Illegal Immigration

[Traveler]

I have studied and thought for some time on the subject that is called illegal immigration in politics and in the media. I have discussed this subject with some that are here illegally as well as several residents of Mexico that plan to come to this country by what ever means they can. I have come to the conclusion that these desert people are being exploited in several ways. But they are not the only ones being exploited.

I begin this post/blog with the idea that there is nothing that will stop the flow of these people from anything we do from this side of the border. Why? Because they are not really illegal immigrants. Often for political reasons terms are changed to give wrong impressions - a diversion from the truth. This is called propaganda. The correct term for what is really going on, is refugee. That’s right - we are being flooded with refugees. It is not so much that they are coming here to be a part of our language, nation and culture as it is to escape the corruption of Latin America. Allow me to list some of the awful results of corruption south of the border.

1. Mexico has one of the worse public educational systems in the world. Even though the public education system in the USA has dropped to the lowest of the industrialized nations it is still light years a head of Mexico.

2. Health care. Latin America has a horrible health care system, even for those that can afford it. If there is any indication or possible serious health problems there is too much risk in trusting Latin American health care even for the wealthy. Often the only hope is to flee to the USA.

3. Business. Latin America is overrun with corruption and bribes in the business sector. 80% of the owners of businesses in Mexico desire to come to the USA to escape the corruption. The more successful the business the more organized crime requires bribes and payoffs for protection. Foreign business has moved from the cheep labor South of the border to Asia because the cost of corruption in Latin America is more than the savings in most cases. Mexico has an extremely high unemployment rate. The last time I was in Mexico and talked with locals the jobless situation was similar to the USA during the great depression. Those that have jobs fear being fired or having their pay cut at the whim of employers. Those without jobs are left to find what ever means they can to survive.

4. Politics. We are busy trying to get democracy to work in Iraq but I believe that there are more serious problems in Latin America. To call Mexico a democracy is a joke. Organized crime controls the governments and the government heads are nothing but fronts for crime. Mostly based around prostitution and drugs. Many of the refugees coming to the USA are willing to risk everything they have including their lives and the lives of their families to escape the corruption.

Why is nothing being done? This should not be a mystery to anyone because Mexico fosters rather then prevent the exploitation of it people. Human life is bartered for money. The second largest source of income to the gross national product of Mexico is the exploitation of refugees coming to the USA. This marketing of human resources with such blatant exploitation it should be called slavery.

There is another level of corruption on our side of the border. Listen to the rhetoric being spouted on both sides of the issue. For example - They help the economy and they do the work Americans do not want to do. This is nothing more than bigoted and hateful propaganda to justify exploitations of humans as subhuman slaves of our modern era. It smacks of elitism and social classes. The scum that spouts this hateful excuse or that believe it should be identified for the criminal intent that they are.

Then there is the unbelievable cruel lack of humanity that thinks the best solution is to ship them all back to where they came. Put the military at the border and build a wall and all kinds of things to keep them out. This is nothing more than sticking our heads in the sand and ignoring the corruption south of the border and a great need of humanity for help. But help is not just taking them and more into our country.

What I wonder most is why we Americans allow our own corrupt politicians to heard us into one of two partisan camps to be politically exploited for our detriment and the detriment of the refugees. The first thing we need to do is recognize Mexico for the evil and corrupt government and system that it is. We should appeal to the world to recognize the government of Mexico as a failure to it own people. We need to call on Mexico for social and political reforms. Pressure Mexico to educate their illiterate masses. Pressure Mexico to end the business sense of bribes and corruption. We need to give the Mexican government real incentives to end the enslaving exploitation of their citizens and the peon mentality for which they are famous. We need to make sure the refugees here are aware of what their system has done to them and their families. If we ignore the corruption of Latin America and continue to allow it to grow it will one day overtake us as well.

The Traveler

[Fiannan]

Rarely mentioned in this debate is just how racist Mexico really is. Mestizo and European Mexicans could not care less if they can give away their Indian citizens (lower classes primarily from the south) to the USA. Also, Mexico is extremely hostile towards illegal immigrants from Latin America and the Caribbian (especially if they are black). If the US immigration policies were close to that of Mexico's civil rights folk would have something to complain about.

[pushka]

Traveler, thanks for that refreshing outlook on the immigration (refugee)situation in the States. I agree wholeheartedly with your comments and your suggestions of how to remedy the situation.

I only wish that your opinion could be mirrored elsewhere in the USA and over here in Europe and the UK with regard to the Asylum Seekers, also refugees, from many countries to which they cannot return for fear of their lives being ended, or of being imprisoned and possibly tortured for their sometimes Christian beliefs, in Muslim countries, or for being against the corrupt governments in others.

