Why Does Hell Have To Be Eternal?

[prisonchaplain]

Tommy,

Isn't that what you believe happens when an investigator prays as to whether the Bible is true and how those scriptures should be interpreted, etc?

Quite frankly, we take the inspiration of the Bible for granted. The Word of God shall not return void.

What we encourage "investigators" to do is respond to the sense of conviction the Holy Spirit is communicating to them, and to believe in Jesus and confess their sins. From the point of conversion, belief in the truth of the Bible comes easily, because the same Spirit that brought the conviction inspired the writings.

I believe it is only the "wooing of the Holy Spirit" which can assure me (and all of us) of the truth... although some people do seem to be satisfied by the assurances of other "persons'.

Ray, what do you make of Traveler's emphasis on uniformity, conformity, and authority? He seemed to find this reliance on the sensations of assurance to be too individualistic.

[prisonchaplain]

Truth, What is Truth?

Jesus said, "I am the ... Truth."

[Christos]

<div class='quotemain'>

Truth, What is Truth?

Jesus said, "I am the ... Truth."

What!

I thought it was

Joseph said, "I am the ... Truth."

[Palerider]

[Serg]

Alma said that hell had to be "as eternal as the soul itsef". So in regard to th enature of our soul, in timeless terms, its way of living must be equal. Also, those who will enter Hell for eternity(after resureccion), will do it willingly, this is, opposed to God directly, only sons of perdition will enter here, and they will enter here because they WANT NO part with God, if they had wanted a part, they would have not denied Him, even in His face!. Interesting that the bible, and general doctrine says that the Lord "prepared" hell for those people, (as understood that God CREATED such place for them), but the Book of Mormon says 1 Ne. 15: 35 :" And there is a place prepared, yea, even that awful bhell of which I have spoken, and the devil is the preparator of it; wherefore the final state of the souls of men is to dwell in the kingdom of God, or to be cast out because of that justice of which I have spoken.

One persisting in One's conduct even after judgement:

2 Ne. 9: 16

16 And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal aword•, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy are the edevil and his angels; and they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their gtorment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end.

One agreeing in the judgement:

2 Ne. 9: 46

46 Prepare your souls for that glorious day when ajustice shall be administered unto the righteous, even the day of bjudgment, that ye may not shrink with awful fear; that ye may not remember your awful cguilt• in perfectness, and be constrained to exclaim: Holy, holy are thy judgments, O Lord God Almighty—but I know my guilt; I transgressed thy law, and my transgressions are mine; and the devil hath eobtained me, that I am a prey to his awful misery.

One going to the place CHOSEN(by conduct):

2 Ne. 28: 23

23 Yea, they are grasped with death, and hell; and death, and hell, and the devil, and all that have been seized therewith must stand before the throne of God, and be ajudged according to their works, from whence they must go into the place prepared for them, even a lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.

Maybe this is one side of it, maybe a "middle ground" for this discussion. Or it may open even more doors to the topic, who knows!

Regards

[Serg]

We know from the New Testament that apostles and prophets have been caught up to differing degrees of heaven (seven for example), so there must be divisions of glory and eternal rewards.

We have wandered into an area of speculation, but I believe many Christians could imagine within heaven, varying rewards based on one's faithfulness, sacrifice, obedience, etc.

I don't disagree about guilt being painful. However, I'm trying to ascertain whether you believe hell is physical place, where the suffering will be physical, as well as emotional and spiritual. I don't want to be morbid, but, if hell is real, it is a place to be feared. God is smarter than us, and I fear that sometimes we (and I am lumping all branches of Christianity here) downplay the horror of hell, by describing it in purely emotional, psychological terms: separation from God, a place of guilt and regret, etc.

I gotta go with the old country preachers on this one: hell's hot and heaven's real.

There's a pace forward on tolerance.

And in respect of it being a physical place, indeed it has to be a physical place(or space) in order to be filled with people, but it doesnot have to contain fire, screams, blood, etc..

In fact, it is contraru to the revealed Truth that people after resureccion shuold9or COULD) suffer physical corruption(suffering),

[prisonchaplain]

What! I thought it was: Joseph said, "I am the ... Truth."

No, I believe he said he had rediscovered the Truth.

John 14:6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.KJV

[Ray]

Quite frankly, we take the inspiration of the Bible for granted.

Quite frankly, I believe that is one of the biggest problems for those who don’t but want to know God, because people who will put their trust in the Bible simply because some other people are putting their trust in the Bible don’t have or learn to put their trust in God by gaining a personal witness from Him to assure them that He inspired those people who wrote the Bible, which is the only way they and anyone else can ever learn the truth of anything.

Or in other words, to come at this point from another angle, to take the inspiration of the Bible for granted makes just as much sense as taking the inspiration of the Book of Mormon for granted, or as taking the inspiration of the Doctrine & Covenants for granted, or as taking the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for granted, or as taking the inspiration of Joseph Smith for granted, or as taking the inspiration of Paul for granted, or as taking the inspiration of Peter for granted, or as taking the inspiration of Moses for granted, or as taking the inspiration of Abraham for granted, or of taking the inspiration of you or me or other "religious teachers" for granted, etc, etc, etc… without learning the truth from God concerning whether or not He actually inspired any of those people to speak or write what they said in any of their "talks" or writings.

The Word of God shall not return void.

True. But not everyone who hears the Words of God knows those Words have come from God, even when they can look and see and hear those words come directly from His own lips as they did from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who was and is God Himself, much less from others He inspires to speak or write through the power of the Holy Ghost.

And btw, if you really want to know what He meant, try reading D&C section 1, or again, while trying to listen to God.

What we encourage "investigators" to do is respond to the sense of conviction the Holy Spirit is communicating to them...

Good, because that is the way to learn the truth, but if everyone was actually doing that don’t you think everyone would be in agreement concerning what God is communicating and has already communicated through the power of the Holy Ghost? Clearly there must be some reason why all of “Christendom” is in confusion.

From the point of conversion, belief in the truth of the Bible comes easily, because the same Spirit that brought the conviction inspired the writings.

Yes, but the same Spirit can also give inspiration to others to help them know the truth of ALL things. And even if the Bible was the only collection of writings that were inspired by God, as you and some other “Christians” tell others, why can’t all of “Christendom” come to agreement concerning what those persons who wrote the Bible were actually inspired to write? Or what they actually meant?

Again, clearly there must be some reason why all of “Christendom” is in confusion.

Ray, what do you make of Traveler's emphasis on uniformity, conformity, and authority? He seemed to find this reliance on the sensations of assurance to be too individualistic.

My understanding of what Traveler meant is that those who have ears to hear will hear ALL the words of God, and the reason why some don’t, or why we don’t all agree with each other, is because those who don’t receive ALL the words of God are accepting other sources of information… otherwise everyone, or all individuals, would be “one” in knowing the truth they have learned from ALL of the words of God.

And btw, as I said before, you really don’t need to learn from me, or hear what I have to tell you, because you and me and everyone else should be putting our trust in God…. and the most important message we should be sharing with others should be concerning how to get Faith from God… especially with those who simply "don’t know" how very important that is.

[Guest Monica]

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

"Hell" isnt eternal, being that hell itself is also cast into the lake of fire. However all that, that is evil, wicked, and death itself will cease to exist.

Then we all get to breathe a sigh of relief and live happily ever after! Praise God, amen!

[Serg]

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

"Hell" isnt eternal, being that hell itself is also cast into the lake of fire. However all that, that is evil, wicked, and death itself will cease to exist.

Then we all get to breathe a sigh of relief and live happily ever after! Praise God, amen!

It will "cease" to exist in respect of the home of the Justs, this earth. Furthermore, Wickedness can not cease to exist. Even the wicked ones can not cease to exist. The wicked ones, becasuse they are ETERNAL, and you can not just destroy spiritual matter, or the Intelligence therein, neither did God created it(but that's off topic), and wickedness neither will cease to exist, because as long as there are willing minds(even if they are "just") exists the possibility of option, We believe in a God that is not only GOOD but CHOOSES to be GOOD, because it has come to be He's own nature. Angels, spirits, etc..however, are in proximity to fall away(even us).

Of you who have also participated of the Temple, do you not remember in your endowments the information recieved concerning the Creation? If you remember carefully , you'll find a hint towards the "eternity" that wickedness contains, and the eternal behaviour of the wicked Ones too, the Devil's....No more to tell! hugs

Regards,

[Ray]

Heh, I now see that I neglected to mention the fact that the topic of HELL is in our Topical Guide, and to make this simple for everybody I’m going to post that link right HERE.

And btw, the link to HELL in our Bible Dictionary, which I did give in post #29 on page 2 of this thread, explains that HELL refers to more than one place, or state of being, with the idea of how it will cease to exist.

[Serg]

Speaking of which;

What damage(Luke 12: 5) could satan cause to our resurected bodies even in the "lake of fire", if such bodies are to be eternal and see no corruption ?

any opinions Ray?

[Ray]

I'll recommend that people read what our Lord and His prophets have said in the scriptures as they described how it will feel to suffer the pains of Hell, because they are much more eloquent than I am.

[Christos]

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

"Hell" isnt eternal, being that hell itself is also cast into the lake of fire. However all that, that is evil, wicked, and death itself will cease to exist.

Then we all get to breathe a sigh of relief and live happily ever after! Praise God, amen!

Whether it be Hell or the Lake of Fire, the wicked will cease to exist.

If God does not know you, you do not exist.

[Guest Monica]

It will "cease" to exist in respect of the home of the Justs, this earth. Furthermore, Wickedness can not cease to exist. Even the wicked ones can not cease to exist. The wicked ones, becasuse they are ETERNAL, and you can not just destroy spiritual matter, or the Intelligence therein, neither did God created it(but that's off topic), and wickedness neither will cease to exist, because as long as there are willing minds(even if they are "just") exists the possibility of option, We believe in a God that is not only GOOD but CHOOSES to be GOOD, because it has come to be He's own nature. Angels, spirits, etc..however, are in proximity to fall away(even us).

Of you who have also participated of the Temple, do you not remember in your endowments the information recieved concerning the Creation? If you remember carefully , you'll find a hint towards the "eternity" that wickedness contains, and the eternal behaviour of the wicked Ones too, the Devil's....No more to tell! hugs

Regards,

I agree with Cristos on this.

Psalm 1:6

For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish.

Psalm 9:5

You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked; you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.

Psalm 9:17

The wicked return to the grave, all the nations that forget God.

Psalm 37:38

But all sinners will be destroyed; the future of the wicked will be cut off.

Psalm 92:6 The senseless man does not know, fools do not understand, 7 that though the wicked spring up like grass and all evildoers flourish, they will be forever destroyed.

Psalm 94:23

He will repay them for their sins and destroy them for their wickedness; the LORD our God will destroy them.

Psalm 106:18

Fire blazed among their followers; a flame consumed the wicked.

Proverbs 12:7

Wicked men are overthrown and are no more, but the house of the righteous stands firm.

No one has eternal life without Christ:

Matthew 19:16

[ The Rich Young Man ] Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"

Matthew 19:29

And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

Matthew 25:46

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

John 3:16

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

John 5:24

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:27

Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

John 6:40

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:54

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:68

Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

John 10:28

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

John 12:25

The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

John 17:3

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Galatians 6:8

The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

1 John 3:15

Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

To live eternally you must partake of the tree of life:

Genesis 3:22

And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

Revelation 2:7

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Revelation 22:14

"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.

[prisonchaplain]

Quite frankly, I believe that is one of the biggest problems for those who don’t but want to know God, because people who will put their trust in the Bible simply because some other people are putting their trust in the Bible don’t have or learn to put their trust in God by gaining a personal witness from Him to assure them that He inspired those people who wrote the Bible, which is the only way they and anyone else can ever learn the truth of anything.

Ray, if you've read me carefully, you understand that there definitely is an assurance that comes with salvation. BUT, that assurance is preceeded by a sense of conviction--guilt. Yeah, good old-fashioned guilt. We realize we are sinners, and we sense that God is real. We call out for mercy, relying on the shed blood of Christ Jesus, his Son. We say yes to God's offer of love, and then the ASSURANCE comes. Now that the Spirit of God resides with me, I read the Bible and know it's true. God reveals his truths to me as I read it. I discern truths unredeemed biblical scholars never will.

But, we do not have to pray for an assurance every time we approach the Bible, or learn a new truths. The "yes" and "no" of the Spirit become a natural part of my on-going conversation with God. Some things we "tarry" or wait for--most things God reveals quite readily, with requiring a Q & A session.

Or in other words, to come at this point from another angle, to take the inspiration of the Bible for granted makes just as much sense as taking the inspiration of the Book of Mormon for granted, or as taking the inspiration of the Doctrine & Covenants for granted, or as taking the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for granted, or as taking the inspiration of Joseph Smith for granted, or as taking the inspiration of Paul for granted, or as taking the inspiration of Peter for granted, or as taking the inspiration of Moses for granted, or as taking the inspiration of Abraham for granted, or of taking the inspiration of you or me or other "religious teachers" for granted, etc, etc, etc… without learning the truth from God concerning whether or not He actually inspired any of those people to speak or write what they said in any of their "talks" or writings.

Ray, maybe you're a unique individual. But, I really doubt, for example, that most believers--whether LDS or not, needed to sit down before starting each new biblical book and praying, "Now God, can I trust this one? Is Genesis yours? Okay, Lord. I'm on Exodus now--what about it?" Once you'd received salvation, and embraced the overarching truth of Christ, the rest probably came quite easily.

But not everyone who hears the Words of God knows those Words have come from God, even when they can look and see and hear those words come directly from His own lips as they did from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who was and is God Himself, much less from others He inspires to speak or write through the power of the Holy Ghost.

We have free will, or agency. BUT, the most powerful evangelistic tool available to us is the direct proclammation of the Word of God. That's why most evangelical 'witnessing' literature is packed with Bible verses.

Clearly there must be some reason why all of “Christendom” is in confusion.

We're not in confusion, Ray. We're in love with each other. We fellowship with one another. Do we have perfect unity, even over the minute details. Well, I'd say we're at least as united as are the LDS posters at this site.

Seriously, we see through the glass that is not yet clear. (1 Cor. 13). When Jesus comes, we shall see clearly, fully--and enjoy the natural unity you desire. Human organization can force compliance, but not heart unity.

Yes, but the same Spirit can also give inspiration to others to help them know the truth of ALL things. And even if the Bible was the only collection of writings that were inspired by God, as you and some other “Christians” tell others, why can’t all of “Christendom” come to agreement concerning what those persons who wrote the Bible were actually inspired to write? Or what they actually meant?

Again, clearly there must be some reason why all of “Christendom” is in confusion.

Jesus isn't back yet, okay? Even the New Testament church had disagreements. Paul and Barnabus parted ways, and there was quite a tiff over for a season. The Corinthians did not know they were suppose to expel the member who was having an illicit affair with his stepmother.

I'm sorry church can't be neat and Leave it to Beaver like, for you Ray. Read the advice section of this board. You'll find "uneven" experiences some have had with their bishops. We're not yet perfected, but we're in Christ. We're redeemed. And we're headed in the right direction, praise God!

My understanding of what Traveler meant is that those who have ears to hear will hear ALL the words of God, and the reason why some don’t, or why we don’t all agree with each other, is because those who don’t receive ALL the words of God are accepting other sources of information… otherwise everyone, or all individuals, would be “one” in knowing the truth they have learned from ALL of the words of God.

The reason you have complete doctrinal unity is because when you aren't sure you refer me and others to lds.org for an official answer, and because you've put your trust in a singular organization. And yet, do you have to wear white shirts in Sacrament meetings or not? Depends on the bishop. There is no such thing as total unity, this side of glory.

[Guest MrsS]

The reason you have complete doctrinal unity is because when you aren't sure you refer me and others to lds.org for an official answer, and because you've put your trust in a singular organization. And yet, do you have to wear white shirts in Sacrament meetings or not? Depends on the bishop. There is no such thing as total unity, this side of glory.

<snip> But, we do not have to pray for an assurance every time we approach the Bible, or learn a new truths. The "yes" and "no" of the Spirit become a natural part of my on-going conversation with God. Some things we "tarry" or wait for--most things God reveals quite readily, with requiring a Q & A session.<snip>

I believe that Ray is referring you and others to lds.org NOT because he is unsure, but so that you can read it, so that you can do your own researching and studying.

In my opinion, of the LDS members on this forum, Ray is very secure in his beliefs and has such a strong and wonderful testimony.

Sometimes you Non-LDS are looking for just the easy answers. Or you are just asking questions to stir up a lively conversation. You sometimes refuse to take the answers we give in faith. You don't seem to take those answers, ponder them, pray about them and research them using the research tools that some of us give you. You want the meat, yet you have not yet been able to digest the milk.

When you learned math ~ the teacher taught you how to add and subtract. S/he gave you very simple problems to start out with, to give you the feel of finding the solutions. Then you were given more difficult problems. The teacher didn't provide you with the answers ~ S/he made you figure it out. In essence you were taught to ponder it, work it out so that you LEARNED it. Until you have faith in yourself doing the simple math, you will not be able to understand, accept or do trigonometry. Trigonometry being meat and Add & Subtract being milk.

I see Ray doing the same thing here, basically. In referring you to lds.org, he is telling you where the answers are. Personally, I like to give a bit of the reference answer, and then exactly where at lds.org you can find it.

But I understand what Ray is doing ~ he is saying ~ Here is the entire book, here is the index and the contents ~ Read, study, learn.

So sorry PC, you got that one wrong ~ Those who pass the Sacrament must wear white shirts. THAT does not depend on the Bishop or Branch President. It goes WAY higher than that! The members can wear anything they want to Church. AS long as it is modest. You could be asked to leave if you show up in a swimming suit or an evening gown cut to the crack of your butt. We have female members who wear black slacks, black sneakers and a clean shirt. We also have male members who wear leiderhousen with suspenders, hiking boots, and grey wool stockings(we are in Arizona! not the Swiss Alps). They are clean, modest and most welcome in Church. Lots of our adult new members do not own suits and dresses. We do not chase them away ~ nor do we make them feel less than welcome.

In the Nov 2005 Ensign, the Conference Ensign, there is a picture of the Brethren in Samoa walking to their Meeting House to listen to Conference. They were wearing their traditional sari (?) wrapped around their torso and WHITE SHIRTS and with TIES!! Now, they do not have to wear the white shirts, but as my husband just said to me, he does so out of respect. So I am assuming that these brethren in Samoa are doing it out of respect! You can see this picture by going to lds.org, clicking on Gospel Library, clicking on PDF, then choosing Ensign, 2005, November then going to page: this is what it shows at the bottom of the PDF file ~ Page 63 (65 of 132). BTW, one of those Samoan brethren is wearing a striped dress shirt!

There is unity in the LDS church when it comes to Gospel Doctrine and Gospel Principles. Not when it comes to what each individual member does, thinks, wears or says. We are individuals, God gave us Agency. Jesus Christ died on the cross so that we may have that Agency.

The unity is: No matter which meetinghouse ~ whether it be in Utah, Alaska, Asia, China, Mexico, Samoa or the Caribbean, etc. we are all on the same page in Sunday School, Primary, Young Women, Young Men, Seminary, etc. The Sacrament services are all done the same way, the Sacrament Prayers are exactly the same. We all listen to the same prophets, we are all taught out of the same curriculum. Our Bible, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price are all the same. We abbreviate it and just say Standard Works. Or shorter yet: Scriptures. We should all be on Lesson 16-17 or 18 this Sunday. Depending on whether or not you had Stake Conference, Ward/Branch Conference. We will be on lesson 17. But it is the same lesson 17 the World over in Mormondom.

Same with the LDS Temples, everything is done the same way.

PC, why don't you pray and ask for assurance?

Ray is not the only LDS to do so. I do, my dear Husband does, my sisters do, my brother does, my nieces and nephews do, my Home Teachers, my Bishop, Stake President, etc., etc., etc.

Are you saying that we LDS are so insecure in our faith that we always need the assurance of Heavenly Father?

We are not insecure. At least I am not. I pray to Heavenly Father for the ability to discern what His will is for me at any given instance. Does He want me to bear my testimony to the inactive Sister I have been assigned on my Visiting Teaching route? I pray before we leave and ask Heavenly Father to guide me, in essence I am asking for His assurance that I am walking on the path He wants me to walk on.

We are human, and we know it. We will always need guidance and assurance from Heavenly Father, and quite frankly the only way I know of to ASK for that is through PRAYER!

I most assuredly want the assurance of Heavenly Father when it comes to learning new truths. I want to be sure that these truths come from Him and not from satan. The only way for me to be certain, is to ASK Heavenly Father. Quite frankly the only way I know of to ask Heavenly Father anything is through Prayer.

[Serg]

<div class='quotemain'>

It will "cease" to exist in respect of the home of the Justs, this earth. Furthermore, Wickedness can not cease to exist. Even the wicked ones can not cease to exist. The wicked ones, becasuse they are ETERNAL, and you can not just destroy spiritual matter, or the Intelligence therein, neither did God created it(but that's off topic), and wickedness neither will cease to exist, because as long as there are willing minds(even if they are "just") exists the possibility of option, We believe in a God that is not only GOOD but CHOOSES to be GOOD, because it has come to be He's own nature. Angels, spirits, etc..however, are in proximity to fall away(even us).

Of you who have also participated of the Temple, do you not remember in your endowments the information recieved concerning the Creation? If you remember carefully , you'll find a hint towards the "eternity" that wickedness contains, and the eternal behaviour of the wicked Ones too, the Devil's....No more to tell! hugs

Regards,

I agree with Cristos on this.

Psalm 1:6

For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish.

Psalm 9:5

You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked; you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.

Psalm 9:17

The wicked return to the grave, all the nations that forget God.

Psalm 37:38

But all sinners will be destroyed; the future of the wicked will be cut off.

Psalm 92:6 The senseless man does not know, fools do not understand, 7 that though the wicked spring up like grass and all evildoers flourish, they will be forever destroyed.

Psalm 94:23

He will repay them for their sins and destroy them for their wickedness; the LORD our God will destroy them.

Psalm 106:18

Fire blazed among their followers; a flame consumed the wicked.

Proverbs 12:7

Wicked men are overthrown and are no more, but the house of the righteous stands firm.

No one has eternal life without Christ:

Matthew 19:16

[ The Rich Young Man ] Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"

Matthew 19:29

And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

Matthew 25:46

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

John 3:16

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

John 5:24

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:27

Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

John 6:40

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:54

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:68

Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

John 10:28

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

John 12:25

The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

John 17:3

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Galatians 6:8

The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

1 John 3:15

Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

To live eternally you must partake of the tree of life:

Genesis 3:22

And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

Revelation 2:7

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Revelation 22:14

"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.

There can be a space for God not knowing them, in terms of not having intercourse of any kind with them, BUT, if they will (as the BIBLE SAYS) live forever in the lake of fire, although God will "not know" them, yet He KNOWS where they are, what they do, etc... If something is left out of God's knowledge He is not all knowing. That is a dangerous assertion , and it goes against the biblie it self.

Please!

Why do you always turn this to a "I say" "you say" in respect of the authenticity of the Church!

We are talking about the eternity of hell, and suddenly(AGAIN!) some of you are contending on an "off-topic" issue, revelation, the Church, christians in general, etc...

[Maureen]

#3: The fact that you are still here at LDStalk shows that you either don’t know the truth or don’t know how you can know it, or that you think some of us are speaking the truth and can teach others about how to know it ...

Ray, to assume non-LDS come to this site only for the reasons above seems presumptuous of you. There are many reasons why non-LDS visit this site, and as for me, they are not the reasons you have stated.

If you could be a little more open-minded and realize that what you expect from the non-LDS here will not always come to pass. You want everyone to become Mormon and that’s not going to happen. Not everyone is built for the Mormon Church. No matter how much its right for you Ray, it’s not right for everyone. And there’s nothing on this board in its rules that say, “If you non-LDS don’t join the LDS church, you can’t come to this site.”

If your efforts at sharing your gospel aren’t producing the fruit you want, then maybe you need a different strategy. Maybe you need to have more faith in God, that he has the power and love to seek out mankind to show him the truth. All you can really do is share; you can’t force people to believe what you believe. If your beliefs are true, then have faith in God that he has the power to confirm them to others.

There comes a time when you must accept that others will not accept your beliefs – share what you can and let God do the rest.

M.

[Ray]

So why are you still here, Maureen?

And btw, I never said there aren't some other good reasons, but I still stand by my words above.

We are talking about the eternity of hell, and suddenly(AGAIN!) some of you are contending on an "off-topic" issue, revelation, the Church, christians in general, etc...

I believe those issues are directly related, Serg, because they prevail against the gates of Hell.

Or in other words, we're talking about both sides of the issues that lead to OR away from Hell.

Are you saying that we LDS are so insecure in our faith that we always need the assurance of Heavenly Father?

I don't know if that is what Tommy is saying, but that is what I am saying, because if we ever stop thinking we can live without His assurance (or the assurance all Gods have in common), then we're only relying on our own assurance when we still need to learn from God.

And btw, I would now like to thank you for all your support, and for the pleasure of getting to know you. :)

[Maureen]

So why are you still here, Maureen?

Because I like LDStalk. I've been coming here since I can't remember. I like the topics, I like reading others' opinions and thoughts. There are also some funny people here that make me laugh.

I share what I believe if I'm asked and even if I'm not, but I don't expect everyone to jump on my bandwagon. It's great when new posters show up and add their ideas. I'm definitely not on a quest to make people into 'me'. One of the best parts of living is having choices and choosing things that make us unique. It's interesting to me to try and understand why people choose the things they choose and how similar or different they are compared to mine.

M.

[Ray]

That was a great answer, Maureen, and it’s exactly how I once felt about this site, it's just that you don’t seem to realize that the main reason you keep coming back here while being:

“interested in reading other opinions and thoughts,”

"understanding" why people choose the things they choose”, and

“having choices and choosing things” as people “add their ideas”,

is because you are interested in either accepting some ideas from others who come here or hoping to help others accept your ideas, as you:

share who you are and how you feel and what you believe with everybody here and

gather what you see and believe are the best ideas you can gather from everybody else who is here as they try to do the same thing for you.

Or in other words, you are still here for pretty much the same reason everyone else is still here, which is simply because you are interested in sharing your thoughts and opinions about what you believe is the truth or the best way to be (especially when asked, though sometimes even when not), and gathering some information as people share their ideas to help you know how to be better.

And btw, if you thought I was saying something rude to Tommy, or that I was trying to criticize him for continuing to come back to this website to share his thoughts with us as we share our thoughts with him, you are mistaken.

I was simply saying that once he accepts what some of us are telling him about HOW to know the truth, if he ever does, he will become more like those of us who are sharing our knowledge about HOW to know the truth… which is by not simply accepting what we and other people tell him, but with an assurance from God.

And btw, if you still won’t accept what I and others will tell you, it really won’t be anything new.

Oh, and the reason I don't still feel "that" way anymore about this site is because I would rather learn from the members and apostles and prophets of the Church as they share their knowledge from God, without having to hear and put up with opposing views.

Heh, so now, if I can simply break my addiction to this site, and my desire to help you and all other people, I will no longer come back to visit this site while knowing God doesn't need me to help anybody. And I'm just about to the point where I will feel content with helping the people who are and come near me in my usual and everyday life. :)

[Guest Monica]

There can be a space for God not knowing them, in terms of not having intercourse of any kind with them, BUT, if they will (as the BIBLE SAYS) live forever in the lake of fire, although God will "not know" them, yet He KNOWS where they are, what they do, etc... If something is left out of God's knowledge He is not all knowing. That is a dangerous assertion , and it goes against the biblie it self.

Bible says the only ones tormented forever are the devil, the beast and the false prophet. All others whose names arent in the book of life die in the lake of fire. Its the 2nd death.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

As for not knowing of God, the scriptures say that we all know there is a God. In fact I have never met anyone who didnt know the definition of the word God.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

[Serg]

And death and hell were cast into the "lake of fire."

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the "lake of fire"

A common destiny for them, not separet places. It's jesus wors which describe hell as 'eternal" not ours swettie.

RAY:

Brother, you may not like it, but althouh I get the point you tried to make while saying people nonlds here dont know the treuth, it is indeed presumptuous to say that EVERY non-lds here comes to "learn" the Truth out of our "inspired" lips(letters?). Let them know that we know something else, not IT. If we trace a "gulf" between us christians, although there's a doctrinal gulf, its only gonna make it worse.

And what I said is true, you and prisonchaplain ALWAYS(yes, read it troughly-ALWAYS) turn this into a you say - I say, of the divinity of the church. Yes, you say its "got something to do" as it relates with each concept, etc... But you two have not at all in these posts treated the hell topic as others have tried to do, but rather concetrated on each of you and who had the better argument for disproving each other's 'source' of Truth.

Look, lets keep it simple, if you (or US) want to debate on the divinity of our Church, lets make an entire post on it, but lets keep it to the topic in reference, in this case "hell". It's just a hint, I know you for almost 7-8 months now, and have seen many come and go, you have been a very reasonable guy, and a very faithful one also, lets try do our best to cooperate on the progress of the topics. In fact what is it of "Please"? Long time no see .

regards,

[Ray]

Hi Serg,

You have some misunderstandings about me, and I hope I can help you to see them, but even if you don’t try to understand the words that I'm using as I try to share with you what I'm thinking.

…I get the point you tried to make while saying people nonlds here don’t know the truth

I have never said anything like that, or if I did, it’s not what I meant, because I believe a lot of non-LDS people know some of the truth, just not some of the truths that we [LDS] know.

… it is indeed presumptuous to say that EVERY non-lds here comes to "learn" the Truth out of our "inspired" lips(letters?).

Heh, I have also never said anything like that, or if I did, it’s not what I meant, because I believe the only way for anyone to learn the truth is by receiving their assurances from God… not from us [LDS]… not from anybody other than God… including God’s true prophets and apostles.

Let them know that we know something else, not IT.

What “IT” are you referring to? What are you saying we [LDS] should tell people?

I’ve tried to make a habit of always telling people that the only way to learn the truth is from God… by receiving our assurances (known as Faith) from Him… as God assures us and anyone else of the truth, as conveyed through the power of the Holy Ghost.

If we trace a "gulf" between us christians, although there's a doctrinal gulf, its only gonna make it worse.

Not necessarily, because one of the things that helped me learn the truth as taught from members and missionaries of our Church was hearing them tell me HOW I can know the truth… by receiving my assurances from God… not by accepting what they told me, or even what our prophets and apostles have said, if not accompanied by an assurance from God.

And if anyone else is learning the truth differently, then we should point out that gulf between our understandings…. while telling them they can believe whatever they want or choose to believe, while we rely on our assurances from God.

And what I said is true, you and prisonchaplain ALWAYS(yes, read it truly-ALWAYS) turn this into a “you say - I say” of the divinity of the church.

Again I think you misunderstand me, because I’m not trying to convince anyone about the divinity of the Church. I’m simply trying to tell people HOW we can ALL learn the truth, by receiving our assurances from God.

But yes I do believe that our Church is the true church of Jesus Christ upon this Earth, and the only one with His power and authority, but whenever I say that or share my understanding I ALWAYS share HOW I learned that from God.

Yes, you say its "got something to do" as it relates with each concept, etc... But you two have not at all in these posts treated the hell topic as others have tried to do, but rather concentrated on each of you and who had the better argument for disproving each other's 'source' of Truth.

I have simply shared my testimony, about HOW I know the truth, and what I actually know, and anytime I tell people about anything I know I ALWAYS try to tell them HOW I came to know what I know.

Look, lets keep it simple, if you (or US) want to debate on the divinity of our Church, lets make an entire post on it, but lets keep it to the topic in reference, in this case "hell". It's just a hint, I know you for almost 7-8 months now, and have seen many come and go, you have been a very reasonable guy, and a very faithful one also, lets try do our best to cooperate on the progress of the topics. In fact what is it of "Please"? Long time no see.

I am trying to keep it simple, Serg, by talking about HOW to know the truth, and whenever I add anything that is related to a topic my main topic is always that of Faith.

And btw, I do this because I now understand what our Lord was saying as He told several people that we should talk about Faith and Repentance, while not contending or arguing about our other doctrines, because I now understand that everything else is just “words”, until we know HOW and actually DO receive God’s assurance of the truth.