A Question

[Dr T]

Hi all/Ray,

You said

I believe this "cycle" never began, because it has always been and will always be this way.

Do you actually see it as a cycle that never began? How, if it is actually a cycle, can it not have a beginning?

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Ray]

In other words, just as some people believe there is and has always been one God, and there never was a time when God was not, because God has always been and always will be, we [LDS] also believe that... it's just that we believe our God has always been "us", and not just one person, or three.

And btw, while the word "cycle" may not be the most appropriate word, as things have been they will be.

[Christos]

We are not God.

We are created in the image of God BUT we are now created in the image of Adam.

One must remember that when it says in Genesis that man was created in the image of God, it actually means more than just image in the english sense.

The original hebrew word is tseh'-lem which is from an unusual root meaning to shade; a phantom, that is (figuratively) illusion, resemblence; hense a representative figure.

This is known to theologians as a natural image, as opposed to an artificial image, such examples could be Icons, photographs, statues or even works of literature.

Man is a natural image of God. God doesn't look like man, this isn't a visible image otherwise it would use a different hebrew word plus it would be an artificial image. God also says to Moses that man shall never see his face unless he should die.

God was existant before time itself.

[Ray]

Christos,

You talk as if you really believe your ideas, but I know better than to believe all you say.

We are not God.

.

Of course we are not, but we do have the potential to become like Them, because we are the children of God, just as Seth was a child of Adam.

We are created in the image of God BUT we are now created in the image of Adam.

And Adam was created in the image of God, as all sons are created by fathers.

One must remember that when it says in Genesis that man was created in the image of God, it actually means more than just image in the english sense.

Oh, one must, must one? So what happens to those who don't?

The original hebrew word is tseh'-lem which is from an unusual root meaning to shade; a phantom, that is (figuratively) illusion, resemblence; hense a representative figure.

As a son is a figure of his very own father, a being in illusion or resemblence of him.

Man is a natural image of God.

Yes, because Man was naturally created by God.

God doesn't look like man.

Heh, just wait til you see Jesus Christ and our Father. :)

God also says to Moses that man shall never see his face unless he should die.

That refers to how a natural man cannot see God in His glory, unless that man is also "transfigured" by the power of God, as Moses was transfigured on the mountain.

[Christos]

If God, the Father has a human body, what was the point of sending down his son, when he could have gone down himself?

It would deem the incarnation pointless.

We must not think of the God-head in earthly human terms.

Out of curiosity, I hear that you believe that God physically came down to Earth and physically had intercourse with the virgin Mary.

BTW, I know better than to believe all that your Joseph Smith has to say.

[shanstress70]

Your points make a lot of sense to me, Christos. I have a difficult time believing that God has a human body. I think He's so more than that, like something awesome that we cannot even begin to imagine.

[Christos]

He truely is.

:)

[Palerider]

If God, the Father has a human body, what was the point of sending down his son, when he could have gone down himself?

It would deem the incarnation pointless.

We must not think of the God-head in earthly human terms.

Out of curiosity, I hear that you believe that God physically came down to Earth and physically had intercourse with the virgin Mary.

BTW, I know better than to believe all that your Joseph Smith has to say.

I know that Joseph Smith is and was a Prophet of God......he restored Christ Church to the earth...

[Dr T]

Hello Palerider,

How do you distinguish between "knowing" that and "believing" that?

Dr. T

[Palerider]

I prayed and asked about it......you too can know if you pray.......

[prisonchaplain]

I know that Joseph Smith is and was a Prophet of God......he restored Christ Church to the earth...

Of course you believe this. You're LDS. The purpose of these posts varies by poster, but I assume those of you who are LDS and engage us "non" folk, are hoping to move us from thinking, "No way...impossible," to "Hmm. not likely, but possible," to "It really could be--let me pray on it with faith an expectation." Thus, you patiently answer our sometimes seemingly challenging questions.

Hopefully, in the process, you come to understand some of the misundertandings, the nonunderstandings, and the sometimes intelligent questions your non-LDS friends, neighbors, and perhaps even family have.

[ALatterDaySaint]

If God, the Father has a human body, what was the point of sending down his son, when he could have gone down himself?

It would deem the incarnation pointless.

If God, the Father has a *body of flesh and bone*, then the point of sending down His Son was so that His Son could also recieve a body, which Christ did gain.

Now, Christ and God are so simular and I say identical, that many religions mistake them for "one in the same" so if God the Son has a body then why shouldnt it be, so that He could be like His Father?

And to answer your question directly as to why God the Father couldnt "do it Himself", its because Father has made His Only Begotton the advocate. There is no way to the Father save through the Son. So, if He said that and then turned around and died on the cross Himself he would be robbing justice. God is who we owe our dept of sin and the creditor cant pay off the debt, and we, the debtor cant do it either so, a mediator, or third party willing and able to pay the debt for us had to step in. Enter Jesus Christ.

We must not think of the God-head in earthly human terms.

What other way do we have than "earthly human terms"? I know of no divine terms yet. I'm still mortal. However I do understand what you're trying to say and I agree. But at the same time when we try to break free of our limited understanding we often go astray and err on the side of fanciful and silly. God is not a blob of mist or energy. God has made us in his image and in his likness. We are in the image of His Only Begotten and we *man* have walked and lived with the Son and even after he rose from the dead we did feel his body. Is the body of God human? No. Is it flesh and bone? Yes.

Out of curiosity, I hear that you believe that God physically came down to Earth and physically had intercourse with the virgin Mary.

Out of curiosity, I believe you're asking this because you want to stir up contention. Of course God didnt sleep with Mary. Havent you noticed that when God does something in the scriptures its by His "Word".

God can drive out evil spirits with a word so why not place a tender, mortal baby into a woman's womb?

BTW, I know better than to believe all that your Joseph Smith has to say.

If you know better then why is it that you frequent a site founded by faithful members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints which he played the key-stone role of restoring through Jesus Christ?

[boyando]

Hello Palerider,

How do you distinguish between "knowing" that and "believing" that?

Dr. T

I may be speaking out of turn because the question was derected to pale rider but we "Mormons distinguish "knowing and believing" same as you do. We just use different senses than our eye's and ear's.

It may start as a desire to beleive but once we get to the point that we no longer need faith, we know. Thats not to say that we can't lose that knowledge by bad behavour. I have that knowledge.

[Lindy]

"If God, the Father has a human body, what was the point of sending down his son, when he could have gone down himself?" But wasn't that the whole point in the beginning? For the Son to honor the Father and give all glory to Him?

"God is not a blob of mist or energy. God has made us in his image and in his likness. We are in the image of His Only Begotten and we *man* have walked and lived with the Son and even after he rose from the dead we did feel his body." Exactally the thing I couldn't figure out while growing up... if God had no real image... was just a blob of energy or some misty configuration.. WHY weren't we made in THAT image... in that likeness as it was stated in the Bible?

"Out of curiosity, I hear that you believe that God physically came down to Earth and physically had intercourse with the virgin Mary" What I am wondering is WHERE on earth you hear that dribble? Think back on the plagues of Egypt... did the spirit physically go in and kill each first born?.... not that is written that I have found.... it was done by the spirit passing thru/over/around as far as I could tell. Same thing for for the conception of Christ ... it was just done... who are we to ask how? Christos.... you can't believe everything you hear...so many lie just to lie...they have no remorse for deceiving others.... we just have to work double time to help those who have been lied to.

[prisonchaplain]

But wasn't that the whole point in the beginning? For the Son to honor the Father and give all glory to Him?

The Son honoring the Father was NOT the main point. The main point was redeeming us. The Father sent his Son, who paid the price for us. The main point is God so loved the world that He sent his one and only Son...

"God is not a blob of mist or energy.

No, He is spirit.

God has made us in his image and in his likeness. We are in the image of His Only Begotten and we *man* have walked and lived with the Son and even after he rose from the dead we did feel his body." Exactally the thing I couldn't figure out while growing up... if God had no real image... was just a blob of energy or some misty configuration.. WHY weren't we made in THAT image... in that likeness as it was stated in the Bible?