[Lindy]

Ok, my two cents....

I will not dispute the fact that Mexico has it's problems, but I think that the immigrants (yes, I think of them as immigrants) DO bring to the US problems that need to be addressed. I am not saying that ALL bring up problems...it's just those problems that do exist that are being brought to the attention of the public. The drugs, the welfare, the no license/ no insurance drivers on our roads, the crime rate. These are things that we all pay for with increased taxes and no cost of living increases in our paychecks.... the money has to come from the tax payers to cover and compensate.

I would be in the line to help get a bill signed to help out the immagrants who are working in this country...those who are trying to be good citizens, who pay taxes and contribute to our society. And I think that something really needs to be done to help those who are here to work...to better themselves and their families. So many jobs are filled by illegals who are willing to work for very little pay. Jobs that others don't want to do. Yet these jobs are vital for our economy. It is sad that they ( the illegals) get exploited and treated like garbage... it shouldn't happen. But our govenment doesn't care about something that doesn't effect them personally. Look at the meth problem we had and have had here in the west..... they turned their backs on it casue it wasn't a problem on their side of the nation. Once it got out of control and hit the streets in the east.... THAN it was a problem.

Those who veto the immigration bills don't have to deal with any of the problems...they sit back in their cushie chairs and don't have to worry about Joe Blow down the street, cause it doesn't effect them YET.

I do sympathize with any refugee who flees to our country to save their life or the lives of loved ones. I just see a big difference between a refugee and an illeagal who want's a free ride...or who want's to work the system to get all the benefits they can. Because they can.

[prisonchaplain]

Traveler does bring a unique and important perspective. Seeing the immigrants as refugees from corruption also helps me understand that "the illegals" will never understand American rage that "illegals are cutting in line--in front of those who respect our laws and apply legally." If they come from a culture in which the system is absolutely broken, they would have no idea what it means to hope that going the legal route would work, and would not itself be corrupt (payoffs to immigration officials). This is not to excuse the issue, but to help us understand it.

It's hard for me to get angry at a group of people who partake in a process (illegal immigration) that has been tolerated, almost with abandon, for so long.

Like so many, I would like to see the U.S. get control of its borders, so we can let in who we want. At that point, I would be one in favor of very generous policies. However, as Traveler said, this seems to be a fantasy. And if controlling our borders truly is a fantasy, then this whole debate is a cynical diversion meant to prepare us for a meaningless 2006 & 2008 congressional and presidential campaign seasons.

[Lindy]

Traveler does bring a unique and important perspective. Seeing the immigrants as refugees from corruption also helps me understand that "the illegals" will never understand American rage that "illegals are cutting in line--in front of those who respect our laws and apply legally." If they come from a culture in which the system is absolutely broken, they would have no idea what it means to hope that going the legal route would work, and would not itself be corrupt (payoffs to immigration officials). This is not to excuse the issue, but to help us understand it.

It's hard for me to get angry at a group of people who partake in a process (illegal immigration) that has been tolerated, almost with abandon, for so long.

PC I see the unique and other perspective of looking at them all as "refugees", I understand people wanting to flee from corruption and horrid living conditions. I understand that their education system is horrendous and that menial labor is about all most can do with no education. I really do respect those who come to work and contribute to our society.

I know that many do try to go the legal route....they try to gain legality ...they try to do what is right.... but the United States only grants so many thousand visas or what ever it is to make it legal every year. Most are taken up by professionals... those with an education, the remaining visas are just not enough to go around to the extra thousands that come in.

I do get angry, angry at the system that doesn't care about people...angry at those who come to our country and refuse to learn the language, or to abide by the laws and rules of society.

I shouldn't type when I'm in an angry mood.... doesn't do anyone any good.

[prisonchaplain]

I do get angry, angry at the system that doesn't care about people...angry at those who come to our country and refuse to learn the language, or to abide by the laws and rules of society. I shouldn't type when I'm in an angry mood.... doesn't do anyone any good.

Perhaps this is worthy of another thread, but this factor does not bother me as it does most. Why? A good many immigrants come here to better the lives of their children. They are often middle age, and must take up jobs that require 60+ hours per week. They, quite frankly, do not have the luxury of time or money, that would allow them to learn English at the level we want them to (no accent, no obvious grammar errors).

What does happen is that their offspring will be fluently bilingual, the 3rd generation will favor English, and the fourth generation probably will not even learn the "mother tongue."

Depending on the country of origin, learning English can be tremendously difficult. I know LDS missionaries become roughly proficient in most languages in an incredibly short amount of time, but for immigrants, and even many expats, the first order of business is job and family. Those middle aged and older usually do not master our language.

