Unrest in Egypt

[NeuroTypical]

Unrest in Egypt. Mubarak is not going to step down (as of 4:30 MST, anyway). The military was able to move into major cities, because the protestors were welcoming them as a way to help oust Mubarak. Now it looks like they'll be supporting the regime.

Mubarak announced he won't be stepping down just a little while ago. In other words, the middle of the night, to give the military time to dig in for when the protestors wake up in the morning and realize they're failing.

Things could get very bloody in the next half a day.

Please remember to pray for the folks in Egypt tonight.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

The Egyptian regime might be an ally of the US, but clearly they have been an oppressive government. Any government that feels threatened, when its back is against the wall, will act for its own survival. Ours is no exception as seen during the Vietnam protests in the 60's; we too sent troops into the streets. All that nonsense of being a government of the people, by the people, and for the people flies right out the window when people want to take back their government. And now we have a situation where our friendship to the current Egyptian regime is a liability and fuels the most extreme anti-western elements who are now weighing in. Some say they are even taking over the protest and providing structure and purpose for it.

[Just_A_Guy]

Apparently Mubarak has fired his government.

Isn't that kind of like the captain of the Titanic blaming the ship's mice for hitting an iceberg, and throwing them all overboard?

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

The protest has gone world wide with Egyptian citizens protesting everywhere, even here in America. Mubarak is called a president, though he's not. Presidents are elected and cannot pass down their office to their son. Despite heavy handed measures such as shutting down the internet, reports are coming out of people shot in the streets with rubber bullets and also live ammunition. The protesters' demands are very reasonable. They want fair elections and a democratic form of government. And just like the democracy protests in Tiananmen Square, China, the government is responding with lethal force.

What a dark day it is!

[pam]

Apparently Mubarak has fired his government.

Isn't that kind of like the captain of the Titanic blaming the ship's mice for hitting an iceberg, and throwing them all overboard?

A quote from him: "I asked the government to resign today and I will commission a new government to take over tomorrow," Mubarak said shortly after midnight."

Does he not understand he is probably the main target of the protests? He's 82 years old already. What isn't he understanding? Other than his own self importance. Which obviously only he is seeing.

[Wingnut]

Apparently Mubarak has fired his government.

Isn't that kind of like the captain of the Titanic blaming the ship's mice for hitting an iceberg, and throwing them all overboard?

[thread hijack]

I used to have a friend who was severely overweight. He was pretty close to 300 lbs, and not quite 6 feet tall. Sitting with him and another friend once, he commented that he wanted to lose 10-15 pounds. The other friend (knowing the first friend had a good sense of humor) observed, "isn't that a bit like throwing a chair off the Titanic?" We all had a good laugh about it.

[/thread hijack]

[NeuroTypical]

Never mind - nothing to see here. Egypts military and police, Pres. Obama, and the nations of the world have decided to stick with Mubarak. The media is following their lead. Heck, even Charles Krauthammer was on the radio supporting Pres. Obama's decision. It looked like folks took a good hard look at the alternative to Mubarak, and decided the brotherhood of islam was worse.

[pam]

Who was the alternative? I haven't seen anything on this.

[Saldrin]

The Muslim brotherhood i though. An extremist group...

[pam]

This is one of the sad things about events like this. People ruining artifacts from museums.

Looters rip heads off 2 mummies at Egyptian Museum - ksl.com

[volgadon]

Who was the alternative? I haven't seen anything on this.

The alternative? More blood, a more oppressive, harsh regime which will crush the Chrstian Copts and any sort of moderates and liberals, who would probably restrict use of the Suez canal. For as bad as Mubarak is, the Egyptians aren't thinking with their heads, but with their pent up emotions and frustrations, manipulated by radicals. mubarak though is a sly old fox. Even more than power, his life is at stake. Of course he'd play dirty.

[NeuroTypical]

Well, the protestors aren't just upset Egyptians. I suppose the average protestor pawn is, but those pawns are being played by both sides.

