam and Eve), from whom all of our mortal bodies are made as tabernacles for our spirits.

And then, through the "Atonement" of Jesus Christ, we were or at least can be born again through Jesus Christ, as He prepares us to be able to live with God, in our bodies which will continue to house our spirits.

Or in other words, not counting our step-fathers and all of our grandfathers and great grandfathers and great, great grandfathers, etc. we all have 3 fathers, known as:

1) our Father in heaven, who created our spirits,

2) our Father on Earth, who created our mortal bodies, and

3) our other Father either in heaven or on Earth, which is ultimately either Jesus or Satan.

And btw, Father 3 is determined by our own choices, as we are prompted by both good and evil.

[Dr T]

We are not things.

Col 1:16-17 says For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Are you saying that this list are not things? Humans don't fit into this criteria?

... we are literally the children of our Father in heaven, because our spirits were created by Him.

Are you saying Jesus was literally the physical offspring of God the Father? There was a sexual union of Heavenly Father and Mary?

Thanks

[Christos]

Jesus is God.

Lord of Lords and King of Kings.

The Only begotton Son.

100% divine

100% human

Jesus is God among us, God with and God for us.

Jesus is part of the trinity, equal with the Holy Spirit and the Father.

Jesus is a great teacher, servant and master. A model of creation.

Jesus is the perfect and Only sacrafice.

Jesus is the reason and founder of the one holy Catholic and Apostolic church. (when I say Catholic I refer to universal...not the Roman church which shares the name).

Jesus is the Son of the Ever Virgin Theotokos Mary, a Bride without Bridegroom.

[englandsson]

Jesus is God.

Jesus is Lord.

Jesus is equal with the Father as they are one substance.

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

We are not things.

Col 1:16-17 says For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Are you saying that this list are not things? Humans don't fit into this criteria?

No, I agree that that list is a list of “things”, but Yes, I am saying that “humans” don’t fit into that criteria.

Or in other words, “humans” are not “things”, and Paul wasn’t referring to “us”.

As I said before, we are not the children of Jesus, unless we are born again through Him, but we are and always will be the children of our literal Father in heaven.

Or in other words, Jesus and the person we refer to as our Father in heaven are not the same person, and we are not things or among the things that were created by our Father through Jesus… except that the elements of this Earth were actually created by Jesus.

And if that is still not clear enough for you, and I somehow know it won’t be, then I suggest that you take some more time to think about what Paul was actually saying while asking our Father in heaven to help you understand and assure you about what Paul actually saying.

And to help you a bit with that idea, I think you would and should be asking yourself some questions something like this:

What are thrones, and dominions, and principalities, and powers. Or in other words, are they people? Or are they actually some of the “things” that are created and established by people?

And btw, that scripture also reminds me of another one by Paul, where he stated that our fight is not against flesh and blood, but against other “things” that are created and established by people.

Or in other words, our “culture” and worldly “establishments” are in our way to discovering truth, and sometimes we have to fight or wrestle against ideas which are not conducive to God.

Are you saying Jesus was literally the physical offspring of God the Father?

Yes, that is what I am saying. Jesus was and is literally the only “begotten” son of God.

There was a sexual union of Heavenly Father and Mary?

We aren’t told that anywhere in the scriptures, and I don’t have that knowledge from God, and I also have a very hard time believing they actually had “sex” together.

Or in other words, if there was, we haven’t been told about it, and personally, I think it was by something more like “invetro fertilization”, than by an actual “union”… although we do know He has a body, so it could have been literally possible.

And btw, as a general rule, please also ask God the questions you have asked me, and do not rely on me, because the only way I can know the truth is by receiving assurances from Him.

[Dr T]

Hello Ray,

Thank you for your thoughts on this Ray. Again, we are having language (diction) difficulties. I understand that you are doing the best to explain to me you’re understanding of spiritual things and how you interpret scripture. Thank you. I also see that you do not think that we are “things.”

