Masturbation and Dating

[MorningStar]

This is one of my biggest pet peeves - when someone comes on here with this problem, they're doing the right thing in telling their bishop, and then others suggest they lie about it. This is going against church counsel. As it was explained to me, the habit often leads to pornography use, which will just cause him problems when he gets married.

We are expected to have self-control before, during, and after marriage. And to answer another question, no, I don't believe it's acceptable to masturbate and think about your spouse either. That's not intimacy and you will end up justifying it more and more - after a fight, during your wife's annoying time of the month, illness, etc. It is especially important to learn self-control before marriage while keeping in mind that you won't be entitled to sex anytime you want it.

[Gwen]

i don't think anyone should lie to get a recommend. i do think rational thought has to be used when dealing with some things.

does it require confession every time someone masturbates? i can understand habitual issues or progressive issues (that doesn't sound like the situation here). i'm seriously confused now as to what our doctrine is.

it's ok to get married for sex so you "stop" the sin and then go to the temple? we should use prescription drugs for conditions we don't have so we can avoid something god designed us to do? seriously, these are better solutions than a twice a yr release?

i really didn't think twice a yr qualified as need to confess to the bishop. is there any firm, non ambiguous, straight up quote from the handbook or something that says a rare event can't be repented of on your own?

the stuff about how varying the responses from bishops can be is frightening as well. ranging from non action to a full yr of repentance (a full yr is the same as actual intercourse)? does that difference not frighten anyone else? is there firm guidance given in the handbook or training to bishops to cover this topic so that kind of variance doesn't happen.

god's church is supposed to be a church of order, something this simple shouldn't be this confusing.

i've always found this topic to be a mixed one but this thread really surprises/confuses me.

[marshac]

1. Stop confessing this and get the recommend you need

2. Marry a non-mormon

3. Keep looking. There is a Mormon woman out there who either has the same struggle or has a little more understanding of what it is to be a chaste young man.

As much as I hate to say it, there is a fourth option as well- drugs. Plenty of drugs are known for lowering libedo as a side effect- finasteride (used for treating hair loss, and BPH) is one example that comes to mind. I'm not sure if using a drug for that reason would be considered 'cheating' or not... actually, i'm not sure how I feel about it honestly... anyways- just throwing that out there. In the middle ages, some monks used an herbal tea (chaste tree berry) to dampen their sexual urges, so it's not like i'm the first person to suggest using pharmaceutical measures to assist in this area....

Anyways- mixed feelings on option #4...

Edited March 19, 2011 by marshac

[Jackol]

i really didn't think twice a yr qualified as need to confess to the bishop. is there any firm, non ambiguous, straight up quote from the handbook or something that says a rare event can't be repented of on your own?

As far as this point, I know that any time the law of chastity is broken the Bishop must be involved. So that means it doesn't matter if it's once or a 1000 times, the Bishop must always be consulted.

[Gwen]

then why aren't the bishop's given better training for consistent action to take on such matters? the important things are spelled out... so either this one isn't or the bishops aren't following the rules they are given.

i'm seriously trying to understand. in the past the folks that have come here have been ppl with chronic or progressive issues. all this advise given to them i wouldn't really flinch at. just seems like there is no rational perspective being applied.

[Jackol]

then why aren't the bishop's given better training for consistent action to take on such matters? the important things are spelled out... so either this one isn't or the bishops aren't following the rules they are given.

i'm seriously trying to understand. in the past the folks that have come here have been ppl with chronic or progressive issues. all this advise given to them i wouldn't really flinch at. just seems like there is no rational perspective being applied.

Can't answer that for you I have never seen the handbook. I always figured it was up to each individual Bishop to decide what is best for those he has stewardship over.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

As much as I hate to say it, there is a fourth option as well- drugs. Plenty of drugs are known for lowering libedo as a side effect- finasteride (used for treating hair loss, and BPH) is one example that comes to mind. I'm not sure if using a drug for that reason would be considered 'cheating' or not... actually, i'm not sure how I feel about it honestly... anyways- just throwing that out there. In the middle ages, some monks used an herbal tea (chaste tree berry) to dampen their sexual urges, so it's not like i'm the first person to suggest using pharmaceutical measures to assist in this area....