The Egyptian police aren't currently patrolling the Rafah border crossing, so a bunch of armed thugs from Gaza come across and work with the Muslim Brotherhood. On the other side, folks loyal to Mubarak are pretending to be in the mob, and are breaking things and setting private property on fire, to give the mob a bad name.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

What is this, now we're blaming the Egyptian protesters? They've been oppressed for over 30 years under this regime. Any regime that gets overthrown will have reverberations that negatively effect some markets, etc, that's not an excuse to keep them in place.

[volgadon]

What is this, now we're blaming the Egyptian protesters? They've been oppressed for over 30 years under this regime. Any regime that gets overthrown will have reverberations that negatively effect some markets, etc, that's not an excuse to keep them in place.

You obviously haven't been there. The comment about "reverberations that negatively effect some markets" is naive to the extreme. If Hosni Mubarak is ousted, he won't be replaced by a democracy. He'll be replaced by the Muslim Brotherhood, or a similar coalition, which is bad news for everyone, not least Egypt's Christians.

Besides, we are talking about riots in the Middle East, which are never pretty. Emotions run high, and people act completely out of control.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

You obviously haven't been there. The comment about "reverberations that negatively effect some markets" is naive to the extreme. If Hosni Mubarak is ousted, he won't be replaced by a democracy. He'll be replaced by the Muslim Brotherhood, or a similar coalition, which is bad news for everyone, not least Egypt's Christians.

Besides, we are talking about riots in the Middle East, which are never pretty. Emotions run high, and people act completely out of control.

To that I would return with a 3 part reposte:

1. Nobody has to have been there to understand the cultural nuances, special interests, and economical and political factors that come into play. On the other side, having been there makes no one an expert either if they fail to understand what they're seeing.

2. You don't know what will replace the regime. Even if it is temporarily replaced by something worse, as happened in the French Revolution, democracy may still prevail. I would remind you that America also replaced British rule with undemocratic and often ruthless government regimes until our Constitutional form of government took full form.

3. Egyptians are not aliens from another planet that they would "act completely out of control" in situations where other people wouldn't. Americans are not calm, rational, reasoned people by comparison, we simply have better mechanisms vouchsafed by our form of government to resolve grievences. If we were as unequipped as the Egyptians to seek redress from our government, our behavior would be no different.

Naive? Not even in the slightest.

[FunkyTown]

To that I would return with a 3 part reposte:

1. Nobody has to have been there to understand the cultural nuances, special interests, and economical and political factors that come into play. On the other side, having been there makes no one an expert either if they fail to understand what they're seeing.

Actually, there is a growing problem in the western world that believes that everyone in the world wants a liberal-democratic regime.

This is complete nonsense.

Currently, there are a few cultures at play:

1) Western culture - Traditionally liberal-democratic. Personal and economic freedoms often seen to trump government. In various places, there are minor themes on whether personal or economic freedoms are more important, but for the most part, people are free to do as they choose.

2) Eastern culture - Strong societal values mean that the individual is often co-opted by the needs of the many. The government represents the needs of the many. Western society often seen as undisciplined, selfish, gluttonous and barbaric even as it is dynamic and powerful.

3) Arabic culture - Note that I didn't say 'Moslem'. Arabic culture is traditionally religious-sectarian, meaning that your family and religion are the most important thing in the world and anyone else's family and religion are wrong.

Not everyone wants what you have, SMDT. Heck - Iran is a Democratically elected government that always gets the religious group elected. That's right. Without election fraud or corruption, the religious majority always gets elected in every election. They have the freedom to choose otherwise. They just don't.

Ask anyone from those areas, SMDT: Not everyone wants to be the US. Some people are filled with horror at the idea that they'd become the next to join your culture.

2. You don't know what will replace the regime. Even if it is temporarily replaced by something worse, as happened in the French Revolution, democracy may still prevail. I would remind you that America also replaced British rule with undemocratic and often ruthless government regimes until our Constitutional form of government took full form.

