Work & Glory Ii: Answers The "why" Of Anti-mormonism

[prisonchaplain]

My one complaint about the Work and Glory movies as I neared the end of #2 was that there was no compelling reason as to why the Antis hated Mormons so much. Then, it hit me. Yes, it did. It was right there, and I'd missed it. Furthermore, I think the movie got it right--perhaps without realizing it. So, what is the root cause of such much Anti-Mormonism at the church's beginning--and perhaps continuing up to today?

The greatest strength (outside of any discussion about truth and gospel) of the COJCLDS may also be the factor that causes so much wariness from non-members--the strength of the LDS community or fellowship. Neighbor helping neighbor sounds great in theory, but when a subgroup helps its own with such discipline, outsider's wonder what's really going on. In the movie, Mormons quickly became a majority in Jackson County--thus scaring the old timers, and the political establishment.

Today, some cultures have this kind of bond. Koreans will walk up to total strangers who look Korean and ask, "Are you Korean? Really? Where are you from..." Most Americans can't imagine doing that. However, I'll bet that if you're Mormon, and you saw someone carrying a BoM you might feel free to walk up and offer greetings.

When you mix a close-knit community that can do things en masse with religion, outsiders often feel nervous. Rumors get spread. Recent history with Jim Jones, David Koresh, and Hale Bopp offer worst case scenarios. Then I remember hearing that if the Church president were to call Mormons to head to a certain location, members would be there within 72 hours with emergency supplies. Such discipline represents good community and probably love for one another, if you're on the inside. Many outsiders would be curious, amazed, and perhaps troubled as well.

So, there's my theory. You greatest blessing may also be the factor that causes outsiders to misunderstand, misconstrue, and be somewhat apprehensive.

Am I on to something here? Any sociologists or historical buffs want to take a crack at my theory? Should I try for a doctorate with this, or go back to the drawing board???

[Guest MrsS]

Today, some cultures have this kind of bond. Koreans will walk up to total strangers who look Korean and ask, "Are you Korean? Really? Where are you from..." Most Americans can't imagine doing that. However, I'll bet that if you're Mormon, and you saw someone carrying a BoM you might feel free to walk up and offer greetings.

Yep, you are so right on the money. LDS can often "sense" another LDS. I do it quite often. But there are other subtle ways to spot another LDS. The CTR ring and tie tack for one, also the Angel Moroni tie tack. When I was a cashier at a grocery store, I could spot the Temple Recommend in the wallet of the tourists ~ I would then say, I have one too. They would then ask me where the meetinghouse was and what time were services.

We don't have to be carrying a BofM either ~ a Quad, or any of the books written by LDS Authors, the Ensign, New Era, etc. OR I can spot them as they stand in line in the grocery/big box stores as they turn the magazines around so that the sleazy fronts are not showing. I do that, and I don't even have children ~ I am just affronted by it, and the parents who say thank you will also give me a look and then ask are you LDS?

[pushka]

Prisonchaplain, I think your theory fits in with why there is such fear of close knit racial groups too.

In the 30's in Germany, Jewish communities were considered successful and certainly looked different from your average German.

In Britain today the Asian community is considered wealthy and powerful, and certainly looks different from your average Briton...ie, white briton!

Both communities have many support systems for their members and it is this which enables them to become successful and maybe powerful in some respects. Jealousy then breeds amongst those who do not have this sense of togetherness in their own community, and paranoia can so easily be a by-product of this jealousy.

[Laureltree]

chaplin,

Now you know why i have always enjoyed your topics.

wisdom wisdom and more wisdom lol

Still I do enjoy them, thanks

[Snow]

My one complaint about the Work and Glory movies as I neared the end of #2 was that there was no compelling reason as to why the Antis hated Mormons so much. Then, it hit me. Yes, it did. It was right there, and I'd missed it. Furthermore, I think the movie got it right--perhaps without realizing it. So, what is the root cause of such much Anti-Mormonism at the church's beginning--and perhaps continuing up to today?