Personally, looking at the big picture, I'm not too worried about it. As long as they vote for my party!

[john doe]

I have no problem with people coming here to work and to better themselves. All I ask is that if they work here and use the services offered to our citizens, they need to pay taxes just like those of us who are citizens do. If they want to ###### on the teat of our social programs, they need to make an effort to be responsible people.

I work with and around both legal and illegal immigrants a lot, and I think I can see both sides of the issue to some extent. In my experience, the ones who are or who want to be legal do what they can to be productive and also try to blend in with the surrounding society. They even make an attempt to learn the language. Many of the ones who are illegal isolate themselves from the community and tend to become somewhat closed to outsiders and don't seem to make much of an effort to learn the American culture. I understand that this is partially a result of fear from geting sent home, but this closed attitude also limits their ability to better themselves.

I grew up on a farm and understand some of the reasons why farmers employ illegals, Having worked with and around them for some few years. I am also aware of some of the reasons they risk their lives to come work here. I know the current situation is win/win for both parties, the employers not only get cheap labor, they also don't have to pay payroll taxes or go through the hassles of keeping track of the paperwork associated with these transients. Plus, they don't have to put up with complainers, the complaints department is located at the intersection of the farm entrance and the highway. The illegals, on the other hand, have an incredible opportunity of making hundreds or thousands times as much money as if they were to stay home. Many of them send large portions of their pay to their families where they can live fairly well on what is sent south. Plus, when the growing season was over, they could count on a free trip to the border courtesy of Immigration, where they could catch a bus their home villages and take a couple months off from work before coming back and doing it all over again.

Personally, I think that part of the solution should involve more effort to make these illegal workers legal. It should be easier for them to get work visas or green cards, but they need to be monitored more closely than in the past as well. Tax numbers with fingerprints and pictures should be issued to them so they can be taxed at the same rates as those who live here legally do. Employers should be "encouraged" to hire only those who have the correct paperwork to be here by facing stiffer penalties for willfully not doing so. People caught working without the proper permits should be banned from working here for 5 years. Children born in the US should not automatically be given citizenship status if both parents are not here legally.

Those are just some of the thoughts off the top of my head on this issue, and I probably am wrong on a few points, but I see it a starting point for discussion if anyone wants to comment on them.

[Lindy]

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I do get angry, angry at the system that doesn't care about people...angry at those who come to our country and refuse to learn the language, or to abide by the laws and rules of society. I shouldn't type when I'm in an angry mood.... doesn't do anyone any good.

Perhaps this is worthy of another thread, but this factor does not bother me as it does most. Why? A good many immigrants come here to better the lives of their children. They are often middle age, and must take up jobs that require 60+ hours per week. They, quite frankly, do not have the luxury of time or money, that would allow them to learn English at the level we want them to (no accent, no obvious grammar errors).

What does happen is that their offspring will be fluently bilingual

PC... I work retail... I deal with a lot of hispanics who come into the store...and I stand by what I say.... Many REFUSE to learn the language... even the simple words to get by on..... I just think it is rude ...If I was an immigrant to another country... by golly I would respect that country enough to sit down and learn some basic words to try to help myself and others to communicate. Middle age is not an excuse for ignorance or lack of concern. I have never had a problem with accents... or obvious grammer errors.... at least it's a show of respect that they try. And of course their offspring will be fluently bilingual... we pay for them to learn in our schools!

The Russions- the Bosnians who come over at least have the ##### to learn, they put forth an effort in my area to make a difference.

The hispanics ARE very hard working people (those who work) .... no doubts about that... I know they send a lot of money home to family to live on. Here they live 3 or 4 families to a home sometimes..... than take the money that their children make working the fields and add it to their earnings. A lot goes on in different areas that people don't realize. I'm just tired of the lack of respect shown to the country who houses them and feeds them.

[luckynumbersleven]

as a legal immigrant to the US let me share some of my rather contradictory views:

1. the reason many of them have come here illegally is because there is no legal route for them to get here. i'm sick of hearing simpleton conservative TV and radio show hosts say that the only reason they're upset is that these people are breaking the law, but w/ almost no discussion concerning "legal" immigration. in fact, these people are doing nothing different from what their irish, italian, and polish counterparts did in the early 20th century - except that at that time the doors were open (legally) and today they are not, since soon thereafter the US introduced quotas and has since more-or-less put a complete end to the legal immigration of unskilled labor.

