Divorce Dilemma

[TopGear-head]

So I have a dilemma. I have been married for almost 5 years. We were married in the Temple. We have one beautiful daughter under 3. The last couple years have been very rough for us. Mainly sexually but that has just led to frustration elsewhere. We've never had a very good intimate life. She has never really been interested. Sometimes hostile about it. I mean anything remotely sexual has gotten her angry. She has no problem joking around with other couples about sex,(ie. "i know what you're gonna do later!") That kind of stuff. But heaven forbid if I say anything along those lines. It's ok for other people, but not me. There's a total double standard. The only time she is "interested" is when she wants to get pregnant. So I'm reduced to stud service.

Anyway, this has been going on for the last couple years. And I have to admit...I'm fed up. It has certainly led to me being frustrated with other aspects of our marriage. I just don't like being around her anymore. I'm sure I still love her, but if I do, those feelings are buried pretty deep. I'm to the point now where I just want out. I love my daughter with all my heart, but I'm miserable. Would I miss my daughter? Every second of every day. But if I stay, I'll just be more unhappy.

The worst part of this whole situation is what it has led to. Over the past year, my vulnerability has led to opportunity. I have developed strong feelings for a co-worker. I know she has the same feelings. We haven't done more than talk - I'm not THAT stupid. But I can see the way this might go. I feel horrible about this whole situation, but I would rather be with this other woman. I need to do something, or I'm going to get in some serious trouble. (and yes, I know I shouldn't have let it go that far. But you have to understand where I'm coming from. This didn't happen over night. Vulnerability leads to opportunity.)

I'm not satisfied with my home life. I feel like I'm living a lie. I suggested counseling a few years ago, but to no avail. I ordered Laura Brotherson's book, but when she found it in the mail, she was PISSED! She doesn't feel there's a problem with our sex life. It's just something she can live without. I wonder what sex would be like with a woman who actually wants to be there. I just want out. I know it would have serious repercussions, but I think I'm done here.

So bottom line. I've tried to work things out in the past, but it hasn't done anything. I'm seriously fed up with my marriage, even though i'd be losing my wonderful daughter. I think I'M entitled to some happiness here. It seems like every other couple I know has a perfect, happy life, and I'm stuck in a marriage that I'm falling out of love with. I know that I should soldier on and stay, but I would continue to be miserable. I hate to leave my daughter, but I don't think it's going to get any better. Like I said, this didn't just happen over night. It's been the past few years. I feel so torn. I'm on the fence right now, just worrying about what I should do. I kind of want to just get out and move on. To just try again, but I'm not sure. So you can see. I need help.

[Guest]

A common dilemma. My husband went through it too. It took us about 10 years to completely fix it... it is a tough problem. But, I assure you, it was a better problem to have than having to deal with divorce, half-time parenthood, impact on the kids, and having to solve problems with another marriage... because, all marriages have problems. Whoever says anything different either have their heads in the sand or are lying through their teeth. So, first of all, I am very sorry this is happening to you. I will try to give you as much support as I can through a forum.

Have you expressed everything you said here to your wife in a calm, humble, non-threatening, loving way?

If yes, what did she say, how did it go?

If not, try it at the very first opportunity - using something like this method:

1.) arrange for a babysitter for your daughter.

2.) right when you get to work (or if she works, right after she gets to work), have flowers/fruit/chocolate arrangements delivered to her with a request for a special date that night - just the two of you.

3.) take her to the nicest restaurant you can afford that she likes - don't hold back.

4.) give her special attention the entire time - listen to her talk, ask her questions to get her talking - you don't need to talk.

5.) if she asks you what's going on - tell her you've been remiss in expressing your love for her and you're making up for it.

6.) then towards dessert - tell her you have something VERY IMPORTANT to discuss with her. And then say everything you said on your opening post in a non-threatening, humble, loving manner. Ask her to help you in your struggle. And tell her you don't need an overnight solution. Just little steps towards a solution. (yes, you would need to practice this). Make sure you don't BLAME her for anything! Remember this and don't ever forget it - she is struggling too. Make sure you tell her you are going to work on a solution TOGETHER - not that you are waiting for her to solve the problem...

Then do steps 1-5 again on the first friday of every single month. Do step 4 every single day.

Remember Jesus' counsel - those who lose their life will find it. Those who save their life will lose it... or something to that effect.

Edited April 20, 2011 by anatess
I can't seem to spell today.