Anyways- mixed feelings on option #4...

I was only offering serious suggestions. Saltpeter wasn't one of them.

[Gwen]

Can't answer that for you I have never seen the handbook. I always figured it was up to each individual Bishop to decide what is best for those he has stewardship over.

if the bishops aren't deciding what is best for you maybe you should ask to see the handbook? i'm not trying to stir trouble, i'm serious. do these bishops that know that you are considering a non temple marriage over their (compared to other bishops) over reaction (for lack of a better term, i'm sure someone can come up with a better one than me)? the whole idea of repentance is to get someone to do better and progress not give up and throw it all away. i don't know.

[marshac]

I was only offering serious suggestions. Saltpeter wasn't one of them.

I was actually being serious. People use drugs all the time to help in behavior modification... smoking cessation, alcohol abuse, etc.

I'm still conflicted about the use of drugs however since "treating" a natural urge wouldn't be good medicine even if the prevailing culture says that the urge is morally wrong. If however there was a legit condition such as depression, selecting an antidepressant with known libido decreasing effects would seem to be legit.

Personally, i'm in awe of the OP that he has been able to hold out for a long as he has on numerous occasions.... and also at his honesty with his bishop despite the cost of that honesty.

[beefche]

then why aren't the bishop's given better training for consistent action to take on such matters? the important things are spelled out... so either this one isn't or the bishops aren't following the rules they are given.

i'm seriously trying to understand. in the past the folks that have come here have been ppl with chronic or progressive issues. all this advise given to them i wouldn't really flinch at. just seems like there is no rational perspective being applied.

First, what kind of guidelines do you mean? Are you looking for something specific in the handbook?

Second, guidelines are that.....guidelines. They aren't rules or laws. The church teaches correct principles and expects the members to seek guidance in following those principles. And that applies to bishops as well as non-bishops. So, for that reason, I don't think it matters to have anything set in writing because we are dealing with 2 individuals (bishop and repentant) who each have access to the Spirit. What may be appropriate for one person, won't be appropriate for another. One bishop's inspiration isn't the same as another bishop's inspiration.

[Gwen]

i know from experience unfortunately not all bishops act on inspiration. maybe i'm just jaded from those experiences and sometimes think further comment from church headquarters can't make things worse.

yes i'm talking about specifics from the handbook or bishop training. as a guideline this behavior starts with x amt of loss of recommend time, this different event starts with x, etc. i'm not saying they should spell every detail out. just a guideline, if it physically involves others or porn or no one or what have you. or if it's more appropriate to base it on how long it's gone on for amt of lost time. something that gives a consistent starting point instead of leaving it random. by giving that guideline it sends a firm message to the bishops that not all violations of the law of chastity are equal and they must seek revelation for the individual situation and not just say "law of chastity = loss of recommend for a yr".

i just see a difference in the kid that goes to the victoria secret website once and confesses vs the married man that looks at hard porn for over a yr before or during confession. i see a difference in the person that masturbates daily for yrs and the folks like the op who can go yrs without and has one slip up. i see a difference in the person that gets caught up in a moment and crosses into petting once and confesses vs the person that says "oh well i've messed up" so they decide to have fun for a few months before talking to the bishop.

our church and doctrines are built on "shades of gray". i find when i talk to other christians that's one of the biggest complaints. the fact that we have to confess some things and not others, the whole idea of degrees of glory after the final judgment. generally they have two options, you get it right or you don't. you are worthy of god's mercy or you aren't. heaven or hell, no in-between.

what does a person do when the bishop isn't looking at shades of gray and seeking inspiration for the individual situation but just treating it all the same? how does the repentant progress if it's the bishop is preventing them? what if the individual is actually getting contrary revelation about the situation? how can a house of order have that kind of discord?