2. my historical research indicates that these early 20th century groups didn't assimilate too well either. italians banded together and spoke italian. the americans treated the polacks, wops, and paddies in much the same way as today's wetbacks. as for the mexican flags being waved at recent demos, i also saw many irish flags being displayed recently at an irish celebration they call st. patrick's day - every yr they do this! sean vannity didn't have anything to say about that though.

3. why is nobody calling for the lazarus poem at the bottom of the statue of liberty to be removed? seriously, does it actually mean anything? it is the inherent right of all men to have the freedom to improve their lives - i'd come here illegally too (and so would you) if i had to and lived in some currupt poverty-stricken indigenous ghetto in racist mexico - note how most of the illegals are not european mexicans - in fact, they're lamanites, and we know what the BOM says about them in the last days.

4. illegal, criminal? at the end of the day actually surviving and putting food on the table trumps the law of

the land. even mormons don't believe that we have to obey the laws of the land under all circumstances, otherwise there would have been no revolutionary war to forge this great country. to put law above your own survival means you live in a police state - and to say "yes" to your hellhole of a situation, to live w/ it, makes you nothing but a hindu. that is not the protestant work ethic which built this america.

5. the US has spent yrs trying to fight socialism, to break down trade barriers, to support the creation of the EU rather than see a return to the old europe of nationalist soveriegn states, and now it acts in the opposite way, pursuing the socialistic ideals of trade and job protection, like france almost. when people in these old systems then come here illegally, they're demonized, and yet americans can't then figureout why the poor masses in these countries resort to workers' and peoples' movements, which are generally leftist.

6. if you want to help the indigenous poor of mexico while at the same time putting up a barrier and chucking them out of the US, why not arm them. seriously, give them weapons so that they can wage an insurgent guerilla war against their corrupt government.

7. finally, the situation is nowhere near as bad as in europe, where all of a sudden i now become a right wing fascistic crazyhead. i do support a barrier along the US/mexico/canadian borders (for security reasons) but not deporting all (maybe some) of the illegals, however, when it comes to europe, i'm full on for an application of mein-kampf tactics in order to finally solve our immigrant problems - these immigrants are nothing but dirty vermin who have nothing but total disrespect for our countries. you were dismayed when some illegals waved mexican flags, but a few days later they tactfully changed to US ones - the muslim and near-eastern immigrants in europe actually burn our own flags in the streets! the left refers to them as downtrodden asylum seekers - but i couldn't care a less. they all need to be rounded up and sent en mass to some island (madagascar maybe) and or else we need to come up w/ some more efficient way of getting rid of them. unlike the latinos, these people are a very big threat to the continued existence of traditional european culture.

just some thoughts, later.

[Lindy]

Welcome to ldstalk "lucky'

You do make some good points.... my grand / great grandparents were immigrants.... and I'm glad they got here.... Life was tough for them also, but they worked hard and became part of the country

and contributed to it, becoming part of the solution...not part of the problem. And you won't hear "legal" immigration discussed much because it doesn't affect the politicans in the east... or if it does they sure don't want to talk about coming up with solutions that would benenfit everyone involved. They will capitalize on the tax evasion, welfare use, crime and drug problems to create a stir in the public eye...but they aren't smart enough to try to delve down deeper to see what the underlying problem really is. Or if they are smart enough....they don't show it or they just don't care.

I am all into learning about history... it's something I really enjoy.... you said that the 20th century groups were treated much as the hispanics ( I'm not into the ethnic slurs) are treated today? There MAY be a reason..... lack of respect shown to this country. That is what I am so upset about and it has nothing to do with flying mexican flags at some demonstration..... heck I'd be holding the flag for the Irish if I could...cause that's part of who I am inside. It's important to be proud of your heritage...that's what America is all about... people of all nations coming together as one.

I have no problem with the different ethnic groups living together and speaking their language, upholding their customs (as long as it's legal in our country) and living as Americans in America. But part of living as Americans should include the respect to learn the language of the country, to ATTEMPT to learn enough to get by in society. THAT is the #1 issue I have with the illegals. The drug problem is #2 #3 is the amount of welfare used to those who don't make an effort.

Laminites or non lamanites.... I think respect is due. I'm all for people trying to make a difference in thier lives... I would want to escape a living hell if I was in that same situation. But there is a fine line between wanting to escape and wanting an easy ride.

6. if you want to help the indigenous poor of mexico while at the same time putting up a barrier and chucking them out of the US, why not arm them. seriously, give them weapons so that they can wage an insurgent guerilla war against their corrupt government.

It is sad that no one has thought of something like that before... to help them create a country worth living in. I think because it's so close to home...that giving guns and ammo to help them is going to be seen as insane..... casue we have done that before else where....and had those same guns used against us.