SMDT - I can point out many revolutions that resulted in brutal regimes that weren't replaced by more democratic institutions in those cultures. Communist China, Iran, North Korea, almost every country in Africa. Egypt tacitly acknowledges Israel's existence. If the President gets overthrown, there will be a radical change. The people might be better off. Israel will almost assuredly be worse off.

3. Egyptians are not aliens from another planet that they would "act completely out of control" in situations where other people wouldn't. Americans are not calm, rational, reasoned people by comparison, we simply have better mechanisms vouchsafed by our form of government to resolve grievences. If we were as unequipped as the Egyptians to seek redress from our government, our behavior would be no different.

True. The Detroit race riots from the 60s. The LA riots. When people get frustrated, they take to the streets.

When this revolution is over, either the President will be gone and a new regime will come in which will desperately need propping up and will probably turn to unorthodox allies or the old regime will be entrenched which will require a brutal crackdown on civil liberties.

Either way, expect Egypt to be a dangerous place for a bit.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

Actually, there is a growing problem in the western world that believes that everyone in the world wants a liberal-democratic regime.

This is complete nonsense.

You're only partly correct. When millions of Iraqis dodge bullets to show up at the polls and vote and then proudly dip their fingers in ink, exposing themselves to further risk, it speaks of a hunger for democracy that words can never justify. While it can't be said that everyone wants democracy, there is a growing trend of moving toward more liberal forms of government. South Korea's communist regime will fall within the next 10 years and I wouldn't be surprised if it happened in the next 5. Reagan, Thatcher, and Pope John Paul II have taught us to look for the invisible cracks that are the harbinger of a toppled regime.

Currently, there are a few cultures at play:

1) Western culture - Traditionally liberal-democratic. Personal and economic freedoms often seen to trump government. In various places, there are minor themes on whether personal or economic freedoms are more important, but for the most part, people are free to do as they choose.

2) Eastern culture - Strong societal values mean that the individual is often co-opted by the needs of the many. The government represents the needs of the many. Western society often seen as undisciplined, selfish, gluttonous and barbaric even as it is dynamic and powerful.

3) Arabic culture - Note that I didn't say 'Moslem'. Arabic culture is traditionally religious-sectarian, meaning that your family and religion are the most important thing in the world and anyone else's family and religion are wrong.

What's missing in your analysis is the seeds of change just under the surface. While you may have become so jaded with democracy that you even exhibit a barely concealed contempt for it, or at least an imperative that it spreads no further, others are crying out for it and are willing to take to the streets and fight, even die, for it. They see what others have and they do not; the prosperity vouchsafed by the free market and the ability to live under a government of the people's choosing, and they are willing to do what it takes to attain it.

Not everyone wants what you have, SMDT. Heck - Iran is a Democratically elected government that always gets the religious group elected. That's right. Without election fraud or corruption, the religious majority always gets elected in every election. They have the freedom to choose otherwise. They just don't.

And of the two of us, who is the one making assumptions, FT? Are all Arab nations the same and is their no outcry against the daily injustices inflicted by theocratic governments? Did you know there is a popular ski resort in Iran? Yes, there is snow in the desert! My point? Assume nothing when it comes to Iran. They are not happy pigs wallowing in the mud of religious oppression.

Ask anyone from those areas, SMDT: Not everyone wants to be the US. Some people are filled with horror at the idea that they'd become the next to join your culture.

Perhaps it bears saying that some of the most devoted haters of Western society are those ensconced in its blessings.

[GeneC]

The fact is that this is a concerted effort by the Muslim Brotherhood to create their form of One World Government. They have been at it since the late twenties and apply the tactics they think applicable to the situation.

This is an excerpt about Egypt and the Muslim Brotherhood from Act for America (Brigitte Gabriel)

For example, Shariah: The Threat to America provides several key insights that must be borne in mind in the current circumstances especially:

“The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in Egypt in 1928. Its express purpose was two-fold: (1) to implement shariah worldwide, and (2) to re-establish the global Islamic State (caliphate).