No one in the Judeo-Christian tradition, from Moses to John the Revelator ever even hinted at the Father having a physical body. Nobody said, "Since Moses says we're made in God's image, what does He look like?" It has been understood that we being in his image has more to do with our character, our ability to reason, to love, to create, etc.--those aspects that distinguish us from all other creation.

"Out of curiosity, I hear that you believe that God physically came down to Earth and physically had intercourse with the virgin Mary" What I am wondering is WHERE on earth you hear that dribble? Think back on the plagues of Egypt... did the spirit physically go in and kill each first born?.... not that is written that I have found.... it was done by the spirit passing thru/over/around as far as I could tell. Same thing for for the conception of Christ ... it was just done... who are we to ask how? Christos.... you can't believe everything you hear...so many lie just to lie...they have no remorse for deceiving others.... we just have to work double time to help those who have been lied to.

I believe there is a phrase in LDS writings that says that the Father knew Mary in the manner of men, or some such verbage. Granted, the "how" is not spelled out exactly, but the conjecture is not difficult to make. So, Christos' question is not dribble, but rather theological speculation based upon a not-unreasonable reading of text.

[Lindy]

But wasn't that the whole point in the beginning? For the Son to honor the Father and give all glory to Him?

The Son honoring the Father was NOT the main point. The main point was redeeming us. The Father sent his Son, who paid the price for us. The main point is God so loved the world that He sent his one and only Son...

Of course the main point was redeeming us..... that was the honor....the glory .... that God would send his Son to redeem the world of sin...and all glory given to Him (God) BECAUSE He so loved the world.... glory not to be be lavished on the one who sacrificed himself as Lucifer wanted in the first place.

"God is not a blob of mist or energy.

No, He is spirit. No, that is your opinion only... it's your right to think that...same as it is my right to think he has a form

God has made us in his image and in his likeness. We are in the image of His Only Begotten and we *man* have walked and lived with the Son and even after he rose from the dead we did feel his body." Exactally the thing I couldn't figure out while growing up... if God had no real image... was just a blob of energy or some misty configuration.. WHY weren't we made in THAT image... in that likeness as it was stated in the Bible?

No one in the Judeo-Christian tradition, from Moses to John the Revelator ever even hinted at the Father having a physical body. Nobody said, "Since Moses says we're made in God's image, what does He look like?" It has been understood that we being in his image has more to do with our character, our ability to reason, to love, to create, etc.--those aspects that distinguish us from all other creation. Well, again PC... that is your interpretation of what "tradition" allows you to think. I believe that the Bible was put together by man, and I have always understood the Bible as being not as it should be...with passages and books missing. This was even BEFORE I had thought about joining the church. If there was a missing book of the Bible that stated that man was created in the EXACT image of God.... arms, legs, chest, ears...etc.... would you ignore that? It would defy the traditional "characteristic" aspect theory of what some want to believe. Would it be wrong to change your view?... just hypothectically speaking..... don't mean to make you pour salt into your coffee as you think about it

"Out of curiosity, I hear that you believe that God physically came down to Earth and physically had intercourse with the virgin Mary" What I am wondering is WHERE on earth you hear that dribble? Think back on the plagues of Egypt... did the spirit physically go in and kill each first born?.... not that is written that I have found.... it was done by the spirit passing thru/over/around as far as I could tell. Same thing for for the conception of Christ ... it was just done... who are we to ask how? Christos.... you can't believe everything you hear...so many lie just to lie...they have no remorse for deceiving others.... we just have to work double time to help those who have been lied to.

I believe there is a phrase in LDS writings that says that the Father knew Mary in the manner of men, or some such verbage. Granted, the "how" is not spelled out exactly, but the conjecture is not difficult to make. So, Christos' question is not dribble, but rather theological speculation based upon a not-unreasonable reading of text. I think that the key word was writings I KNOW it's not doctrine being taught to anyone in my faith. and I didnt' say that Christos' question was dribble... just that accusation he heard from somewhere ...sorry if it sounded like I was attacking the question.