Here is the definition of “Thing” from Merriam-Webster online:

1 a : a matter of concern : AFFAIR <many things to do> b plural : state of affairs in general or within a specified or implied sphere <things are improving> c : a particular state of affairs : SITUATION <look at this thing another way> d : EVENT, CIRCUMSTANCE <that shooting was a terrible thing>

2 a : DEED, ACT, ACCOMPLISHMENT <do great things> b : a product of work or activity <likes to build things> c : the aim of effort or activity <the thing is to get well>

3 a : a separate and distinct individual quality, fact, idea, or usually entity b : the concrete entity as distinguished from its appearances c : a spatial entity d : an inanimate object distinguished from a living being

4 a plural : POSSESSIONS, EFFECTS <pack your things> b : whatever may be possessed or owned or be the object of a right c : an article of clothing <not a thing to wear> d plural : equipment or utensils especially for a particular purpose <bring the tea things>

5 : an object or entity not precisely designated or capable of being designated <use this thing>

6 a : DETAIL, POINT <checks every little thing> b : a material or substance of a specified kind <avoid fatty things>

7 a : a spoken or written observation or point b : IDEA, NOTION <says the first thing he thinks of> c : a piece of news or information <couldn't get a thing out of him>

8 : INDIVIDUAL <not a living thing in sight>

9 : the proper or fashionable way of behaving, talking, or dressing -- used with the

10 a : a mild obsession or phobia <has a thing about driving>; also : the object of such an obsession or phobia b : something (as an activity) that makes a strong appeal to the individual : FORTE, SPECIALTY <letting students do their own thing -- Newsweek> <I think travelling is very much a novelist's thing -- Philip Larkin>

Given that the common use for “thing” includes individuals, etc, I keep coming back to verses like John 1:3 (which is as clear as can be):

”All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.." KJV.

No disrespect intended, if you change meanings of common words I can see how you get side tracked from the logical conclusion.

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Ray]

Heh, okay fine. I will now refer to you as an it or that thing over there, while expecting you to like what I'm saying. :)

And btw, please don't refer to me or anyone else as a "thing", because most other people won't like that... and 9 of those 10 definitions don't either.

[Dr T]

OK :)

So, does that mean that you understand that humans are created "things" (regardless of whether you like to be called a thing or not)?

[Ray]

No, and as I told you, that isn't what Paul actually meant.

Heh, but you can go ahead and believe what you want. :)

And now, to try to get this thread back on topic:

Jesus did not create us, unless we were born again through Him.

OR

Jesus did and does create us, as we are born again through Him.

And btw, in the future, please talk about Jesus while trying not to talk about "us".

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Col 1:16-17 says For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Are you saying that this list are not things? Humans don't fit into this criteria?

I'd like to add something to this discussion Dr. T. LDS believe that every mortal being is made up of three parts:

(1) Intelligence (a word used in our Doctrine & Covenants)

(2) Spirit body (Joseph Smith taught that spirits are made of matter that a mortal must be quickened to see or perceive; LDS believe that our spirit body is like our physical body in shape/form/anatomy and is made of a purer matter than our physical bodies)

(3) Physical body (self-explanitory)

Our Doctrine and Covenants (D&C) teaches us that intelligence was not created or made. We believe the "us" that makes us "us," the light inside that animates our spirit and hence physical bodies has always existed. This gets back to our discussion of Zeno, paradoxes and eternity (which I enjoyed). It's hard to comprehend that something has always existed without being made, though I trust in the next life we'll be able to. :) So to be sure, LDS don't believe God created everything, because we believe God doesn't create matter (no ex nihilo), and didn't create the "intelligences" or core personalities that are clothed in our spirit and physical bodies.

Now, we believe that God the Father created our spirit bodies for us. We aren't specifically told how, but when was there ever a father without a mother? I don't teach the specifics because that'd be irresponsible and uninformed. I simply don't know definitively whether God the Father created our spirit bodies in a process similar to how an earthly couple creates a physical body for their child, or not. That is, LDS don't have an official teaching on how our spirit bodies were made, only that God is the literal Father of our spirits, as here:

"Furthermore we have had father of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?" (Hebrews 12:9)

Now LDS DO believe that Jesus created all other things, under the direction of the Father. For instance, the world, animal life, plant life, etc... but we believe he created all things from pre-existing matter. In other words, he created by organizing (anyone else play with Lego pieces when they were kids? )

So we believe that Jesus is referred to as father in the scriptures for 3 reasons:

(1)He created the heavens and earth; hence he is the Father creation.