“Therefore, Al Qaeda and the MB have the same objectives. They differ only in the timing and tactics involved in realizing them.

“The Brotherhood’s creed is: ‘God is our objective; the Koran is our law; the Prophet is our leader; jihad is our way; and death for the sake of Allah is the highest of our aspirations.’”

It is evident from the Creed, and from the Brotherhood’s history (and current activities)…that violence is an inherent part of the MB’s tactics. The MB is the root of the majority of Islamic terrorist groups in the world today.

The Muslim Brotherhood is the ‘vanguard’ or tip-of-the-spear of the current Islamic Movement in the world. While there are other transnational organizations that share the MB’s goals (if not its tactics) – including al Qaeda, which was born out of the Brotherhood – the Ikhwan is by far the strongest and most organized. The Muslim Brotherhood is now active in over 80 countries around the world.

the plan is to topple the Mideast - American ties

[Excerpt: "The leader of Jordan's powerful Muslim Brotherhood warned Saturday that unrest in Egypt will spread across the Mideast and Arabs will topple leaders allied with the United States."]

This is not an Egyptian problem this is a Middle Eastern movement with far reaching possibilities. And yes they are at work in the U.S. (CAIR) using different tactics.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

This is not an Egyptian problem this is a Middle Eastern movement with far reaching possibilities. And yes they are at work in the U.S. (CAIR) using different tactics.

So few understand that CAIR is a terrorist front group.

[GeneC]

Why Mubarak Must Go

Why Mubarak Must Go

Mubarak may have to go but definitely not replaced by the Muslim Brotherhood!

[volgadon]

To that I would return with a 3 part reposte:

1. Nobody has to have been there to understand the cultural nuances, special interests, and economical and political factors that come into play. On the other side, having been there makes no one an expert either if they fail to understand what they're seeing.

Which is my issue with your post.

2. You don't know what will replace the regime. Even if it is temporarily replaced by something worse, as happened in the French Revolution, democracy may still prevail. I would remind you that America also replaced British rule with undemocratic and often ruthless government regimes until our Constitutional form of government took full form.

I can take a pretty good guess, and democracy isn't it. Democracy isn't the issue (unless you do happen to mean democracy in Plato's negative sense), so the chances of democracy prevailing where it is foreign and unwanted are slim.

3. Egyptians are not aliens from another planet that they would "act completely out of control" in situations where other people wouldn't. Americans are not calm, rational, reasoned people by comparison, we simply have better mechanisms vouchsafed by our form of government to resolve grievences. If we were as unequipped as the Egyptians to seek redress from our government, our behavior would be no different.

Naive? Not even in the slightest.

I'm speaking as someone whose childhood was spent in the shadow of the first Intifada (Dad was often called up on reserve duty for weeks at a stretch), as well as numerous Nakba days, who was in highschool by the epicentre of the second Intifada, and who lived not to far from Mughar where a vicious riot broke out between the Druse and Catholics. BTW, Ukrainians are about as unequiped to seek redress from their government as Egyptians are, yet we see a striking lack of the same kinds of riots prevalent in the Middle East.

[volgadon]

On the other side, folks loyal to Mubarak are pretending to be in the mob, and are breaking things and setting private property on fire, to give the mob a bad name.

Not that the mob needs much help.

[volgadon]

Did you know there is a popular ski resort in Iran? Yes, there is snow in the desert! My point? Assume nothing when it comes to Iran.

Some of us never considered Iran a desert, any more than the USA is.

[GeneC]

Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak will not seek re-election, a senior Obama administration official tells CNN.

[GeneC]

Not sure what happens next but Isaiah foretold that Egypt would be converted to the Gospel in the last days.

Isaiah points out "In hat day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria,... and the Egyptians shall serve [the Lord] with the Assyrians. In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land: whom the Lord of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance."