Entry Into The Celestial Kingdom

[prisonchaplain]

Quite often I'm challenged by LDS with the question: What do you think I have to do to be 'saved'? My answer--the answer most evangelicals see in the Bible--Admit you're a sinner, Believe in Jesus, Confess your sins. Inevitably, the response is, "Well, I've done all that, so I'm good to go, according to you, right?" And, indeed, Barna Polling recently came out with the surprising statistic that 44% of LDS, when asked a series of theological questions, would indeed fit the evangelical definition of being "born again." (What's up with the other 56% ).

So, now let's go at the question in reverse. Here's my situation:

1. I've done the ABCs.

2. Although my faith group does not believe water baptism is a prerequisite of salvation, I have indeed received this ordinance, by full immersion.

3. I've received the gift of the Holy Ghost with the laying on of hands.

4. For the sake of this discussion, assume I'm sincere in all these things, and that I am in an on-going relationship with the Master, including regular prayer, Bible study, church fellowship, full-tithe support, donations for missions projects, and that I respond positively and eagerly to any calls I receive from my church.

5. For the sake of discussion, let's assume I stay true, and 'endure to the end,' in my testimony, faith and practice.

So--am I good to go? Will I likely gain entrance into the Celestial Kingdom?

[Guest MrsS]

<<snip>> 5. For the sake of discussion, let's assume I stay true, and 'endure to the end,' in my testimony, faith and practice. So--am I good to go? Will I likely gain entrance into the Celestial Kingdom?

Were you baptized by one with the priesthood keys authorized and bestowed by Jesus?, were the men who laid hands on you to bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost holders of the Priesthood authorized and bestowed by Jesus? Have you and your wife received your Endowments? Are you sealed to your wife and children for Time and All Eternity? When you received your Endowments and were sealed was it in one of Our Lords Dedicated Temples, and the work performed by a priesthood holder? If so, then yes, as long as you and your wife live up to your covenants with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, until you pass from this mortal world into the Spirit world, you are good to go. Hopefully to the Celestial Kingdom, if not, then the Telestial or Terrestrial Kingdoms. All three are glorious.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

...assume I stay true, and 'endure to the end,' in my testimony, faith and practice...[will] I likely gain entrance into the Celestial Kingdom?

Let's say you have the chance to study the restored gospel (read Book of Mormon, missionary discussions, etc...) and pray about it. If you receive a witness of its truth and still are not baptized, I don't think you'd be admitted to the Celestial Kingdom.

True ordinances must be performed, by true authority from God. I know you're familiar with all this, so I wonder what the real question you have is? Here is a list, in case you've never seen it broken down simply, of what qualifies someone for exaltation in the highest degree of the Celestial Glory. All ordinances are assumed to be performed by valid priesthood authority.

(1) Have a mighty change of heart (change in thoughts and desires);

(2) Faith and repentance;

(3) Baptism by immersion;

(4) Receipt of the Holy Ghost;

(5) For men, receive Melchizedek Priesthood;

(6) For men and women, receive temple initiatory and endowment;

(7) For those who marry, be married eternally in the temple;

(8) Keep covenants, endure to the end (serve where called, love others).

[Christos]

What does it take to be born again?

First of all, the Grace of God!

Secondly, the Grace of God!

Thirdly, the Grace of God!

I hope you have understood that this is the greatest requirement. We are all sinners, regardless of how perfect some of us may appear to others. Remember the story of the Pharisee and the Publican?

You must be humbled to the Lord. You must accept that in your own power, you can accomplish nothing. You are the creature, not the creator.

You must be Baptised in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Repent for your sins! Remeber, our God is a merciful God. Lord have Mercy upon me!

Again, humble yourself in God.

If you truely believe in Jesus as the Messiah and God as the Trinity of The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, then you shall (in God's Mercy) be accepted into the Heavenly Kingdom of which there is no higher. Excelsis!

(1) Have a mighty change of heart (change in thoughts and desires);

This comes with prayer, humility and penitence....not overnight.

I am still on a very bumpy journey of which I see no foreseeable end.

In the words of Pope Benedict XVI (I am not R.C.) "I am a humble worker in the Lord's Vineyard"

[prisonchaplain]

I am reformatting MrsS' post, so the questions are enumerated. Also, if I'm understanding correctly, the questions also represent prerequisites for entry into the Celestial Kingdom.

1. Were you baptized by one with the priesthood keys authorized and bestowed by Jesus?

2. Were the men who laid hands on you to bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost holders of the Priesthood authorized and bestowed by Jesus?

3. Have you and your wife received your Endowments?

4. Are you sealed to your wife and children for Time and All Eternity?

5. When you received your Endowments and were sealed was it in one of Our Lords Dedicated Temples, and the work performed by a priesthood holder?

If so, then yes, as long as you and your wife live up to your covenants with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, until you pass from this mortal world into the Spirit world, you are good to go.

Just to be clear, today, those priesthood key holders, those Priesthood holders, the location and grantor of Endowments, those who perform the sealings, and those who control our Lord's dedicated temples--all of these can only be found with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Furthermore, according to an LDS poster at another forum (hannity.com, Re: Mormonism), true heaven to LDS is the Celestial Kingdom. So, basically, entry into heaven requires active, obedient membership in the LDS Church.

Yes, I know--others can get into the other heavenly kingdoms. However, the presence of the Heavenly Father is not in those. Active Mormons would not seek to get into those. Again, true heaven would be the Celestial Kingdom.

If so, this is the bottom-line reason non-LDS Christians struggle so with your church. You say, "Hey, we're Christians too." Then, we get the bottom line: In this age, unless you've got some powerful mitigating circumstances, our church is the only sure way into that heavenly kingdom in which the presence of the Father resides.

Hopefully to the Celestial Kingdom, if not, then the Telestial or Terrestrial Kingdoms. All three are glorious.

Those other two kingdoms might be "glorious," but the Heavenly Father's presence is not there, and active Mormons would not aim to enter them.

[prisonchaplain]

Let's say you have the chance to study the restored gospel (read Book of Mormon, missionary discussions, etc...) and pray about it. If you receive a witness of its truth and still are not baptized, I don't think you'd be admitted to the Celestial Kingdom.

I guess my question would be "why?" Is there a doctrinal test for entry into the Celestial Kingdom? Is the formula of Admit I'm a Sinner, Believe Jesus, Confess my sins, and, of course, subsequent to conversion, enduring to the end, not sufficient? Is there really only one organization that serves as gatekeeper to the highest heaven?

True ordinances must be performed, by true authority from God. I know you're familiar with all this, so I wonder what the real question you have is?

We've hinted around about these issues, but not in this context. So, no--I've never seen a clearly dilineated list of the minimum requirements for entry into the Celestial Kingdom.

Here is a list, in case you've never seen it broken down simply, of what qualifies someone for exaltation in the highest degree of the Celestial Glory. All ordinances are assumed to be performed by valid priesthood authority.

(1) Have a mighty change of heart (change in thoughts and desires);

(2) Faith and repentance;

(3) Baptism by immersion;

(4) Receipt of the Holy Ghost;

(5) For men, receive Melchizedek Priesthood;

(6) For men and women, receive temple initiatory and endowment;

(7) For those who marry, be married eternally in the temple;

(8) Keep covenants, endure to the end (serve where called, love others).

Ironically, this list looks similar to a list of sacraments the Catholic Church has. The difference is, if I'm not mistaken, Catholics say that non-Catholic Christians may also enter heaven. If I see this list correctly, it will be nearly impossible for non-LDS Christians who've had exposure to the beliefs to enter the Celestial Kingdom, short of conversion to the Church.

Bottom-line: Oldtimer (an LDS teacher who posts at hannity.com re: Mormonism) tells me Mormons essentially only view the Celestial Kingdom as truly heaven, since only there does the Heavenly Father reside. If so, are LDS, on the one hand complaining that other Christians falsely accuse them of not being part of the family, and on the other hand saying that all non-LDS Christians really don't belong in the family. In otherwords "Us too--and not you."

[BenRaines]

PC, there are many God obeying non LDS that will find themselves worthy to enter in to the Celestial Kingdom after all they have done in this life. I believe that we will find more non LDS there than LDS there who did not have the opportunity to accept the gospel in this life who when they have it preached to them in the spirit world will accept.

My understand that qualifying as having heard it in this life and rejecting it has to do with having Holy Ghost witness to you that it is true and then rejecting it. Having the missionaries knock on your door and you turn them away or offer them a drink but say no thank you I am not interested does not meet the requirement of hearing the gospel and rejecting it in this life.

Ben Raines

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Is there really only one organization that serves as gatekeeper to the highest heaven?

I believe Jesus told Joseph Smith the answer to that question in 1820 (First Vision) and again in 1830 (formal organization of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints). If you're looking for me to try to prove this, I'm not going to. It's a matter of spiritual assurance, witness, testimony and belief. The Book of Mormon really is the best witness for or against such beliefs. Read it. Pray about it. It's true. Seek spiritual guidance in deciding for yourself. :)

If I see this list correctly, it will be nearly impossible for non-LDS Christians who've had exposure to the beliefs to enter the Celestial Kingdom, short of conversion to the Church.

Now you can understand our zeal for missionary work and sharing what we have. :)

...are LDS...complaining that other Christians falsely accuse them of...[not being Christian]...and on the other hand say...all non-LDS Christians really don't belong in the family[?]

Nope. We're saying that if a Christian is someone who believes Jesus is the Son of God who died to save sinners, we are Christians. We're not saying you have to be LDS to be Christian. It's one thing to say you don't believe in Jesus, and another to say Jesus has authorized one church on earth to represent him and his authority.

[prisonchaplain]

PC, there are many God obeying non LDS that will find themselves worthy to enter in to the Celestial Kingdom after all they have done in this life. I believe that we will find more non LDS there than LDS there who did not have the opportunity to accept the gospel in this life who when they have it preached to them in the spirit world will accept.

At this point I'm trying to get the bottom line (how American of me, I know!). Ben is saying that so many in the Celestial Kingdom will be those who were not LDS in their earthly lifetimes (assuming they did not have an opportunity to hear).

The key--and this is the big "We're not harsh here--we work hard so all have a chance"--is that those who are have died, and receive the baptism for the dead, will be able to embrace "the gospel," and enter the Celestial Kingdom.

Another clarification: "The Gospel" is not ADMIT, BELIEVE, CONFESS (Jesus). It is the LDS Restoration:

(1) Have a mighty change of heart (change in thoughts and desires);

(2) Faith and repentance;

(3) Baptism by immersion;

(4) Receipt of the Holy Ghost;

(5) For men, receive Melchizedek Priesthood;

(6) For men and women, receive temple initiatory and endowment;

(7) For those who marry, be married eternally in the temple;

(8) Keep covenants, endure to the end (serve where called, love others).

My understand that qualifying as having heard it in this life and rejecting it has to do with having Holy Ghost witness to you that it is true and then rejecting it. Having the missionaries knock on your door and you turn them away or offer them a drink but say no thank you I am not interested does not meet the requirement of hearing the gospel and rejecting it in this life.

If so, is it at least fair to say, in the end, Mormon soteriology (salvation teaching) is very sacramental (in the same manner as Catholics, who teach that salvation is communicated and received via the sacraments)? As for who has heard and understood, the whole issue is mostly speculative in all Christian communities, imho. My bottom-line--and my guess is that most LDS would agree--is that God is just, and nobody will question his judgments.

[prisonchaplain]

I believe Jesus told Joseph Smith the answer to that question in 1820 (First Vision) and again in 1830 (formal organization of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints). If you're looking for me to try to prove this, I'm not going to. It's a matter of spiritual assurance, witness, testimony and belief. The Book of Mormon really is the best witness for or against such beliefs. Read it. Pray about it. It's true. Seek spiritual guidance in deciding for yourself. :)

I appreciate this straightforward answer. Until Vatican II, the Roman Catholic Church proclaimed similar beliefs. Their stance has softened considerably, but I do recognize that the LDS is not the first Church to proclaim itself a sole holder of keys.

Now you can understand our zeal for missionary work and sharing what we have. :)

Again, a direct, yet positive answer. Thank you.

Nope. We're saying that if a Christian is someone who believes Jesus is the Son of God who died to save sinners, we are Christians. We're not saying you have to be LDS to be Christian. It's one thing to say you don't believe in Jesus, and another to say Jesus has authorized one church on earth to represent him and his authority.

And this is where consternation and misunderstanding brew between LDS and the rest of us.

IMHO all true Christians will enter God's best heavenly kingdom. And a non-true Christian is simply not a Christian. So, doing away with the adjectives, whatever a Christian is--it is someone who will indeed spend forever in the presence of the Heavenly Father, because of faith in his Son Jesus (the Christ).

My point: If the definition you are using above "believes Jesus = Son of God who died to save sinners" is NOT enough to get one into the eternal presence of the Heavenly Father, then it's a misleading definition. Far better to just frankly say that a Christian is one who:

(1) Have a mighty change of heart (change in thoughts and desires);

(2) Faith and repentance;

(3) Baptism by immersion;

(4) Receipt of the Holy Ghost;

(5) For men, receive Melchizedek Priesthood;

(6) For men and women, receive temple initiatory and endowment;

(7) For those who marry, be married eternally in the temple;

(8) Keep covenants, endure to the end (serve where called, love others).

Granted, it may not be quite as nice. However, such an approach is more honest, clear, and can be mitigated sufficiently to take the edge off.

For example, "My dear evangelical friend, yes yes, of course we share a common Christian heritage. However, along the way, the churches went astray, and lost key truths and practices. God has restored those practices in our church, and we encourage you to come and taste--and see that His gospel is good."

Maybe I should have gone into advertising?

Message to all: This particular string has really clarified some LDS teachings for me. Many thanks to all who've contributed. I am getting to the point where the primary text will need to be tackled.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

So, doing away with the adjectives, whatever a Christian is--it is someone who will indeed spend forever in the presence of the Heavenly Father, because of faith in his Son Jesus (the Christ).

This is where I was confused. I always thought most people used the term Christian to refer to someone who believed in Jesus as Savior; I didn't know you also meant someone who will dwell with God in the next life. I understand now.

For example, "My dear evangelical friend, yes yes, of course we share a common Christian heritage. However, along the way, the churches went astray, and lost key truths and practices. God has restored those practices in our church, and we encourage you to come and taste--and see that His gospel is good."

I'm afraid I used many, many more words in an attempt to say just that. Your quote above proves Shakespeare was right: Brevity is the soul of wit. :)

I am getting to the point where the primary text will need to be tackled.

I take that to mean reading the Book of Mormon? If so, I'm glad. I have a feeling you'll find that it's witness is strikingly familiar...and true. :)

[BenRaines]

PC, I agree that Christ's judgement is the only judgement that will matter. He is the mediator before the Father in our behalf.

I hope that when you read the Book of Mormon you do it looking for spiritual insight and not to see how it can be torn apart. I can assure you that if you look with a desire to know spiritual things you will find them.

Ben Raines

[prisonchaplain]

This is where I was confused. I always thought most people used the term Christian to refer to someone who believed in Jesus as Savior; I didn't know you also meant someone who will dwell with God in the next life. I understand now.

Well, you were half right. We do believe the term "Christian" refers to someone who believes in Jesus as Saviour. However, we also believe that such faith is sufficient for entry into eternity with God.

Now, if someone believes in Jesus as Savior--but does not believe that his/her faith is sufficient--that works must also be done to earn the salvation--we would label such beliefs heterodox (unacceptable).

I'm afraid I used many, many more words in an attempt to say just that. Your quote above proves Shakespeare was right: Brevity is the soul of wit. :)

I'm not suggesting that such an approach will necessarily garner more souls, but it will clear up some of the confusion that exists between the LDS Church and the rest of us.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

I'm not suggesting that such an approach will necessarily garner more souls, but it will clear up some of the confusion that exists between the LDS Church and the rest of us.

Agreed.

[prisonchaplain]

I hope that when you read the Book of Mormon you do it looking for spiritual insight and not to see how it can be torn apart. I can assure you that if you look with a desire to know spiritual things you will find them.

I'll read it with care and with a mind to get the big picture, and with anointing from the Holy Spirit.

[Ray]

Quite often I'm challenged by LDS with the question: What do you think I have to do to be 'saved'? My answer--the answer most evangelicals see in the Bible--Admit you're a sinner, Believe in Jesus, Confess your sins. Inevitably, the response is, "Well, I've done all that, so I'm good to go, according to you, right?" And, indeed, Barna Polling recently came out with the surprising statistic that 44% of LDS, when asked a series of theological questions, would indeed fit the evangelical definition of being "born again." (What's up with the other 56% ).

My guess is that it would have something to do with the words used in the questions of that poll and the idea that we [LDS] believe there is more to attaining our salvation than what you said, or the way you said what you said, in your short little statement above.

For instance, I have trouble with the idea that I and everyone else should believe we are “sinners”, even when we already know we’re not perfect and never have claimed to be.

Or in other words, it seems to me that some of us (of all people on Earth) make a point out of using the word “sinner” to try to make others feel as if they should be groveling on the ground while pleading to God for mercy for every “wrong” thing they have done, instead of simply trying to help them realize that we ALL need divine help and guidance to be able to become as totally perfect as God is and wants us to be.

Anyway, that’s my version of what it means to “Admit we are “sinners”, and I prefer positive over negative ideas, but I do agree we all need to know we are not totally perfect like God.

From there it’s simply a matter of being informed that divine help is available, through the power of the atonement of Jesus Christ, which means more than simply “believing in Him” because we also need to do what He tells us.

And then from there, once we see we need help to become as perfect as God is and that help is available through Jesus Christ, we need to know that whenever we make a mistake while trying to become perfect we then simply need to Repent, which, again, means more than simply saying we need to “confess our sins” as if confessing our wrongs has any power to help us do anything better.

And that’s basically it: the plan of salvation in a nutshell, because that includes all of the knowledge we need, but we must also try to apply that knowledge or the knowledge itself won’t help us.

And just in case it might help if I go over this again while trying to elaborate a little more, I’ll try to go over this again while trying to point out all of the steps as simply as I know how to do that right now.

#1: Have Faith that there is a God in heaven, the most perfect being in all of existence.

#2: Have Faith that Jesus Christ was sent by God to help us all become perfect.

#3: Have Faith that God can assure us concerning everything God wants us to know and do as we seek perfection through Jesus Christ.

#4: Have Faith that as we know and do what God wants us to know and do it will please God to know us and help us become as perfect as God is.

#5: Have Faith that Jesus Christ can forgive all our “sins” as long as we sincerely Repent.

#6: Keep striving to become as perfect as God is no matter how long it may take us.

#7: Enter the kingdom that is prepared for us where God will then tell us, “Well done”.

And btw, the plan of salvation must necessarily include everything we need to know and do to achieve or attain salvation, including every step we must know to take before our salvation is granted by God… so not until we know and do everything necessary can we say we have totally made it.

For instance, if we need to be baptized by someone who has been authorized by God to baptize us, we can know we need to do that through the Faith God can give or has given us to know that. But even after we have been baptized it won’t mean we have achieved our total salvation.

And if we need to receive other ordinances, either in a chapel or in a temple God has authorized people on Earth to build, in which we can know and do those things, we can know we need to receive those ordinances through the Faith God can give or has given us to know that. But, again, even after we have received all of those ordinances we still have not totally made it.

And one more thing. God can assure anyone of any truth at any time, so if you don’t get your assurance from God TODAY, or during your days of probation, after you’ve been told that you can get an assurance or assurances from God, as you have been told by us, Tommy, then it won’t be anyone’s fault but your own if you never accept what you could have received by simply receiving your assurances from God instead of what some others have told you.

And one more thing. Contrary to what one or more persons have said in this thread, the only people who will be able to attain the Celestial kingdom by accepting the gospel after their mortal days of probation are and will be those who did not hear what you've now heard by hearing us tell you HOW you can know the truth… so if you don’t receive your assurances from God during your mortal days of probation (which could be cut short at any moment), now that you've heard us tell you HOW you can know the truth, you will then be among those who are or were deceived by Satan and the craftiness of men instead of accepting the truth through Faith in this life, and you will not be classed among those who relied upon Faith from God to assure them of what is really the truth.

[Ray]

Message to all: This particular string has really clarified some LDS teachings for me. Many thanks to all who've contributed. I am getting to the point where the primary text will need to be tackled.

That's good to hear. But even if you come to the point of knowing that our "primary texts" were written by prophets of God who wrote as they were inspired to know things God revealed to them, it will not be enough to totally prepare you for actually living with God... unless you actually live by every word God reveals to you. :)

[Traveler]

Quite often I'm challenged by LDS with the question: What do you think I have to do to be 'saved'? My answer--the answer most evangelicals see in the Bible--Admit you're a sinner, Believe in Jesus, Confess your sins. Inevitably, the response is, "Well, I've done all that, so I'm good to go, according to you, right?" And, indeed, Barna Polling recently came out with the surprising statistic that 44% of LDS, when asked a series of theological questions, would indeed fit the evangelical definition of being "born again." (What's up with the other 56% ).

So, now let's go at the question in reverse. Here's my situation:

1. I've done the ABCs.

2. Although my faith group does not believe water baptism is a prerequisite of salvation, I have indeed received this ordinance, by full immersion.

3. I've received the gift of the Holy Ghost with the laying on of hands.

4. For the sake of this discussion, assume I'm sincere in all these things, and that I am in an on-going relationship with the Master, including regular prayer, Bible study, church fellowship, full-tithe support, donations for missions projects, and that I respond positively and eagerly to any calls I receive from my church.

5. For the sake of discussion, let's assume I stay true, and 'endure to the end,' in my testimony, faith and practice.

So--am I good to go? Will I likely gain entrance into the Celestial Kingdom?

Hello again my friend. Some of the things you describe are in line with our understanding of being "born again". The term "born again" is a most interesting term, especially to us LDS. Born again of what? It is necessary in LDS thought that we believe we can be born again of G-d. Now some have a hard time with the extent of this concept and say that if you are born as man stuff you can never be G-d stuff. This would exclude someone from being happy in the Celestial Kingdom but with this kind of thinking one can happily being saved in the Telestial Kingdom and receive all the blessing they hope for in the salvation they seek (excluding the G-d stuff that they may not really desire for what ever reason they do not desire that which is G-dly).

The Traveler

[pushka]

And one more thing. Contrary to what one or more persons have said in this thread, the only people who will be able to attain the Celestial kingdom by accepting the gospel after their mortal days of probation are and will be those who did not hear what you've now heard by hearing us tell you HOW you can know the truth… so if you don’t receive your assurances from God during your mortal days of probation (which could be cut short at any moment), now that you've heard us tell you HOW you can know the truth, you will then be among those who are or were deceived by Satan and the craftiness of men instead of accepting the truth through Faith in this life, and you will not be classed among those who relied upon Faith from God to assure them of what is really the truth.

Ray, please could you clarify this last paragraph for me, I may be reading it wrong or being a little dim. Are you saying that if PC was killed tomorrow, whilst still investigating the Church's beliefs, although not having had the chance to read the BOM in full and come to a decision on whether or not he believes in and is going to be Baptised into the LDS church, he will not have a 2nd chance at hearing the Gospel according to the LDS when he dies, because he wasn't quick enough? Would that apply to all people investigating or hearing from members of the LDS church about their beliefs who were killed before deciding whether or not to accept it too?

[prisonchaplain]

Now some have a hard time with the extent of this concept and say that if you are born as man stuff you can never be G-d stuff. This would exclude someone from being happy in the Celestial Kingdom but with this kind of thinking one can happily being saved in the Telestial Kingdom and receive all the blessing they hope for in the salvation they seek (excluding the G-d stuff that they may not really desire for what ever reason they do not desire that which is G-dly).

Traveler, you've struck upon a conversation I've been having here, and at the Religion (Re: Mormonism) at hannity.com. And that is: To LDS the only real heaven is the Celestial Kingdom. No matter how "glorious" or "satisfactory" the Telestial/Terrestial kingdoms may be--they lack a key ingredient--the presence of God the Father!

That said, if I'm wrong about the nature of humanity and God, I, like most folk, would be "happy" to be corrected at the pearly gates, and then granted entry into the Celestial Kingdom. If you find it unreasonable that evangelicals question the orthodoxy--and by implication the salvation--of LDS, because of belief that God was once a man and that humanity can become God, I would find it equally unreasonable that I might be denied entry into the eternal presence of my heavenly Father, because I misunderstood such metaphysical concepts.

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

And one more thing. Contrary to what one or more persons have said in this thread, the only people who will be able to attain the Celestial kingdom by accepting the gospel after their mortal days of probation are and will be those who did not hear what you've now heard by hearing us tell you HOW you can know the truth… so if you don’t receive your assurances from God during your mortal days of probation (which could be cut short at any moment), now that you've heard us tell you HOW you can know the truth, you will then be among those who are or were deceived by Satan and the craftiness of men instead of accepting the truth through Faith in this life, and you will not be classed among those who relied upon Faith from God to assure them of what is really the truth.

Ray, please could you clarify this last paragraph for me, I may be reading it wrong or being a little dim. Are you saying that if PC was killed tomorrow, whilst still investigating the Church's beliefs, although not having had the chance to read the BOM in full and come to a decision on whether or not he believes in and is going to be Baptised into the LDS church, he will not have a 2nd chance at hearing the Gospel according to the LDS when he dies, because he wasn't quick enough? Would that apply to all people investigating or hearing from members of the LDS church about their beliefs who were killed before deciding whether or not to accept it too?

Okay, I’ll give you my answer to your example, according to my understanding, which I believe is inspired by God and has been inspired by God as I’ve learned from God and from God’s true prophets through the power of the Holy Ghost.

If Tommy died at this moment, he would be judged by what he accepts and what he is willing to accept at this moment, so if he is not willing to accept the idea that he needs to be baptized, or baptized again, by someone with the actual authority to baptize him, or if he is not willing to accept the idea that he needs to receive faith or an assurance from God assuring him of the truth on this issue (and he can actually receive that faith or assurance from God at this moment), then after arriving in the spirit world he would later learn that he was wrong, and that he truly did need to be baptized, or baptized again, by someone who did have the authority to baptize him, while also learning that he should have sought for faith or an assurance from God to help him know this truth, as well as any and all other truths, but finding himself classed among others who had heard the gospel truth but rejected it in their mortal lives, instead accepting ideas from people (other than God) who taught or tried to teach what they believed was true but really wasn’t, not being found worthy of the celestial kingdom or the laws of the celestial kingdom because he had neither been baptized by someone with authority to baptize him nor received and relied upon faith (or an assurance) from God assuring him of this truth when he actually could have received that faith (or assurance) from God.

Or in other words, people who hear the gospel in this world and do not accept what they hear, after hearing an actual truth, will be judged as people who were not willing to accept that truth, and instead were only willing to accept what Satan or people in this world taught them in their teachings which were not inspired or authorized by God, having chosen not to accept a truth they could have known to be true by simply seeking faith (or an assurance) from God.

Or in other words, nobody can reject the gospel here in this world and then, upon finding themselves in spirit form in the spirit world, find out the gospel is true after all and then seek to have other people perform the ordinances they need and could have performed for themselves so they can then go to the Celestial kingdom, because it just doesn’t work that way. And if you don’t believe me, believe the words of our Lord, as recorded in D&C section 76.

Or in other words, the only people who receive any benefit from hearing the gospel in the spirit world are and will be those who never heard it in this world, who would have received it in this world if they had heard it in this world, but because they didn't hear it, they didn't accept it.

Or in other words, God is not going to punish or condemn people who never heard or hear the gospel in this world, according to some who think that those who never heard or hear it will suffer, because everyone will receive an equal chance to hear the gospel either here in this world or in the next world if they didn't or do not hear it here.

Life is not just a game, people. Our decisions really matter. So let’s put our trust only in God.

(edited repeatedly to try to make this very clear, and I think it is very clear now - posting finished)

[Traveler]

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Now some have a hard time with the extent of this concept and say that if you are born as man stuff you can never be G-d stuff. This would exclude someone from being happy in the Celestial Kingdom but with this kind of thinking one can happily being saved in the Telestial Kingdom and receive all the blessing they hope for in the salvation they seek (excluding the G-d stuff that they may not really desire for what ever reason they do not desire that which is G-dly).

Traveler, you've struck upon a conversation I've been having here, and at the Religion (Re: Mormonism) at hannity.com. And that is: To LDS the only real heaven is the Celestial Kingdom. No matter how "glorious" or "satisfactory" the Telestial/Terrestial kingdoms may be--they lack a key ingredient--the presence of God the Father!

That said, if I'm wrong about the nature of humanity and God, I, like most folk, would be "happy" to be corrected at the pearly gates, and then granted entry into the Celestial Kingdom. If you find it unreasonable that evangelicals question the orthodoxy--and by implication the salvation--of LDS, because of belief that God was once a man and that humanity can become God, I would find it equally unreasonable that I might be denied entry into the eternal presence of my heavenly Father, because I misunderstood such metaphysical concepts.

My friend: I cannot answer for any belief other than my own. I have come to believe in this life that our destiny is not so much what we gather and choose along the way. It is not even the destination that we think we seek. It is the journey. Jesus spoke saying he is “the way” and we think of as a path to some where. I do not see this in quite those terms – but rather a “method”. The way is a method.

I think you and I are a lot a like – but sometimes there seems to be a divide. Be it real or a divide of understanding – allow if you will an attempt at a bridge.

I understand the first step to G-dliness as sacrifice. Sacrifice is key to understanding the nature of Christ and his atonement. Sacrifice is key to understanding anything of G-d. For example, sacrifice is key to understanding the creation. I believe that the atonement of Christ makes our sacrifices meaningful, worthwhile and divine. The Atonement enables good within us, it does not make good within us void or null.

This first divine step of sacrifice is countered in evil by selfishness. Selfishness destroys the ability to find joy in sacrifice. In our physical existence it is natural to be selfish and shun sacrifice. Therefore we must learn to enjoy sacrifice even though it can bring physical pain. Jesus says we will know the joy of sacrifice only by “doing” (doing and not hearing only).

In a previous post you talked of the importance of learning in this life. In a way I agreed with you but I felt you were missing a critical element. It is not just believing in G-d but loving G-d or if you will; loving sacrificing for others. If you are focused on your sacrifice as never being like the sacrifice of G-d then you will never learn the divine joy of sacrifice. When someone insists that the man-ness cannot be sacrificed for G-dness – this tells me they have not experienced the divine joy of sacrifice. I make an effort to “awaken” them to a divine possibility. I mean no offence – but I would point out something my father once told me. “You are today what you have wanted all along to be up until now.” If something needs to be changed for you to be different tomorrow you must change what you have wanted all along.

Sorry I cannot explain any better.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

When Ray and others--even including myself--speak about how we will be judged according to what we are willing to accept, the underlying truth is that the Holy Spirit will communicate truth to our hearts. The Old and New Testaments promise that whoever seeks God in sincerity will find Him.

So, if the Joseph Smith's revelations and the LDS gospel are true, those who sought God and were exposed to the teachings, and did not accept them, would be assumed to have "resisted the Holy Spirit."

As a counterpoint, if his revelations and the subsequent set of teaching that developed within the COJCLDS proves to have been wrong, then the assumption is that those who sought God when they heard these teachings, sensed that they should resist and turn to a traditional Christian fellowship, but did not.

Of course, most people realize that they are many mitigating factors. How strong was the witness? How much understanding had the individual received? Was the failure due to blatant rebellion, spiritual pride, simple laziness, or was there a measure of honest ignorance? So, most people say--"Well, here's the general pathway for one who fails, but I'll leave the ultimate judging to God."

As an example, one LDS poster at hannity.com refused to say that MANY non-LDS would get into the Celestial Kingdom. He even speculated that a majority of residents there would not have been LDS in their earthly existence.

Bottom-line: Most of us here are intelligent, spiritually hungry, truth-seekers. Personally, I want to get it right in this go-around--especially since I currently believe there'll be no 2nd chances in the afterlife!

[prisonchaplain]

Traveler makes some powerful and interesting comments about the joy of sacrifice--and how it is built upon the foundation of Jesus Christ's atonement. I mostly could only respond with "Amen." To obey is better than sacrifice. We cannot say we love God if we do not love one another. If we love Christ we'll obey his commands. We are not to tire in doing good. We're love our enemies, to feed and clothe them. We're to bring healing, deliverence and salvation to a resistent and often hostile world. We're to count it joy when we are mocked and persecuted for the Name.

However, we can be sincere and be sincerely wrong. Furthermore, we can give our lives to the flames, but if we have not love, it is purposeless.

So, oh how we need the Holy Spirit to reside with us and in us--and even to overflow out of us. I don't want to be a 30 or 60-fold Christian--I want to produce 100-fold. I don't want to be a 1 or 2 talent Christiant. I want to be the 5-talent one that ends with 10.

I don't want to be lukewarm. I want to be hot!

Hunger, that sense of urgency, the fire in our bellies--the Christian that is not consumed by the things of this world. That's what I want.

[Ray]

Okay. I’d like to add one more thought on this issue before I hang up my hat.

I believe the possibility exists that some people who won’t find themselves in the Celestial kingdom will never really know what they missed, and are missing, because they won't believe the Celestial kingdom really exists and they will only get what they were expecting to receive.

Or in other words, God may never tell some people about what they missed, and are missing, instead only telling them about what they will and can receive, because God would not want to cause people any pain from knowing they could have received more, when it really wouldn’t do them any good.

For instance, those who believe God is totally incorporeal and exists only as a Spirit without a body will live in their idea of heaven in the Telestial kingdom, because they will only receive the ministry of the Holy Spirit and certain angels of God, and maybe not knowing there is anything more.

And those who believe God is totally incorporeal except for Jesus who has a real body will live in their idea of heaven in the Terrestrial kingdom, because they will only receive the ministry of Jesus and the Holy Spirit and certain other angels who are sent by God to them from heaven.

And those who believe our Father also has a body like Jesus will live in their idea of heaven in the Celestial kingdom, because they will receive the ministry of our Father in heaven, and only they will truly know Him, or truly see him again, along with Jesus and the Holy Spirit and ALL the angels.

Or in other words, I kinda doubt that either our Lord or our heavenly Father would want to “rub it in” for the people who don’t make it to higher kingdoms in heaven, so the judgment may be a very private moment without everybody seeing how everybody else has done.

There is still a kink that I can’t work out yet on this, though, and that is what I would do if I lived in a kingdom that other people I know couldn’t get to, and they asked me about how to get to my place.