in the end i guess it should be of no concern to me, i'm not the one in the situation. just frustrating to hear of honest ppl losing hope in a process that is supposed to build them up. seems like without distinction you end up just throwing the baby out with the bath water.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

Of course, the easy thing is to go to a different ward, stake, or however one attains the leadership of a different bishop. It's humbling and character building to accept austerity and even injustice with one's current bishop and grow under it. Obedience when circumstances entice rebellion is a sharp rebuke against the forces of darkness. Rewards for such obedience are sure to follow.

[beefche]

yes i'm talking about specifics from the handbook or bishop training. as a guideline this behavior starts with x amt of loss of recommend time, this different event starts with x, etc. i'm not saying they should spell every detail out. just a guideline, if it physically involves others or porn or no one or what have you. or if it's more appropriate to base it on how long it's gone on for amt of lost time. something that gives a consistent starting point instead of leaving it random. by giving that guideline it sends a firm message to the bishops that not all violations of the law of chastity are equal and they must seek revelation for the individual situation and not just say "law of chastity = loss of recommend for a yr".

our church and doctrines are built on "shades of gray". i find when i talk to other christians that's one of the biggest complaints. the fact that we have to confess some things and not others, the whole idea of degrees of glory after the final judgment. generally they have two options, you get it right or you don't. you are worthy of god's mercy or you aren't. heaven or hell, no in-between.

You really think the church should have guidelines on what sin = what punishment? That negates teaching principles and expecting members to exercise the Gift of the Holy Ghost to know what is right for themselves. That negates even the Atonement and puts qualifiers on choices. If someone knows that masturbating 5 times equals excommunication, then they will plan their sins. And perhaps your examples of looking at Victoria's Secret vs. porn are valid, but again, that negates the Atonement and repentance. What if the porn user is truly repentant? There are still consequences to his/her actions, but the Atonement can lessen those consequences. What if the catalog abuser isn't repentant?

Also, bishops are entitled to inspiration and discernment. That doesn't mean that each bishop is perfect in his calling and receives absolute inspiration on all matters. There is growth for them as well. Even Joseph Smith had to learn through his own experiences and mistakes. Why should we expect more from bishops if prophets must go through that process?

I just think having guidelines as you've described sets up abuse and damnation to people and their spiritual progression. There are guidelines given and resources available to know what to do in a situation--doesn't mean mistakes don't happen.

[Anonymouse]

Sorry that I am joining this conversion very late... I couldn't read everything in this thread leading up to this, so the following may be out of place.

As far as I know, it has been said by presiding officers of the church that only habitual sins that you cannot stop and repent of by yourself and other serious sins (murder, sexual relations outside of marriage, etc.) need to be confessed to the bishop.

I believe an apostle said that same thing even for pornography. If it is a one time slip... then you can repent of the sin yourself. If you find yourself with a subsequent addiction to it, then a confession to the bishop must be made.

I don't have specific dates, locations, or names for these quotes. These are just things I remember.

[Gwen]

You really think the church should have guidelines on what sin = what punishment? That negates teaching principles and expecting members to exercise the Gift of the Holy Ghost to know what is right for themselves. That negates even the Atonement and puts qualifiers on choices. If someone knows that masturbating 5 times equals excommunication, then they will plan their sins.

so the unrelenting attitude of "NO MATTER if it's law of chastity related one MUST TALK TO THE BISHOP AND LOSE YOUR RECOMMEND" isn't negating expecting members to use the holy ghost and seek out what is right for themselves? i don't get that. if our doctrine really is we MUST talk to the bishop when sexual functions or feelings are involved then we need guidelines. i don't think that's unrealistic.

letting the member seek their own answer is exactly how i saw this issue before this thread. but that's not what members are saying. if someone masturbates once a yr then why aren't they entitled to pray about that and seek repentance with the lord without involving a bishop if they feel that's what is the right path for them?