[prisonchaplain]

Of course the main point was redeeming us..... that was the honor....the glory .... that God would send his Son to redeem the world of sin...and all glory given to Him (God) BECAUSE He so loved the world.... glory not to be be lavished on the one who sacrificed himself as Lucifer wanted in the first place.

Well, this is a difference in theology. Satan was a mere angel, and did see himself as being in competition with our Heavenly Father. Jesus, on the other hand, as the one and only Son of God, God himself, is indeed worthy of worship. In Hebrews 1:6-8 we read

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. KJV

Two simple points: 1. The Heavenly Father commands the angels to worship Jesus--an act that only God can rightly receive (reference the first of the 10 commandments). 2. The Heavenly Father addresses his Son as God. Conclusion: All glory does go to God the Son.

No, that is your opinion only... it's your right to think that...same as it is my right to think he has a form

It's not my opinion that God is spirit. That much is clear in Scripture. God is spirit, those who worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. What is a matter of discussion is whether the Heavenly Father has a body. If the revelations of Joseph Smith are true, then He clearly does. Absent those revelations, most Christian scholars and leaders would suggest that a body would be a limitation upon the God who is infinite.

Well, again PC... that is your interpretation of what "tradition" allows you to think. I believe that the Bible was put together by man, and I have always understood the Bible as being not as it should be...with passages and books missing. This was even BEFORE I had thought about joining the church. If there was a missing book of the Bible that stated that man was created in the EXACT image of God.... arms, legs, chest, ears...etc.... would you ignore that? It would defy the traditional "characteristic" aspect theory of what some want to believe. Would it be wrong to change your view?... just hypothectically speaking..... don't mean to make you pour salt into your coffee as you think about it

Don't get mad at my now, but I'm going to use the "L" word. Within the Christian tradition, those who believe the Bible is mostly allegorical, or myths, or that it is inspired in the manner of Shakespear, or that it is only a collection of writings, and not the Word of God, preserved, truly inspired, and mostly literal, historical, and definitely spiritually binding--we call such folks liberals.

I'm curious now as to whether there are variances in how LDS folk interpret the Triad. Are there fundamentalists who insist on a literal interpretation? Liberals, who find much of it allegorical? I ask this because I've been led to believe that despite the limitations you outline, most LDS seem to indicate that the Bible is roughly equivalent in import and authority to the Triad.

[Ray]

...most Christian scholars and leaders would suggest that a body would be a limitation upon the God who is infinite.

Why? And in what sense? And do they also think Jesus has a limitation?

[prisonchaplain]

<div class='quotemain'>

...most Christian scholars and leaders would suggest that a body would be a limitation upon the God who is infinite.

Why? And in what sense? And do they also think Jesus has a limitation?

Why is because a body is defining--it marks us in a place. There is a part of me that is here and not there. Likewise, though it could be argued that God's spirit is everywhere, there is still a part of God that is confined to a particular place.

Does Jesus has limitation, because he is body. Yes, you could say that. Scripture tells us (Philippians 2) that with the incarnation Jesus willingly gave up his godly powers and became "a little lower than the angels."

BTW, this particular LDS distinctive--that the Father is corporeal--is not one I find especially troubling.

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

...most Christian scholars and leaders would suggest that a body would be a limitation upon the God who is infinite.

Why? And in what sense? And do they also think Jesus has a limitation?

Why is because a body is defining--it marks us in a place. There is a part of me that is here and not there. Likewise, though it could be argued that God's spirit is everywhere, there is still a part of God that is confined to a particular place.

Just as we are here. Or do you think I have no control of this “place” because I am sitting where I am?

Does Jesus has limitation, because he is body. Yes, you could say that. Scripture tells us (Philippians 2) that with the incarnation Jesus willingly gave up his godly powers and became "a little lower than the angels."

That’s a misinterpretation of scripture, because He was still our God on Earth. And He still had every one of His “powers” though He appeared in form as Man.