The greatest strength (outside of any discussion about truth and gospel) of the COJCLDS may also be the factor that causes so much wariness from non-members--the strength of the LDS community or fellowship. Neighbor helping neighbor sounds great in theory, but when a subgroup helps its own with such discipline, outsider's wonder what's really going on. In the movie, Mormons quickly became a majority in Jackson County--thus scaring the old timers, and the political establishment.

Today, some cultures have this kind of bond. Koreans will walk up to total strangers who look Korean and ask, "Are you Korean? Really? Where are you from..." Most Americans can't imagine doing that. However, I'll bet that if you're Mormon, and you saw someone carrying a BoM you might feel free to walk up and offer greetings.

When you mix a close-knit community that can do things en masse with religion, outsiders often feel nervous. Rumors get spread. Recent history with Jim Jones, David Koresh, and Hale Bopp offer worst case scenarios. Then I remember hearing that if the Church president were to call Mormons to head to a certain location, members would be there within 72 hours with emergency supplies. Such discipline represents good community and probably love for one another, if you're on the inside. Many outsiders would be curious, amazed, and perhaps troubled as well.

So, there's my theory. You greatest blessing may also be the factor that causes outsiders to misunderstand, misconstrue, and be somewhat apprehensive.

Am I on to something here? Any sociologists or historical buffs want to take a crack at my theory? Should I try for a doctorate with this, or go back to the drawing board???

Hmmm,

That's one explanation of one of the components or motivations of early antiMormonism, however, it is not the sole explanation. Joseph Smith and his following face antagonism from the beginning before there were enough of them to have a community.

I don't think it does much to explain hatemongering that goes on today. I've posted for the past two days at a Christian (supposedly) message board. Not a single criticism, and there were hundreds was about the strength of the Mormon community and I doubt that any antiMormon would list it in his top 10 criticisms of the Church of Jesus Christ.

Addtionally Mormons are attacked in communities where they lack any significant presence.

My list of motivation for antiMormons goes something like this:

1. Some people are immoral and unethical hatemongers.

2. Some people are religiously immature and require an "other" to demonize and thus elevate themselves.

3. See number 1

4. See number 2

[prisonchaplain]

That's one explanation of one of the components or motivations of early antiMormonism, however, it is not the sole explanation. Joseph Smith and his following face antagonism from the beginning before there were enough of them to have a community.

I don't think it does much to explain hatemongering that goes on today. I've posted for the past two days at a Christian (supposedly) message board. Not a single criticism, and there were hundreds was about the strength of the Mormon community and I doubt that any antiMormon would list it in his top 10 criticisms of the Church of Jesus Christ.

My argument that the tight LDS community may be a blessing to the members, but an underlying concern for nonmembers is a subtle one. No, it certainly won't make anyone's top-10, nor even top-100 complaints list. In fact, not members would like profess to admire this aspect of your faith practice. However, I still contend that this group loyalty does cause some consternation for outsiders--perhaps more so from the not-particularly-religious folk.

[Ray]

Hello. My name is Ray. And I am addicted to LDS Talk.

Tommy,

You’re on the verge of making a very good point here, but I think you still need to give it some more thought.

What would it be that would make others uncomfortable around LDS and their (and my) worship of God?

The fact that most LDS seem to have a “tight community” should not make good people uncomfortable, unless some aspect of what LDS are, or are not, would do harm or infringe upon the good in society.

Should a person worshipping God be uncomfortable around LDS if LDS are also worshipping God, or at least worshipping God as well as other people who are also worshipping God as they do?

How could good public servants and good leaders in other religions be so opposed to LDS and LDS religion, when even they do not agree with others and other religions, and to the point of doing evil to LDS people... when good people cannot be so evil.

And to give you my answer, just in case you are interested, there was a war going on between the forces of good and evil... and that war is still going on, and those who are “evil” will always be opposed to those who are or are trying to be “good”.