ppl can be upset and claim i'm "advocating lying" or "avoiding confession" or whatever you want to call it. but that's not what i'm doing. i'm suggesting really looking at the situation and what the holy ghost says is called for.

how is telling someone that they must talk to the bishop better than my saying "i think only habitual or progressive issues require going to the bishop otherwise work it out for yourself"? i don't think it's as open shut as ppl seem to be saying. i don't think abuse of prescription meds is better than doing your dead level best and if there is a once in a blue moon occasion then repent with god and move on.

it's like we are creating problems where there were none. is it possible that a once a yr issue won't hurt someone as much spiritually long term as the constant obsessing and yr's without going to the temple will?

maybe god would tell one person to talk to the bishop because he knows the bishop can help but not another because he knows the bishop would screw it up. but if ppl on here say "you MUST, NO MATTER WHAT tell the bishop and have your recommend removed" then they are as much guiding them against seeking personal inspiration as i am.... and that mess up could do more damage than good.

it just annoys me when ppl assume just because someone has suggested someone may not need to talk to the bishop that they are teaching contrary to the gospel (seeking personal revelation isn't contrary to the gospel is it?). it's a discussion. maybe the conflicting views on the issue will inspire the person to pray and get their own answer.

there have been times on this site ppl have suggested lying. i don't agree with that. i don't agree with "circumventing" the commandments by "get married so you can get that off the table" type attitude. i'm not suggesting a cavalier attitude about the law of chastity, just some rational thought and true personal inspiration. we don't need a bishop to instruct us in all things. if we are going to be ppl of must talk to the bishop at all times then we do need guidelines so bishops don't screw it up.

this op is very different than the many many porn/masturbation/etc threads we've gotten here. i'm just really shocked that the advise is the same when the situation is very different. i think it could be damaging. either we must talk to the bishop and we need guidelines or the person can seek a personal answer. that's all i'm trying to understand i guess, which is it? i know i'm not doing a very good job of getting to my point or explaining my thinking. i apologize for that.

[JudoMinja]

Gwen--

I see where you are coming from and I think the problem with not confessing sexual sins or transgressions to the bishop is that the lack of confession creates a secret which holds power over the individual. The fact that the individual is not telling the bishop about the sin then makes it harder for him or her to hold herself accountable and temptation pulls even harder to cause the person to slip more and more. Such a sin NEEDS to be confessed to SOMEONE who can help hold the individual accountable and provide guidance for repentance.

Who do we confess such sins to? Telling a friend, family member or neighbor that one has a problem with drinking coffee or shoplifting or some such sin and asking them to help you hold yourself accountable works. But does that work for something like masturbation? Maybe there is some rare case out there where it does, but I would think confessing something like that to an individual who has no purpose knowing anything about your sexual life will only cause problems. Maybe a married couple could confess such things to one another and work it out together without involving a bishop, but that would be really rare too.

The reason sexual sins of any nature, even masturbating once a year, needs to be confessed to a bishop is because he is the steward given guidance by the spirit to help that individual overcome the sin. ALL sins need to be confessed. But not all sins need to be confessed to a bishop. For sins that are only between an individual and the Lord (like masturbation) there needs to be a third party to help overcome the power Satan holds on secrets.

[Gwen]

i understand the power keeping a secret holds. i understand the therapeutic and repentance need to share the issue with someone (bishop). i agree completely when it's a "problem". i really do agree with you....

my issue is i don't see a slip up with masturbation once a yr as a "problem". it's a mistake. the desire isn't a sin. the thinking about it on occasion isn't a sin. the desire for sexual release and even the physical need for it was god given. being human and having a libido isn't a sin. so the op doesn't have a problem. he sounds like he does very well managing the normal god given urges he has. but yes he sometimes makes a mistake.

it sounds like (and maybe i'm seeing something that isn't there, just what i see in the posts) the "problem" he's having is when he slips up instead of addressing it with god and forgetting about it and moving on for the next yr or more, he's telling a bishop that has no guidelines. so his recommend is taken for a full yr (which means instead of forgetting he remembers every detail, date, etc), he feels worse about himself instead of healing, he's dismissed by potential partners so he will take even longer to get married (making him feel more stressed and the obsession is making the desire to masturbate greater), and the cycle continues. his problem isn't his libido, it's over reacting to a mistake. seems like a problem is being created instead of dealing with an existing one.

i don't disagree with how to address the problem of masturbation. i disagree as to when it is declared a problem and how to address the event of masturbation when it's not a problem.