As for the vermin immigrants in Europe.... like I said before...."A lot goes on in different areas that people don't realize. I'm just tired of the lack of respect shown to the country who houses them and feeds them"I think that applies everywhere not just in the USA.

It's the lack of respect I tell you... pure and simple.

well, that's my opinion

[Traveler]

I want to thank all that have read and considered my opinion on this thread but I have a feeling that outside of a few posters most are not grasping my view of the problem and its complexity. During recent trip to Mexico I met a doctor. This is a successful medical MD practicing in Mexico. This doctor plans to come to the USA someday. He is willing to leave behind his practice and his profession and come to the USA and work in agriculture, cleaning hotels or working as a janitor – anything he can to get out of Mexico. He is willing to sacrifice his relative higher economic status to come to the USA at the bottom of the economic food chain. You really think you can stop this kind of refugees with the policies currently being talked about? (When I attended BYU they charged $1.00 for parking in no parking zones – So I use to park on the lawn by the old basketball arena when attending games because I thought it was worth a buck to park 20 feet from the door – the only problem was I was too stupid to keep my mouth shut. When everybody else started parking in the same place by the hundreds the university decided to change the $1.00 policy. I only included this example to demonstrate that understanding a problem is essential to a solution.)

In reference to refugees, I am not talking about some poor uneducated unskilled workers that cannot make it in Mexico – I am talking about a cream of the crop, educated intelligent contributors to the social economic structure. That wants desperately to get out of Mexico and come to the USA. It is my understanding that 80% of professionals in Mexico are willing to publicly state they want to leave Mexico and come to the USA as soon as they can figure out how to do it. Something is going on in Mexico and when their citizens get tired of it, they are leaving to come to the USA by what ever means they can. If allowed I am not sure that there would be anyone left in Mexico.

This is not because they do not love the place of their birth. The other interesting thing to me is that the Mexican government by policy is not making any effort to prevent any of its citizens from leaving. In fact they encourage it. Even among their most productive citizens. What are they thinking??? What possible motivation do they have? When it becomes apparent that someone intends to close that door between the USA and Mexico – what do you think will happen? That over night no one will want or try to leave Mexico and come to the USA? Is it possible that any efforts to slow the process will only make matters worse? At least think, what you would do in their circumstance.

One thing that has always been a bewilderment to me is the attitude of, “If it isn’t my problem – why should I care.” Or “Until some social behavior causes me personal grief – why should I care.” If Mexico (or Hollywood or anything else) is corrupting society and social interactions what should I care as long as I can live my life the way I want. One thing that ought to be considered is what are you going to do with the refugees – and even of more concern – what is to be done about you and yours when you become refugees?

The Traveler

[pushka]

luckynumbersleven...You mentioned in another post that you were from the UK and now living in the USA? Am I correct to say that you were a British Citizen then?

I am saddened by your reference to 'Mein Kampf' means of solving the European immigration/asylum seekers problems, and how you would adopt those or other measures...may I ask just how far you would take these 'other measures'? Surely you're not suggesting that we go fully down the road of Adolf Hitler and set up concentration camps and put into action 'the final solution'?

You say that you are considered a fascist, well yes by me you certainly are when you start to talk like that about people.

I agree that there are good and bad in ALL societies. Not all asylum seekers/immigrants will be fully grateful to the UK or other parts of Europe for accepting them into the country, however with the way they are treated here in internment camps and such, I cannot really blame them.

I'm sorry, but I just cannot see the good in making sweeping generalisations about a group of people, all individuals, as you yourself are, and speak about them as if they were all of the same mindset. Surely knowing of the persecution that your own LDS ancestors endured you can empathise at least a little with some of these people?

[BenRaines]

We are a magnet for refugees from around the world. Those who come here legally I have no problem with. For those who wish to justify breaking immigration laws for a better opportunity would you justify also stealing someones car because you do not have one? How about robbing the bank because you have no cash.

I cannot justify crime to get what I want and don't think anyone else should. Do we need a legal immigrant worker program, Yes.

[Lindy]

I want to thank all that have read and considered my opinion on this thread but I have a feeling that outside of a few posters most are not grasping my view of the problem and its complexity.

Trav~I'm sorry I went off on a tangent... it's just a sore subject around my parts. I do understand what you meant about immigration pertaining to people other than than those who work the fields/orchards. I would be all for adapting some reform to accept more professional/skilled immigrants into our country. All it can do is increase our professional labor forces. It stinks that nothing more is done to help those who can contribute to our country with their knowledge and expertise. I know the problem exists.