And btw, just in case you didn’t notice, from the movie or from the history of the Church, the LDS did and still don’t persecute others, not even others with a false knowledge of God… although we do try to help others know God, as much as we think we can help… but once others show they don’t want to know Him, we still do what we can as His church… because doing good to others, even those who persecute us, is what God would have us do as His church.

p.s. And I'm still trying to break my addiction to this website, so pray that I'll someday be gone. :)

[StrawberryFields]

I believe that in some cases fear is what causes people to hate.

It wasn't too long ago where I had a new neighbor come up to me and within the first few things he said to me he said "Oh I am not Mormon". I said, "Well that doesn't matter to me I love all good people" This neighbor now has a key to my home (and to my heart). :)

[Ray]

Love destroys fear and gives peace the world longs for but for some reason doesn't know how to make, so the world tries to get it by trying to incite fear while thinking God doesn't give it to take.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could somehow make love instead of war through the peace that we fake? Maybe we could give cookies to our neighbors around us, and then make the world shake as we bake.

Hello. My name is Ray. I am addicted to LDS Talk. Thank you all very much for your time. :)

[StrawberryFields]

Well said Ray. :)

[prisonchaplain]

Hello. My name is Ray. I am addicted to LDS Talk. Thank you all very much for your time. :)

Does this mean you're staying?

[prisonchaplain]

Tommy,

You’re on the verge of making a very good point here, but I think you still need to give it some more thought.

Why does this remind me of when I was a kid, and my dad would say, "You have a good point...it's on top of your head "

What would it be that would make others uncomfortable around LDS and their (and my) worship of God? The fact that most LDS seem to have a “tight community” should not make good people uncomfortable, unless some aspect of what LDS are, or are not, would do harm or infringe upon the good in society.

Again, it's subtle...but when there is a tight-knit group within a community, and there are aspects of that community which remain hidden...well, fallen humanity can get paranoid.

Should a person worshipping God be uncomfortable around LDS if LDS are also worshipping God, or at least worshipping God as well as other people who are also worshipping God as they do?

Once again--and Snow may have refined this for me--it's probably more the secular or non-spiritually-engaged folk who are discomforted by tightly-committed religious groups.

How could good public servants and good leaders in other religions be so opposed to LDS and LDS religion, when even they do not agree with others and other religions, and to the point of doing evil to LDS people... when good people cannot be so evil.

I think for religious people, the opposition is more related to beliefs and practices, perceived orthodox vs. heresy. The Work and the Glory seemed to focus on the non-LDS fears of this bloc of people and how they might vote, how they might 'take over' etc., vs. purely theological opposition.

And to give you my answer, just in case you are interested, there was a war going on between the forces of good and evil... and that war is still going on, and those who are “evil” will always be opposed to those who are or are trying to be “good”.

So which is worse, a heretic or an apostate? Or perhaps Satan inspires the worst Evangelicals and the worst LDS to poison our relationships (I'm speaking more about civility than pure religious truth, here).

And btw, just in case you didn’t notice, from the movie or from the history of the Church, the LDS did and still don’t persecute others, not even others with a false knowledge of God… although we do try to help others know God, as much as we think we can help… but once others show they don’t want to know Him, we still do what we can as His church… because doing good to others, even those who persecute us, is what God would have us do as His church.

One of the LDS posters at hannity.com did point out a few things that LDS settlers may have done that were "not helpful." Nevertheless, it's surely true that the LDS, with a theology that says many non-members will have opportunities in the afterlife, are inclined to present the gospel as "all carrot, no stick," whereas evangelicals, in particular, present both--seeing hell as the only home for the unredeemed.

p.s. And I'm still trying to break my addiction to this website, so pray that I'll someday be gone. :)

I just pray that when you do finally leave us, you'll be going to a better place.

[dtse928]

It's simple folks!

"Look at the fruit of the tree!" ...Are we doing good or are we doing bad? If we are doing good, than why hate?

Isn't it natural that a group who have the same beliefs and values should be close? What do people suggest? ...That we not be so close so others with their unecessary paranoia would have it subside? Get real!

As it's stated in the scriptures, (I'm not gonna look it up) ... but it goes something like this:

**If you are not the first to offend, nor the second, you should not suffer to be destroyed.** ...Basically, if the "haters" should attack, we have the right to defend ourselves as long as we're not the first or second to offend.

[StrawberryFields]

As it's stated in the scriptures, (I'm not gonna look it up) ... but it goes something like this:

**If you are not the first to offend, nor the second, you should not suffer to be destroyed.** ...Basically, if the "haters" should attack, we have the right to defend ourselves as long as we're not the first or second to offend.

WHAT?

[CaptainTux]

In most social gatherings of any nature, there is a natural developments towards community and hanging out together. This has now become known as cliques. Cliques are generally considered to be exclusive and secretive. In the case of lds, you have this very strong community with it's own folkways and mores combined with the misinformation about the lds that makes it almost seem like an inclusive secret society. Fair or not, that could be the perception of some. To join means to be a part of the community, but to join could also mean signing on to something you cannot get out of. The Stepford wives makes the concept of a happy nuclear family to be creepy. In some ways, every time a missionary has introduced me to a family in the lds, they are well dressed, smiling, perfectly happy, and in many ways identical. I know that some of that is the principles of faith and other parts of it are making a good impression, but at the same time, for whatever reason, people find happiness within a "clique" to be...well...creepy.

I do not feel this way, but I think I see where he is going with this.

I do not see it as a reason for anti mormonism, but maybe fear of the lds.

[StrawberryFields]

In most social gatherings of any nature, there is a natural developments towards community and hanging out together. This has now become known as cliques. Cliques are generally considered to be exclusive and secretive. In the case of lds, you have this very strong community with it's own folkways and mores combined with the misinformation about the lds that makes it almost seem like an inclusive secret society. Fair or not, that could be the perception of some. To join means to be a part of the community, but to join could also mean signing on to something you cannot get out of. The Stepford wives makes the concept of a happy nuclear family to be creepy. In some ways, every time a missionary has introduced me to a family in the lds, they are well dressed, smiling, perfectly happy, and in many ways identical. I know that some of that is the principles of faith and other parts of it are making a good impression, but at the same time, for whatever reason, people find happiness within a "clique" to be...well...creepy.

I do not feel this way, but I think I see where he is going with this.

I do not see it as a reason for anti mormonism, but maybe fear of the lds.

Thanks for sharing this view, I have never thought of us like that.

What especially struck me was your comment "in many ways identical" This is something as members of the church I think we struggle with...to be identical, to be that family you describe. Personally I have a real problem with mormons and their "Sunday Lives" this is what we believe we need to project to most everyone when in reality everyone struggles in some area's. Life is not picture perfect for anyone.

[CaptainTux]

Personally I have a real problem with mormons and their "Sunday Lives" this is what we believe we need to project to most everyone when in reality everyone struggles in some area's. Life is not picture perfect for anyone.

First of all, I hope I did not offend. Secondly, this Sunday life is not just a part of the lds, it is prevalent in most evangelical circles I know as well. The difference is, the evangelicals, though technically a part of the great commission, are more insulated and save the Sunday show for small groups and church gatherings to see who can be more just and holy and christian. Though I have never been to an lds small gathering, from an outsiders view, the evengelical aspect is more external and there seems to be a desire to show the best side to prove what God has done.

Frankly, when I see someone who is perfectly happy, I see a better actor than me. What would turn me on to faith and I think others, is not someone who suddenly gets whiter teeth and a happier family, but someone who has a different perspective. Someone who still faces trials, and pain and sorrow, but there is an inner strength without pretense that shows that there is something else under the hood that keeps them going through the tough times.

Life stinks sometimes. Life is hard. If I want to see a fantasy where life becomes easy, I have the Brady Bunch to watch. his place has been good for me. I have gotten to see that Mormons bleed, doubt, struggle, and suffer just like the rest of us mere mortals.

[Ray]

Hello. My name is Ray. I am addicted to LDS Talk. Thank you all very much for your time. :)

Does this mean you're staying?

Yes, until I leave, and I’m trying to leave as soon as I can… which I think will come soon after I share some more truths... I would like to see you see some more truths. :)

What would it be that would make others uncomfortable around LDS and their (and my) worship of God? The fact that most LDS seem to have a “tight community” should not make good people uncomfortable, unless some aspect of what LDS are, or are not, would do harm or infringe upon the good in society.

Again, it's subtle...but when there is a tight-knit group within a community, and there are aspects of that community which remain hidden...well, fallen humanity can get paranoid.

Because they are fallen or what? And why should outsiders know everything about things that can only be learned spiritually from God... when some insiders are also still trying to learn?

Should a person worshipping God be uncomfortable around LDS if LDS are also worshipping God, or at least worshipping God as well as other people who are also worshipping God as they do?

Once again--and Snow may have refined this for me--it's probably more the secular or non-spiritually-engaged folk who are discomforted by tightly-committed religious groups.

I think you agree that it’s good vs. evil, and you’re just not using those words.

How could good public servants and good leaders in other religions be so opposed to LDS and LDS religion, when even they do not agree with others and other religions, and to the point of doing evil to LDS people... when good people cannot be so evil.

I think for religious people, the opposition is more related to beliefs and practices, perceived orthodox vs. heresy. The Work and the Glory seemed to focus on the non-LDS fears of this bloc of people and how they might vote, how they might 'take over' etc., vs. purely theological opposition.

Are you saying that when people actually practice or live by the principles of God’s true religion, something causes other “bad” people to try to oppose them… kinda like how some people might be opposed to being led by a prophet who is leading with guidance from God?

And to give you my answer, just in case you are interested, there was a war going on between the forces of good and evil... and that war is still going on, and those who are “evil” will always be opposed to those who are or are trying to be “good”.

So which is worse, a heretic or an apostate?

I think they’re both trying to teach things or support things our Lord doesn't approve of, if they’re heretics or apostates against God or the people God inspires with true religion.

Or perhaps Satan inspires the worst Evangelicals and the worst LDS to poison our relationships

Yes, those who are against God can be inspired and used by Satan to poison relationships against God and God’s people.

(I'm speaking more about civility than pure religious truth, here).

I think it can happen both ways.

And btw, just in case you didn’t notice, from the movie or from the history of the Church, the LDS did and still don’t persecute others, not even others with a false knowledge of God… although we do try to help others know God, as much as we think we can help… but once others show they don’t want to know Him, we still do what we can as His church… because doing good to others, even those who persecute us, is what God would have us do as His church.

One of the LDS posters at hannity.com did point out a few things that LDS settlers may have done that were "not helpful."

I never said that all LDS are good or perfect people, but we generally try to help people instead of trying to hurt them, as those people actually hurt members of our Church.

Nevertheless, it's surely true that the LDS, with a theology that says many non-members will have opportunities in the afterlife, are inclined to present the gospel as "all carrot, no stick," whereas evangelicals, in particular, present both--seeing hell as the only home for the unredeemed.

We (LDS) also believe in both sides of the issue, or heaven and hell, too, Tommy. We simply believe everyone will actually hear the true gospel at some point… in contrast to the idea taught by some people saying those who never hear the gospel in this life are totally out of luck, and will never hear the true gospel and be able to benefit from God’s blessings..

p.s. And I'm still trying to break my addiction to this website, so pray that I'll someday be gone. :)

I just pray that when you do finally leave us, you'll be going to a better place.

I have no doubts about that. But as soon as I leave, I won’t know about you and some other people here, and I’d like to see y’all see some more truths. :)

But yes, I know, it’s vanity, and I probably won't get to see that, but I’d still like to do some more to try to help you. :)

[prisonchaplain]

It's simple folks!

"Look at the fruit of the tree!" ...Are we doing good or are we doing bad? If we are doing good, than why hate?

1. The secular folk are concerned that, no matter how lush and healthy your tree, the roots may intrude upon their territory, and that the branches may hang over and fall into their yard.

2. The religious opponents believe that "fruit" is BOTH what you do and what you SAY. They do not agree with what you say, and deem it bad fruit.

**If you are not the first to offend, nor the second, you should not suffer to be destroyed.** ...Basically, if the "haters" should attack, we have the right to defend ourselves as long as we're not the first or second to offend.

You're not planning to start a Mormon Militia, are you???

[prisonchaplain]

why should outsiders know everything about things that can only be learned spiritually from God... when some insiders are also still trying to learn?

I'm not asking you to defend why you have secrets--just speculating that having them leads to suspicion from outsiders.

Are you saying that when people actually practice or live by the principles of God’s true religion, something causes other “bad” people to try to oppose them… kinda like how some people might be opposed to being led by a prophet who is leading with guidance from God?

No, Ray, that's not what I said. I'm no plagiarist! I wouldn't want to steal your testimony, and put my name on it.

Seriously, Ray--I said that religious opponents disagree with your theology--how could you twist that into a good LDS vs. bad non-LDS scenario???

I think they’re both trying to teach things or support things our Lord doesn't approve of, if they’re heretics or apostates against God or the people God inspires with true religion.

My point was that LDS leaders have called the non-LDS Christian world apostate. Some groups have called the LDS heretics. There has been ugliness on both sides of the theological wall. So, while modern LDS practice is to "take the high road," and not speak poorly of other faiths, me thinks no faith group can claim to be "without sin" in the area of speaking disparingly and ignorantly about other faith groups.

Yes, those who are against God can be inspired and used by Satan to poison relationships against God and God’s people.

No, this one goes to far. I need clarification. Ray--do you really believe that no one who has used the LDS banner, has ever spoken maliciously about non-LDS Christians? Do you doubt that some who call themselves LDS might have, even in private conversations, spoke words of condemnation and ignorance concerning other faiths--of a type that might have left Satan cheering?

Jesus said, "He who is without sin can cast the first stone." Do you really think that the LDS movement is qualified to start tossing?

I never said that all LDS are good or perfect people, but we generally try to help people instead of trying to hurt them, as those people actually hurt members of our Church.

You do seem to come awfully close to implying this in the first portion of this post. If this is clarification, I can breathe a sigh of relief!

I have no doubts about that. But as soon as I leave, I won’t know about you and some other people here, and I’d like to see y’all see some more truths. :)

But yes, I know, it’s vanity, and I probably won't get to see that, but I’d still like to do some more to try to help you. :)

. . . Said the federal marshalls as they hauled me off to

[dtse928]

<div class='quotemain'>

As it's stated in the scriptures, (I'm not gonna look it up) ... but it goes something like this:

**If you are not the first to offend, nor the second, you should not suffer to be destroyed.** ...Basically, if the "haters" should attack, we have the right to defend ourselves as long as we're not the first or second to offend.

WHAT?

Alma 43:46 (half way into verse 46)

"Inasmuch as ye are not guilty of the first offense, neither the second, ye shall not sufffer yourselves to be slain by the hands of your enemies."

Also read Alma 43:47

[Lindy]

[Frankly, when I see someone who is perfectly happy, I see a better actor than me. What would turn me on to faith and I think others, is not someone who suddenly gets whiter teeth and a happier family, but someone who has a different perspective. Someone who still faces trials, and pain and sorrow, but there is an inner strength without pretense that shows that there is something else under the hood that keeps them going through the tough times.

Life stinks sometimes. Life is hard. If I want to see a fantasy where life becomes easy, I have the Brady Bunch to watch. his place has been good for me. I have gotten to see that Mormons bleed, doubt, struggle, and suffer just like the rest of us mere mortals.

Here Here..... standing applause I couldn't have said it better..... real people... real lives... no pretense. Good post!