[sky7]

Hi Jackol. I am a female but I do struggle with masturbation as well. I understand how hard it is to change our behaviors sometimes. But I would like to assure you that there are many men and women out there (in the church) who are going through the same challenges as you are. You are not alone. At the same time, it is so frustrating to have this struggle. I have also tried various things to overcome this problem. 12 steps can work for some, but not for all. Prayers work, but I know that you have been trying it so hard. I have few suggestions and maybe you can see if any of them work for you.

There is a group called "Heart 'N Heart" it's a online 12 steps support group. It's pretty good. And they have a book called "Clean hands and pure heart" This book so far is the best 12step book on the subject of porn/masturbation addiction. You might want to check that out. You can buy it online I believe. Another suggestion is the online course for overcoming unwanted sexual behaviors called "Candeo." I'm currently using it and I think it is very good program. It is based on the latest brain science and very practical. As for me, doing 12 steps and Candeo are the best combination. Help from God while utilizing the human wisdom available at this time:)

I hope my suggestion was somewhat helpful for you. But I just want to let you know that I do understand how hard it is to deal with the struggles (although I'm a female). I often feel I am unworthy to be loved by men. And I feel like it is so taboo for women to struggle with this problem in the church, since we are often portrayed as "holy" when it comes to sexual struggles. It makes me feel like I am not a desirable women for men in the church. But I don't think that's what God wants me to view myself. I believe that I have this struggle to learn something from it and grow. And I do know, with all my heart, that Heavenly Father and Jesus love me. They have been extremely merciful and kind to me. How grateful I am for their love.

Jackol, you are a great person who is trying and striving to be better. I know that Heavenly Father is very proud of you for your efforts. And He does understand how hard it is for you to deal with this. He is the Creator of all things. He knows how hard this temptation is for you (and for me). Please remember that you are a beloved son of God and great blessings are awaiting for you!! And I would like to assure you that there are women out there who will love and accept for who you are regardless your struggles. As long as you are trying to be better, there is a way. And I have faith that you will find a wonderful person who will love and accept for who you are. And I also have faith in you (and in myself) that you (and I) will overcome this struggle with help with God:)!

[crashdown]

Jackol, Sky7, hello! I am a married woman and I struggle with this also. I absolutely HATE it!!! I have tried dealing with it on my own, setting goals, fasting and prayer, scripture study, etc., but to no avail. I have confessed it to my hubby, but he is turned on by it and that doesn't help at all.

I have tried making a psychological connection as to why I do it. Is it because I am lonely, emotionally upset, depressed? What am I feeling when I am tempted? Is it a symptom of something else? I don't know, but I have discovered that I am usually tempted when I am emotionally upset or tired. So I try to be extra vigilant during those times, but it doesn't always work.

I have also wondered if it is biochemical. I have studied the effects of beta-endorphins on the body and I know that sex raises beta-endorphins. So I have wondered if my body doesn't produce enough beta-endorphins and this is my body's way of getting the needed endorphins. I don't know.

I do know for sure that, for me, it is has absolutely nothing to do with sex. It is something else, hence the psychology/biochemical stuff.

And Jackol, I do understand your concerns about the temple recommend thing. I haven't dared renew mine since I began having this problem because I don't feel worthy to have one. But I have wondered......could getting a recommend (assuming I could qualify for one) and attending the temple regularly provide the HELP needed to overcome the problem?

I am grateful to you, Jackol, for being brave and coming forward about this. You are definitely not alone!! Thank you, Sky7, for the recommendations. I will be checking those out for sure.

[SaturdayLove]

I think all you can do is do your best. But jeeze man, 31... it's time to find an eternal companion!

Ooooh an older man!!!

Hey I'll Marry you... lol

I have no real good advice but I guess since I read all that you have to say...

my suggestion is to pray alot.. more than you do now!! especially when you're about to touch your self...

[MrBallroom]

JudoMinja:

The issue with telling someone—including a priesthood leader—is first determining the level of trust a repentant person has with that particular priesthood leader. Before that can occur, one has to determine whether or not to even go to their bishop.

If a sin is solely between two people and is not serious in nature, then two reasonable adults can and should be able to resolve it amicably on their own, without involving the bishop, whose primary focus should be on keeping the youth focused and worthy for the blessings of missions and the temple.

I know some people in one part of the country who have fantastic bishops and stake presidents in whom they can place substantial trust, and if there were a problem in their lives, they instinctively know who to call first. On the other hand, in some other parts of the country, I know some people, both male and female as well, who, regardless of the sin in which they found themselves involved—including serial adultery—would NEVER go to their priesthood leaders. Why?

Simply put, it was because past experiences with bishops and/or stake presidents have been so horrific, and whose trust has been so completely and egregiously violated by uninspired and unqualified men who had no business ever being either ordained or set apart in sacred priesthood offices these people saw desecrated and/or defiled on a daily basis by these abusive men, that they basically put their repentance in a drawer and let time do a large part of the healing without opportunists either running interference, running persecution, or just outright harassing and intimidating good people in the name of spiritual abuse.

Long story short: Trust in the Lord, trust your instincts, and if one DOES need to see their Bishop, they will know in their heart and in their mind when THAT time is right…usually after offending priesthood leaders are rotated out to pasture. And when that time comes, there will be an HONORABLE, decent and LEGITIMATE servant of the Lord, who like the Savior Himself, that will be there with outstretched arms to welcome home the lost and wayward seeking to find their home among the ethical, honorable, humble and repentant Children of the Lord. ***

Edited April 3, 2011 by MrBallroom
Updated and modified for spelling and grammar.

[roundandround]

there are women out there that understand. believe me! i've heard nothing but good things about the church run 12 step program. i was going to check it out myself. my bishop told me that it's helpful in many different aspect of our lives, and he's sent people for other reasons than things like drugs or sexual sins.

i'm about your age and my marriage is over. i actually had a very good heart to heart with my bishop about such things. my sex life wasn't the best while married, but i wasn't sure what to do with myself when all was said and done. it took awhile to actually accept the idea of no more physical releases...... maybe forever. so, you're not alone in your plight. i believe for some people it's easier than others to not want that release. it definitely becomes mind over matter. my advice would be what you're currently doing. pray, read scriptures, stay active. maybe as the nights get worse, try a unisom or tylenol PM? and i think the advice of meeting someone who is a member but understands where you are, is not such bad advice. a civil ceremony and then work together towards a temple sealing.... it's not such a bad idea really.

i do have to say, if you're able to resist those urges for months upon months, you're doing better than most men out there. AND if you aren't looking at ANY porn at all. you're doing great in my book. i have learned that way too many men in this world look at porn. it really has me on edge when it comes to trusting men at all. it's a sore spot for me.....

good luck!!

[CoinPurse]

I have the same problem as you, only difference is I'm female.

I don't have any wonderful advice for you since I'm in the same position but just remember so many people have the problem you do, don't feel alone or feel like a bad person! Remember Heavenly Father loves you even when you slip up and understands you will make mistakes. I think you are doing a very good job trying your hardest. You're human, striving to be our best is the best we can do...

This is something you can and will overcome somehow, I wish you the best and I hope everything works out for you.

:)

[Mudwyn1]

nice, funny !!