BTW, this particular LDS distinctive--that the Father is corporeal--is not one I find especially troubling.

That’s good, but you still need to receive an assurance from God so you can know this truth.

[prisonchaplain]

<div class='quotemain'>

Does Jesus has limitation, because he is body. Yes, you could say that. Scripture tells us (Philippians 2) that with the incarnation Jesus willingly gave up his godly powers and became "a little lower than the angels."

That’s a misinterpretation of scripture, because He was still our God on Earth. And He still had every one of His “powers” though He appeared in form as Man.

There is a particular early church heresy--Docetism I believe--that insisted Jesus did not really suffer on earth, but only appeared to do so. John declared such a teaching damnable. He said that when you test the spirits, you can know if they are true if they teach that Jesus really came in the flesh.

When you say Jesus remained God, with all his powers, I beg to differ. Yes, the Spirit was in him. Yes, he could not give up what he was. But, he did give up his powers. He relied on prayers to the Father, on the power of the Spirit, etc. during his sojourn on earth.

[Ray]

When you say Jesus remained God, with all his powers, I beg to differ. Yes, the Spirit was in him. Yes, he could not give up what he was. But, he did give up his powers. He relied on prayers to the Father, on the power of the Spirit, etc. during his sojourn on earth.

HE healed the sick. HE cast out evil spirits. HE raised the dead. HE rose from the dead. HE was our God.

And if you really don't believe that, then you really don't know who He was.

[prisonchaplain]

HE healed the sick. HE cast out evil spirits. HE raised the dead. HE rose from the dead. HE was our God.

And if you really don't believe that, then you really don't know who He was.

He did, and we do (in his name). But, he did so by the power of the Spirit that was in him. The beauty of this truth is that, just as Jesus said, we shall do what he did and even more. Hallelujah! (Sorry, you got the Pentecostal in me going, here!)

[Ray]

The spirit that was in Him was His, not our Father's or the Holy Spirit. The latter are two different people who are also God just as much as He was, and is, and always will be forever.

And as we become like Him, and our Father, as we are guided by the Holy Spirit, we will all be "one" just as much as they are, and always will be forever.

But you just can't see that, can you?

How else can I possibly help you?

You think you know what is really the truth as much as you think I do... and yet we are not one together.

[Lindy]

And as we become like Him, and our Father, as we are guided by the Holy Spirit, we will all be "one" just as much as they are, and always will be forever.

I think that is where some get confused Ray.... they don't understand the "like unto" or "just as much"..... I think that one just has to have a realization of what that means to them..... to be "like" or to be "one" in reason or purpose.

You think you know what is really the truth as much as you think I do... and yet we are not one together

I'm not attacking your statement Ray... it just triggered the memory of a couple of conversations I have had in the last couple of days... I am reminded of a conversation that I had about non Christians being made to feel like they were worthless as good decent people only because they don't believe in what Christ did for us..... or perhaps not having a belief in one God over all. I know that there will be a lot of Non Christians who make it to a higher level than some of these so called Christians we find in our churches every day. The ones who judge others or turn their back on those who need help the most....because of some "they are beneath us" attitude.... (another conversation)...about how LDS treat others... both outside of the faith...and even those lds members struggling with problems in various ward buildings. How often "worthy" members turn their backs on other members who don't meet their specifications of a "proper" LDS member. Same truths they believe in.... same God, same Jesus, same truth of the restored church of Christ... yet still not one together in the eye's of those "more worthy" Those lds members on the outside looking in at the "in" crowd... those who won't spend the time, the energy or the service on those not in the "in"crowd of the church family..... there are lds members who actually need support after a death in the family.... or severe depression.... or a number of other crisis of things that happen to everyone, and they don't receive it. I'm not saying that every ward is like that.... I just heard some very sad things that happened to family members of a friend I was talking to. And then remembered how hurt another person was when the same thing happened to his family years ago.... consequentially... it drove him and his father away from the church with the anger and hurt for the family to be so ill treated after the death of the mother/wife. Funny thing is...both wards are in Utah ... Guess it's not that funny after all.