I have a friend from Africa who's husband is a scientist... degree upon degree... he worked for a govenment installation here in Washington.... and life was good. Two of their three children were born in the United States... and than his visa was getting ready to expire... and for a year and a half he tried to get it renewed. So much red tape to go thru and the government contractor he was working for couldn't even get the thing renewed for him! He ended up going to Alabama and a lawyer got the visa problem worked out. But you know....after all the grief... he had enough of the treatment of a low class citizen and moved his family back to Africa where they welcomed him with open arms. I knew then there was a big problem... and this was almost 8 years ago! It's a problem that won't be addressed by congress cause they don't see it as a problem YET. It is a complex problem.... maybe too complex for political minds to grasp.

[luckynumbersleven]

how about looking at it this way

while i cannot justify stealing a car because i don't have one

i can justify stealing if the choice to obey the law means that i wouldn't survive

only a ###### or a hindu would believe it wrong to break the law in a survival situation

it's inherently unfair that billions of people are piled up on top of each other in regions of the world much smaller than the US or Canada or Australia

we have a population problem on this planet - not an over population problem - but a population density problem which has led to the inequitable distribution of resources (of which there are plenty really), this in turn has led to extreme poverty in some parts - and this in turn results in didctatorships trying to retain their dominant position, crime, and, mass migrations - which are a part of the history of mankind - it is ridiculous for us to be surprised at such migrations in the 21st century and expect everyone to stay put

a people needs land - breathing room - in order to prosper. that's why it's so saddening that the once great british empire has for some soft liberal reason given up its once former imperial ambitions, a result of which britain is now a very expensive place to live!

men want to better their lives - i believe that's part of the spirit in them - and so i find it very hard to condemn those who are trying to do that - if they are doing it illegally it is because there is no legal way for them to do it, but if i was in their situation i would do it too, i would never be ready to accept my fate and stay put just because someone says that's the right thing to do, because i don't believe it is - that's why the irish, italians, poles, english, scandinavians, and germans etc all came here - why weren't they illegals? because at the time it wasn't illegal, duh!

last, illegal or legal aside - that on it's own cannot be the only problem. many people back in the UK are very opposed to legal immigration. in fact, it will be a big election issue, and these immigrants came here w/ the proper paperwork! so, we also need to be careful who we let in under legal schemes. personally, i am very dismayed that it is easier for someone from continental europe or the near-east to immigrate to the UK than it is for an american! it defies all common sense. i propose that the US abandon Nafta, the UK abandon the EU, we all put a halt on any and all legal immigration from non-english speaking countries, and enter into a free trade zone encompassing just US, Canada, UK, Australia and New Zealand. but we must put a halt to the immigration into anglo-saxon countries of all practising muslims who should be prepared to renounce islam and allah (and we'd record it) etc before being let in under say some asylum claim. the sooner the supreme court finds that islam is not a religion protected by the 1st amendment, the better.

We are a magnet for refugees from around the world. Those who come here legally I have no problem with. For those who wish to justify breaking immigration laws for a better opportunity would you justify also stealing someones car because you do not have one? How about robbing the bank because you have no cash.

I cannot justify crime to get what I want and don't think anyone else should. Do we need a legal immigrant worker program, Yes.

[shanstress70]

I pretty much agree with you, Lindy. I don't care about mistakes made when speaking English... just try! I know a Mexican family who has their child in a church daycare. The mother and father speak English OK, but speak Spanish at home. Their son is 2 and doesn't know enough English to follow simple commands at daycare. The daycare teachers have asked them to please speak English with him some at home so that he can follow simple instructions. She told them she would, but confided in me that they have decided not to speak English in their home at all because he will learn it and abandon the Spanish! What the...? So his teachers continue to struggle.

I know several Russian women who have come over to the US, and they have embraced our culture and learned English lightning fast, while still embracing their own culture. Yes, I'm generalizing, but this is what I've seen firsthand. If it is easy to keep speaking Spanish and have every need taken care of, what is the motivation to learn English?

And as for the ones who work for 'pennies'... at least in my city, Mexican women make a ton cleaning homes. I know of one lady who cleans in my neighborhood. She makes $120 per 2000 sq ft house each week, and it takes her about 3 hours to do a house. That's $40 an hour... tax free! If she works 40 hours a week, that's $83,200... tax free!

I understand your position, Traveler, but I disagree with it. As much as I would love to help everyone on this earth, we cannot! How will we decide which countries to help? Mexico is not the only impoverished, corrupt country.

As a mother, I can't help but think of all the children who are here illegally who will be competing with my child in the future. They will probably get 100% paid scholarships to the best colleges, then there's the whole affirmative action thing that will probably give them an even bigger edge in the future workplace.