(2)He makes possible our rebirth from sin and death; hence he is the Father of our salvation (much like George Washington is considered by some to be the father of America).

(3)He has authority to speak and act for God the Father; hence he is referred to as the Father due to divine investiture (much like prophets speaking for the Lord in the first person, i.e. "Thus saith the Lord, I have seen your abominations...").

Are you saying Jesus was literally the physical offspring of God the Father? There was a sexual union of Heavenly Father and Mary?

As far as your second comment, about God literally fathering Jesus's physical body. There is no official LDS teaching about whether God had physical intercourse with Mary. There are plenty of LDS who teach what they think happened, but there is no official LDS teaching on the matter.

What I believe is that Jesus had 46 chromosomes like you and me. However, unlike you and me, 23 were from a mortal (Mary) and 23 were from God. I believe that Christ's y chromosome was a capital Y chromosome. :) This is why we call Jesus the Only Begotten Son of God, meaning God's only mortal child was Jesus, while all of us are God's spirit children.

This whole issue gets muddied up pretty quickly with mixed interpretations of scripture, as I've seen between you and Ray. Of course you both have good points in your own ways. Unfortunately neither of you will convince the other because Ray is coming from additional scriptural knowledge found in the LDS canon, and you do not accept that additional scriptural knowledge (Book of Mormon, D&C, Pearl of Great Price).

I myself am not so much trying to convince you that I'm right, as much as try to give you an accurate view of LDS doctrine so you may ponder and accept/reject the doctrines yourself. If you have any questions about what I've said, I'd be happy to clarify in any way I can. Thanks Dr. T

[prisonchaplain]

No, I agree that that list is a list of “things”, but Yes, I am saying that “humans” don’t fit into that criteria.

Or in other words, “humans” are not “things”, and Paul wasn’t referring to “us”.

Really, I'm stunned. The passage is so intent on showing us Christ the Creator, and your answer is that Jesus created stuff, but not souls/spirits?

Let's revisit the passage:

Colossians 1:16,17

Note that the first translation is from the Jehovah's Witnesses--a group that totally denies the deity of Christ, and thus would seek to minimize his supernatural powers.

NWT: because by means of him all [other] things were made to exist,

The Watchtower society knew that they had a problem with this verse, and so put in the explanatory [other].

NIV: For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

NASB: For by Him all things were created, {both} in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

KJV: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

A simple reading of this passage is that Jesus made everything. The JW's dealt with the problem by adding explanatory notes [within the text]. It's an incredibly strained reading to see that and say, "Yeah everyTHING, but not everyONE."

[Ray]

A simple reading of this passage is that Jesus made everything. It's an incredibly strained reading to see that and say, "Yeah everyTHING, but not everyONE."

Heh, as I stated, Jesus did create every "thing" (at least everything that is in "this" universe), but He did not create "us", and we are not a "thing".

I also stated that we have a Father in heaven, and it is He who created our spirits, but our Father in heaven is not Jesus, unless we are born again through Him... when Jesus would then be Father #3, referring to the other Fathers I mentioned.

And btw, you won't change the truth on these issues, no matter how much you keep talking. :)

[Guest ApostleKnight]

A simple reading of this passage is that Jesus made everything. The JW's dealt with the problem by adding explanatory notes [within the text]. It's an incredibly strained reading to see that and say, "Yeah everyTHING, but not everyONE."

If I might make an observation. Each of you: Dr. T, PC, and Ray are arguing WHAT you're saying, but I think the issue is WHY you're saying it.

Dr. T and PC, if I understand correctly, you believe that Jesus created our spirits or "us" as well as every other thing in existence. If so, that is why you interpret the scripture the way you do.

Ray, and I think I understand you, you believe that God fathered our spirits and hence this scripture cannot include "us" as the "things" Jesus created.

Instead of debating what the scripture really means, if might be helpful for y'all to discuss the viewpoints behind your interpretations. Just a thought.

[Ray]

Heh, I have been trying to explain what I'm saying, but if it's unclear you may ask me some questions.

[prisonchaplain]

Dr. T and PC, if I understand correctly, you believe that Jesus created our spirits or "us" as well as every other thing in existence. If so, that is why you interpret the scripture the way you do.

Dr. T. has not divulged what he personally believes. He's only explained how he interprets the passage. And, I would suggest that he "interprets" the passage to say Jesus created all that is, because such a reading is the most obvious understanding.

In my case, yes, I am biased, and read the passage that way, in part, because that is how the Church has understood the passage throughout history. Such an understanding conforms with mainstream Christian teaching, creedal developments, etc.

Ray, and I think I understand you, you believe that God fathered our spirits and hence this scripture cannot include "us" as the "things" Jesus created.

I think you hit on a key point: Ray's doctrinal understand REQUIRES the passage to be read differently.

Instead of debating what the scripture really means, if might be helpful for y'all to discuss the viewpoints behind your interpretations. Just a thought.

I think we know what's behind our interpretations, and what we are discussing is which understanding is the most natural and correct.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

I think we know what's behind our interpretations, and what we are discussing is which understanding is the most natural and correct.

The real question is whether it was translated correctly. lol

And no, I really don't think it's possible (or should I say likely) for everyone to agree on that.

[Ray]

Heh, I love the way you put that. And I couldn't have "tactfully" said it better.

But to be more blunt about it, since that is my preferred style...

... it's either our [LDS] way or some other way, and I know that we [LDS] are right because God has assured me it's true. :)

And btw, the WHY as to WHY I am saying this is because I am wanting to share truths about Jesus, because I am wanting to help other people know Him, because I know the more we know about Him, the more we will love Him and want to become like Him.

...but now I have a new idea, or one which I am only beginning to "see", and that is to truthfully know Jesus, we must come to know Him personally... without relying on either "you" or "me".

... so let's not ask each other more questions, to see what we know or believe about Him, and instead try to learn about Jesus, by learning directly from Him.

And yes, that is possible, and all of us should already know that much. :)

And btw, I am not trying to say it is "wrong" to talk about Jesus, or share what we know about Him, but I do believe we should be talking less about us, and more about knowing Him through Faith.

[Dr T]

Hello AK,

Again, I appreciate your contribution to my limited knowledge base. We know that discussion of religious topics often lead to intense emotional reactions by the participants. Unfortunately the emotional upheaval brought about during discourse turn into verbal battles of disrespectful volleys that make those involved even more upset. AK, your ability to lay out your beliefs, in a tactful and civil way, without snide comments, putdowns, etc. adds value to this board and helps justify spending time (which I don't have much of) here. Thank you.

“What is behind my interpretation?” you ask. Basically, my interest in finding out about the LDS (and other) religion/beliefs is academic. I hesitate to say that for fear that others will discount my sincerity in finding out about them and their belief system. I truly am a “seeker of truth”- whatever that might be. I have a bias of truth being out there. (cue your X-Files music again). There are sacred writings that claim to be originated from God Himself-like the Bible, so I spent a lot of time there. So, given that the Bible is one of the LDS standards and I’m knowledgeable about it, we can use that as common ground.

I understand that religion is packed with far more reaching/important implications/outcomes than my petty academic entertainment. We are potentially talking about our union with God (if one exists) or separation from Him. I understand we can be getting into spiritual information that hold much greater weight and importance than useless mental exercises. Knowing that, spurs me on to use my brain to it’s fullest in seeking Him out. This is why I think (if God is real and people are making claims to Him) it is important (to the point of life and death) that we use all of our mental faculties to discern what is consistent and what is not with what we know. So, in this endeavor, I will try to compare and square our understanding of Him with what scripture tells us. I also have a bias that an infinite, all powerful, omni-everything being would be consistent and unchanging. I don’t think God can “learn to do it better than He already has.”

I understand that I am only a human and that not all beliefs can be distilled into logical form. We all have to take a leap of faith in all that we chose to believe. My hope is to learn why people believe the way they do. Can they verbalize it? Do they know why they believe it? Do they know why they want to share that belief with others? Etcetera.

Another one of my biases is that God is not contradictory to logic. I don’t feel comfortable saying, “It’s a mystery” and leaving it at that for things that are logical absurd. God making a rock too big for Him to pick up for example is an absurdity and I can’t say, “Well, He can if He wanted to-it’s just a mystery to us… and be satisfied. That is a non-issue to me because of its makeup. Anyway. I have to run back to work. I hope I have more time later.

Dr. T