I know I sound really selfish, and maybe I am, but at some point you have to look out for your own. Have you ever been to rural Appalachia? If so, then you've seen that we have our own poverty to deal with. If we had an endless supply of money, I'd be all about helping Mexico, but first we need to worry about our own, as cold as that may sound.

[Lindy]

I know I sound really selfish, and maybe I am, but at some point you have to look out for your own. Have you ever been to rural Appalachia? If so, then you've seen that we have our own poverty to deal with. If we had an endless supply of money, I'd be all about helping Mexico, but first we need to worry about our own, as cold as that may sound.

OH AMEN SISTER! There are so many of our own people who need help.... overlooked because of quotas that need to be filled it's sad really if you think about it. I"ll stand beside you with my cold heart in hand :)

[prisonchaplain]

I pretty much agree with you, Lindy. I don't care about mistakes made when speaking English... just try! I know a Mexican family who has their child in a church daycare. The mother and father speak English OK, but speak Spanish at home. Their son is 2 and doesn't know enough English to follow simple commands at daycare. The daycare teachers have asked them to please speak English with him some at home so that he can follow simple instructions. She told them she would, but confided in me that they have decided not to speak English in their home at all because he will learn it and abandon the Spanish! What the...? So his teachers continue to struggle.

This is actually a huge issue: the desire of immigrants to fit in, yet not lose their roots. Add the reality that the parents do not speak English well, and expect their children to look to them for counsel and parental authority. The reality in some immigrant households is that children do lose the mother tongue, and then gradually gain an unconscious disrespect for the parents, who talk baby talk.

Another reality is that while many people would respect those who try hard, but speak broken English, as a society, America is not very kind about this. I've seen it in myself. When we realize someone isn't fluent we tense up, become somewhat cold, and many unthinking people become quite cruel: Get out if you can't even speak the language.

In contrast, during my 6.5 years in Korea, most Koreans were ecstatic if I could stumble out a few konglish phrases, and were more than willing to assist with translating, when needed. I speak to this because I've seen both sides.

Some immigrants overlook the slights, and boldy communicate in broken English. But for many older immigrants, it's so humiliating to talk like a baby, and quite often be rejected, rather than encouraged for trying.

As a mother, I can't help but think of all the children who are here illegally who will be competing with my child in the future. They will probably get 100% paid scholarships to the best colleges, then there's the whole affirmative action thing that will probably give them an even bigger edge in the future workplace.

America will soon be facing depopulation if we descrease our immigration. LDS families may still be large, but our birthrate is rapidly falling beneath replacement levels. Look to Europe and the wealthier parts of Asia, where they are already facing shrinking populations. The time will come when we'll do like Australia use to, and actually pay people to come and work in our country. We'd best not be burning bridges any time soon.

[Traveler]

We are a magnet for refugees from around the world. Those who come here legally I have no problem with. For those who wish to justify breaking immigration laws for a better opportunity would you justify also stealing someones car because you do not have one? How about robbing the bank because you have no cash.

I cannot justify crime to get what I want and don't think anyone else should. Do we need a legal immigrant worker program, Yes.

Why is it you want to attach criminal to someone that over looks laws that are not inforced? How do you personally feel about laws that would affect you but are not inforced? 5 miles over the spead limit of freeways? Are you a criminal for not paying attention to laws that are not inforced. I am not saying there is not a problem but that criminalizing someone for not respecting uninforced laws is not a solution.

BTW: How many of our heros are the one's that are willing to push the limits to get the job done. Can you name any current action hero that does not "push" the law to get the job done?

Most consider telling on someone (especially for minor stuff) worse than committing an offense. Are we really a country governed by law or are we all inclined to be criminals when no one is looking thinking that the real sin is getting caught?

The Traveler

[john doe]

Why is it you want to attach criminal to someone that over looks laws that are not inforced? How do you personally feel about laws that would affect you but are not inforced?

Just because a certain law may not see a whole lot of enforcement does not make breaking that law right.

5 miles over the spead limit of freeways? Are you a criminal for not paying attention to laws that are not inforced.

Not necessarily a criminal, but yes, someone who broke the law. I personally would like to see more enforcement of red-light runners and others who make it unsafe for other drivers around them, but apparently the local cops don't think it's that big of a deal. Besides, that's got very little to do with the subject at hand.

I am not saying there is not a problem but that criminalizing someone for not respecting uninforced laws is not a solution.

Criminalizing? How about letting them know that breaking the law carries with it some extra penalties? I guess we could just throw them in jail or fine them. We could put the illegal immigrants on work details cleaning up the highways, would that be more acceptable to you?

BTW: How many of our heros are the one's that are willing to push the limits to get the job done. Can you name any current action hero that does not "push" the law to get the job done?

Just so we're clear on this, TV or movie action heroes are not real people, and most everyone would agree that if they were engaging in that kind of conduct in real life, they would be just as far in prison as the people they prosecute. Movie heroes portray what we sometimes wish we could do in real life, the problem is that there are real and life-long consequences to our actions, which preclude us from engaging in such actions.

Most consider telling on someone (especially for minor stuff) worse than committing an offense. Are we really a country governed by law or are we all inclined to be criminals when no one is looking thinking that the real sin is getting caught?

Intentionally or unitentionally, this last sentence just shot down the rest of your post. The answer, of course, is that there are laws and rules in this country, and the sin is the same whether the person gets caught or not. If you object to the laws that are being enforced, you should talk to your legislator about getting them changed, not just winking and looking the other way.

[ALatterDaySaint]

PC... I work retail... I deal with a lot of hispanics who come into the store...and I stand by what I say.... Many REFUSE to learn the language... even the simple words to get by on..... I just think it is rude ...If I was an immigrant to another country... by golly I would respect that country enough to sit down and learn some basic words to try to help myself and others to communicate. Middle age is not an excuse for ignorance or lack of concern. I have never had a problem with accents... or obvious grammer errors.... at least it's a show of respect that they try. And of course their offspring will be fluently bilingual... we pay for them to learn in our schools!

The Russions- the Bosnians who come over at least have the ##### to learn, they put forth an effort in my area to make a difference.

The hispanics ARE very hard working people (those who work) .... no doubts about that... I know they send a lot of money home to family to live on. Here they live 3 or 4 families to a home sometimes..... than take the money that their children make working the fields and add it to their earnings. A lot goes on in different areas that people don't realize. I'm just tired of the lack of respect shown to the country who houses them and feeds them.

I think you're absolutley right Lindy! And I say we react to these "scum" in the way the Lord would deal with them!!! And by that I mean, why not learn some basic words in their language too? My reaction a lot of times has been first suprise, then slight dumbfoundness, then humor and they either begin to speak to me in their language OR they start "respecting me" and blast off in english conversation with suprising skill.

A lot of these "rude" forieners actually do know english. So when you're bad mouthing them to a co-worker about them "Refusing to learn the language" Trust me, they hear (and understand) every word of it and THAT may be why they pretend to not know english because they get a kick of watching your face turn read.

Yes, lets deal with these people as they aught to be delt with. Lets kill them with kindness!

[Traveler]

Okay just for fun let us consider a hypothetical. Recently a giant volcano was discovered near the South Pole (Currently not on any volcano maps (yet) and it is extremely hard to find information on the net but if anyone likes I can provide some information). What some scientist thought was global warming was nothing more than this volcano warming things up a bit. This volcano is relatively young, is the 2nd largest in the world and it is active with eruption eminent (which in geological terms means sometime within the next 100,000 years but it could happen next week). Because of the location of this volcano and its activity, when it erupts it will melt most of the Antarctic ice. This will raise the ocean levels from 12 to 20 feet. This will result in displacement of 80% of the world’s human population. It will also shut down 98% of all sea ports world wide.

So here is the hypothetical: If for whatever reasons – of necessity – you and your family become refugees: what would you expect from those that have far more than they need? What would you do for your family’s survival? If you were desperate, would you break any laws, especially laws that were not being enforced?

Perhaps there should be two threads for discussion:

1. The importance, purpose, morality and value of un-enforced law to those that abide and those that do not (including how to go forward with such laws) and

2. How desperate refugees ought to be treated by the more affluent (Christians???). It would appear to me that most Christians favor passing or enforcing laws (akin to passing by or ignoring a wounded person on your way to Jericho) rather than sacrificing any of your precocious possessions. Or heaven forbid we should try to help “THEM”.

The Traveler

[shanstress70]

If for whatever reasons – of necessity – you and your family become refugees: what would you expect from those that have far more than they need? What would you do for your family’s survival? If you were desperate, would you break any laws, especially laws that were not being enforced?

I wouldn't expect that they provide for my family when they have their own family that is not being provided for.

Yes, there are lots of affluent Americans, but there is also a sizeable portion who are liveing at or under the poverty line.

As I asked before, how are we going to decide who to help? Do you think we should help everyone in the world who is impoverished?

[shanstress70]

I think you're absolutley right Lindy! And I say we react to these "scum" in the way the Lord would deal with them!!! And by that I mean, why not learn some basic words in their language too?

Lindy never used the word 'scum'... that was your word.