[Guest mormonmusic]

I share your concerns --deeply. You are in almost EXACTLY the same position I was many years ago. One child in the home, sexless marriage, and had just met someone I had fallen in love with although neither of us had expressed the feelings emotionally. But having met someone made me extremely vulnerable. I also feel your situation needs a harder solution given the fact that your wife won't acknowledge the problem or see counseling with you. That is the part that is bad in this, as well as how your wife's sturbborness is creating this gaping hole in your personal needs, leaving you vulnerable.

Here is what I recommend:

1. Do what I will call the MarriageBuilders Test. I think Anatess has good advice -- first figure out what your wife's emotional needs are and do your best to meet them. I always recommend you go through the whole philosophy at Marriage Builders ® - Successful Marriage Advice and see if there is more you can do to trigger love in your wife. This can help. It helped our marriage in your situation. Do this until you're convinced its not working.

2. Do the Single Test. How would you feel not having your wife in your life anymore? Could you embrace that? Or would you feel depressed about it, miss her, etcetera? If your answer is "I think I'd be happier without her", then move on to the Aftermath Test.

2. Do the Aftermath Test. How would you feel having shared parenting, child support for the next 15 or so years, the cost of divorce, impact on your daughter, limitations on where you can take your travel, or even move, depending on the laws of your state? Is it worth it given yoru vision of a life without her, and with someone who meets your needs? If you're not sure what the aftermath with be, then see a lawyer and figure out what you will have to do if you get a divorce.

3. If you want divorce after the Aftermath Test then do the Informal Separation Test. Tell your wife that you are leaving until she decides she will go to counseling. If she calls you during the informal separation, be business-like, brief, and focus the conversation on teh problem -- her lack of willingness to go to counselling.

4. If you fail these tests (meaning your heart wants divorce given the loneliness and aftermath costs and your wife won't respond), then do the Intervention Initiative. Pray with real intent about your desire to leave your marriage, and plead with God to intervene. Put a reasonable time frame in your mind, withought demanding it, and pray for Him to do his work. My marriage turned around at this phase, although I did have some breif Informal Separation Tests leading up to it, described next....

5. If she agrees to counseling, do it. If she refuses after a reasonable time, then I would initiate a divorce.

I only partly agree with Anatess about marriage being all about service. This is only true to a point. Marriages simply do not survive when one individual's needs go unmet for long periods of time. Although we are ultimately responsible for our actions, stubborness on basic emotional needs by a spouse can lead to vulnerability like you describe. An its simply not fair that one spouse enjoys all the benefits and happiness while the other spouse languishes in the misery of unment needs. Such selfishness can put your covenants and your salvation and relationship with God in jeopardy -- those things come before the needs of your wife, and your child, as sad as it may be.

Good luck. I feel for you, I really do. I suffered with Unmet Needs for a long time, and I know how it can hurt other parts of your marriage. Your situation sounds SO MUCH like mine, and you sound like you are far along in withdrawal. Good news -- I solved mine with the Lord's help using the Tests and Initiatives I described above. My situation unlocked at The Intervention Initiative and I'm still married and resonably happy. Let us know how it goes....I care, and I'm interested.

Edited April 20, 2011 by mormonmusic

[Guest mormonmusic]

By the way, if you intend to apply the tests above, you will have to do the hard thing and break off the emotional connection with the person at work. I had to do something mean to her to make her angry with me so she would stop coming at me. I hurt so badly, and I went on loving her for some time. But this is essential for the success of the Tests and Interventions. Take peace in this fact -- if you end up getting divorce, the love you felt for this OW has proven there are others out there with whom you can have a loving relationship. Let the hope inspire your and move you forward if your marriage fails.....

[Guest]

On the other hand,

<snipped for brevity>

Mormonmusic has lots of great advice.

The only thing I disagree with is the divorce part. In my case, my husband and I agreed before we got married that Divorce Is Not An Option. It is literally on a frame in our bedroom.

We both believe that if Divorce Is An Option - it will always be an "escape route". Take it out of the equation and both spouses will have to face the problem or be unhappy forever. But, we both made this very clear before we got married. Dunno how that will work if you never made that commitment in the first place.

[NeuroTypical]

Here's something to think about. In your post, you referred to yourself ("I", "I'm", "I'll") a total of 61 times. A whopping 12 times per paragraph. Here's everything you have to say about your daughter:

We have one beautiful daughter under 3.

...

I love my daughter with all my heart, but I'm miserable.

...

Would I miss my daughter? Every second of every day. But if I stay, I'll just be more unhappy.

...

I'm seriously fed up with my marriage, even though i'd be losing my wonderful daughter.

...

I hate to leave my daughter, but I don't think it's going to get any better.

You only manage to mention your daughter 5 times - and 4 of those times she takes a back seat to your pain and troubles. I suggest you re-write your tale of woe, but from her viewpoint instead. Take you out of it, put her into it. Then write the tale according to what's best for her.

Because that's basically what you signed up to do when you had kids - do what's best for her.

LM

[Bini]

LM, great read.

Sometimes children are better off with parents apart than together, especially if there is constant fighting and abuse, no child should be submitted to that environment. Otherwise, work it out the best YOU can. Best of luck.

[Gatekeeper]

Hi Top, welcome to the site! Well, wrap your legs tight around that fence until this problem is solved, because this matter will take some time to overcome. :)

As you mention, at present your lovely daughter is an excellent reason to seek a happy resolution to your marital problems. Perhaps your commitment to her will strengthen you to develop the energy to overcome those sexual impulses outside your marriage vows.

Since your wife is incapable of consciously facing the real cause of her sexual eccentricity, it is better that both of you find a qualified sex therapist. At this point, your natural sexual desires have psychologically derailed you, as you have properly determined.

For your family’s sake, search for the Lord’s guidance by constant prayer and daily scripture reading.

[Guest mormonmusic]

Mormonmusic has lots of great advice.

The only thing I disagree with is the divorce part. In my case, my husband and I agreed before we got married that Divorce Is Not An Option. It is literally on a frame in our bedroom.

We both believe that if Divorce Is An Option - it will always be an "escape route". Take it out of the equation and both spouses will have to face the problem or be unhappy forever. But, we both made this very clear before we got married. Dunno how that will work if you never made that commitment in the first place.

I also made that commitment when I sat on the steps of the temple. That divorce was not an option. However, after years upon years of trying, I hit bottom. There comes a point when you realize that if things don't change, if your spouse won't cooperate, that you have nothing left to give. I agree that the "No Divorce" option is a good one, but I think one needs to recognize that sometimes, people refuse to do whta is necessary to save their marriage. Notice I didn't say what a "reasonable" time is. For me, reasonable for 10 years of no progress. His migth be 15 years, 20 years or 6 months.

What bothers me is that he is becoming vulnerable. I know how that feels, to realize your previously good heart and strong commitment is severely compromised, the same way a disease can weaken your immune system. He will know when he is getting to that point -- and then, you have to take action....

[Guest]

I also made that commitment when I sat on the steps of the temple. That divorce was not an option. However, after years upon years of trying, I hit bottom. There comes a point when you realize that if things don't change, if your spouse won't cooperate, that you have nothing left to give. I agree that the "No Divorce" option is a good one, but I think one needs to recognize that sometimes, people refuse to do whta is necessary to save their marriage. Notice I didn't say what a "reasonable" time is. For me, reasonable for 10 years of no progress. His migth be 15 years, 20 years or 6 months.

What bothers me is that he is becoming vulnerable. I know how that feels, to realize your previously good heart and strong commitment is severely compromised, the same way a disease can weaken your immune system. He will know when he is getting to that point -- and then, you have to take action....

Did she make the commitment?

Because, my husband and I made the commitment to each other - verbally among other things. I told him (I was Catholic then), if we get married, it will be forever. There's no if's, why's, but's about it. He said the same thing to me. This is on the same vein of conversation when we discussed my anger management challenges which I warned him can sometimes get out of control. Of course, we didn't know we'll have sexual issues as well. This is also the same vein of conversation we had when we discussed the vast differences in our cultural and family backgrounds and that we will have to elope because my dad will be after him with a shotgun. This is also the same vein of conversation where we discussed our difference in religion and made the agreement that we will have to decide what religion we are going to raise the kids in before we have kids.

He asked me out to our first date (we've been friends for 2 years), asked me to marry him after about a week after that, then we got married the following week. So, these intense conversations we had occurred within two weeks - mostly within the week between his proposal to our wedding at the courthouse. None of it was a surprise, of course. Having been really good friends for 2 years, we knew each other very well - with our hair down. I knew his family, he knew my family, etc. etc.

There's no such thing as my problem/his problem in our marriage. There is only OUR problem. So, if my husband has a problem, it is my problem too, regardless of whether I think it is a "real" problem or not. And vice versa.

Sometimes I don't understand why it is a problem. Sometimes I am the cause of the problem or He is the cause of the problem... it doesn't matter. Whatever it is, we have to both figure it out. Sometimes we end up in such a giant fight that one time I got out of the car and walked 10 miles to go home while 8 months pregnant. One time it was so bad I threw a breakable plate at him... some things took the better part of 10 years to get resolved... but, we both go in the trenches and see it through. Because, we made a pact that this is forever.

That's the thing with the OP. You kinda have to know if your wife is just a plain mean person (this would usually bring about signs before the wedding or not too far after it). I don't believe this. I believe she has a problem. A real problem. Some back-story that is leading to this attitude about sex. It is not just her problem. It is THEIR problem. THEY BOTH have to solve it. The first step is to make her realize there is a problem... she could be in denial, or she may just plainly not see there is a problem. There are so many factors to this thing - sexual stuff is very complicated. Women's psyche is very different from the men's. You cannot force her to admit to a problem by attack mode. You have to tackle the problem as a supporter, not an enemy. Make sense?

Edited April 20, 2011 by anatess

[Guest mormonmusic]

Did she make the commitment?

Because....

We both made that commitment. However, it's not just enough to make a commitment to stay married -- it's a commitment to MAKE IT WORK -- not to stay miserable without working on the marriage. And that means having to meet your spouses needs, even when you may not want to. It means finding a way to try to make you both happy. That, for me, is what service is all about in marriage -- meeting the other person's needs and willingly trying to change one's way of interacting to meet their needs. The opening poster sounds as if his wife is not trying to make this work -- not willing to go to counselling, etcetera.

Naturally, we don't know all the details, but taking what he says at face value, I agree that he should try to Anatess Approach -- but he will know when enough is enough -- if it ever is. The fact that his wife won't go to counselling and doesn't seem to care, and is unresponsive to working on the problem is a huge concern for me.

[AGStacker]

I'm sure I still love her

Number 1. STAY COMPLETELY AWAY FROM THE CO-WORKER! Of course you may need to communicate because you work with her but that's it! You are still married and doing anything with this person would be horrible wrong and stupid and you would regret it!

If you TRULY love your wife you will want to help her fix it no matter the circumstance. Essentially, try harder. Don't give up on her. You having desires for this other woman is bad. Think about your wife. Did you see Monson's talk in Priesthood? When was the last time you and your wife sat in on a sealing? You haven't exacerbated all of your options!

Stick to the plan. Hold to the rod. Don't give up yet.

Yes this needs to be fixed but get someone involved. Anyone who could help.

Edited April 21, 2011 by AGStacker

[Guest]

We both made that commitment. However, it's not just enough to make a commitment to stay married -- it's a commitment to MAKE IT WORK --

How do you stay in a marriage and not make it work??? It's like the grace/works argument - they're one and the same - you can't separate the two!

Naturally, we don't know all the details, but taking what he says at face value, I agree that he should try to Anatess Approach -- but he will know when enough is enough -- if it ever is. The fact that his wife won't go to counselling and doesn't seem to care, and is unresponsive to working on the problem is a huge concern for me.

Speaking from experience - I refused counselling for years because I DO NOT AGREE THAT WE HAD A PROBLEM! As far as I was concerned, he was just one horny toad and needed to grow up! A wife who doesn't care will not be doing ANYTHING else. It's not just the sex that is going to be the problem! At that point in the marriage, if my husband would have insisted on counselling I would have slugged him! Because, everytime he brings it up, it is translated in my brain as - You (that is me) are a problem, you are stupid for not seeing it, and I'm going to prove to you that you are wrong by getting a professional to shove it down your throat!

Guess what - when it finally sunk in that I, indeed, had problems - we didn't need counselling then!

Like I said - you can't force her to see the problem. Because, the more you insist, the more she'll resist.

So, what, you would ask, is the limit? Is she cruel? Is she mean-spirited? Is she vindictive? Is she deliberately abusive? Does she gain pleasure from your pain? No? Then you're far from your limit.

[Suzie]

How do you stay in a marriage and not make it work???

By just pretending to be roommates? I am not talking about this specific case but based on the many threads I have read with a similar scenario, it seems like one of the persons in the marriage seems to be quite comfortable with playing house (usually the woman) and being simply a roommate. When counseling is mentioned they don't want to receive help, etc and it's usually a threat of some sort ("I am leaving you if you don't..") that makes the person "wake up" somehow and face the problem.

[Guest]

By just pretending to be roommates? I am not talking about this specific case but based on the many threads I have read with a similar scenario, it seems like one of the persons in the marriage seems to be quite comfortable with playing house (usually the woman) and being simply a roommate. When counseling is mentioned they don't want to receive help, etc and it's usually a threat of some sort ("I am leaving you if you don't..") that makes the person "wake up" somehow and face the problem.

If the woman is a roommate and not a help-meet... can that still be called a marriage?

There's also a flipside to this. If there's no sex, is it still a marriage (taking into consideration that's the only thing missing)?

[Suzie]

If the woman is a roommate and not a help-meet... can that still be called a marriage?

There's also a flipside to this. If there's no sex, is it still a marriage (taking into consideration that's the only thing missing)?

Good points anatess. I suppose legally still a marriage.

[Guest]

Good points anatess. I suppose legally still a marriage.

Yeah, there was this thread a while ago about an elderly man who married a widow so she could take care of him... I don't remember how the thread went (I wasn't following it). But, I'm wondering if that can be a called a marriage or just a legal contract...

Edited April 21, 2011 by anatess

[Guest mormonmusic]

How do you stay in a marriage and not make it work???

I don't see it....to me, staying in a marriage when the other person is not willing to make it work is not a worthwhile goal. And the fact that the relationship is eternal makes it even worse!

I think the commitment should be MAKE IT WORK. Staying married is merely the outcome -- making it work is the means of getting there.

Speaking from experience - I refused counselling for years because I DO NOT AGREE THAT WE HAD A PROBLEM! As far as I was concerned, he was just one horny toad and needed to grow up! A wife who doesn't care will not be doing ANYTHING else. It's not just the sex that is going to be the problem! At that point in the marriage, if my husband would have insisted on counselling I would have slugged him! Because, everytime he brings it up, it is translated in my brain as - You (that is me) are a problem, you are stupid for not seeing it, and I'm going to prove to you that you are wrong by getting a professional to shove it down your throat!Guess what - when it finally sunk in that I, indeed, had problems - we didn't need counselling then!

That's why I suggest the informal separation then, to unfreeze his wife' attitudes about whether there is a problem. Anatess, what did it take for you to realize you had a problem?

Like I said - you can't force her to see the problem. Because, the more you insist, the more she'll resist.

Not in full agreement on that one. It sounds like you believe the man has no choice but to wait passively for decades until the wife makes the decision herself. I think that line of thinking gives the spouse license to basically ignore her husband's feelings about her unwillingness to have sex. Personally, if my wife comes to me and says she is unhappy -- then I have a problem. I'm not the one to question whether her unhappiness is valid or not -- it's what she thinks that matters.

I believe there is a lot a man can do to help his wife see there is a problem. Threatening to leave is one way after all other methods have failed.

So, what, you would ask, is the limit? Is she cruel? Is she mean-spirited? Is she vindictive? Is she deliberately abusive? Does she gain pleasure from your pain? No? Then you're far from your limit.

My wife was never mean, vindictive or cruel, but the phrase "You don't love me" came to my mind automatically over and over and over and over again when she refused to try to overcome the sex challenge in our marriage. I never said it out loud, but I believed it more and more strongly every passing year. Love can disappear even when you have the sweetest, nicest person who simply does not value meeting your needs. And then, divorce can seem very attractive.

Edited April 21, 2011 by mormonmusic

[Guest]

I don't see it....to me, staying in a marriage when the other person is not willing to make it work is not a worthwhile goal. And the fact that the relationship is eternal makes it even worse!

I think the commitment should be MAKE IT WORK. Staying married is merely the outcome -- making it work is the means of getting there.

The bad thing about this is - you "think" your spouse is not willing to make it work because she isn't doing what you "expect" her to do. But, the reality could be that your spouse also "thinks" the same way about you. So, in reality, both of you are trying to make it work you just don't understand how the other person is doing it.

So that, making the pact makes it a MUST that both of you have to make it work - so that, you and your spouse can TRUST that the other person is working just as hard as you to make it work.

That's why I suggest the informal separation then, to unfreeze his wife' attitudes about whether there is a problem.

If my husband would have left me - informal or not - he would have lost his kids. Because, I don't put up with that. I'm not stupid. Do not threaten me with "leaving me to force me to see things". Especially when in my understanding, MY HUSBAND is the one that is not seeing things. Because, THAT is emotional blackmail and I don't put up with that. I'll pack your bags for you.

Anatess, what did it take for you to realize you had a problem?

Patience and perserverance. I was abused when I was a little kid. I completely didn't tie the two together until after my 2nd son was born. I went through a psychologist waaaay before I got married. Even the psychologist said she thinks that's not an issue anymore. My husband knew about that before we got married and he didn't even tie that in either. So, it was a Eureka moment for both of us. It took us years after that Eureka moment before we got "in synch". What triggered the Eureka moment? Talking talking talking talking and bump - we stumbled on it. We've never talked about my abuse after we got married. That got me thinking.

You know, it is just like my conversion to LDS. Before my husband and I got married, I told him I am Catholic, I will die Catholic. My husband is LDS and believes in eternal families. He married me anyway (I don't know if I believe him, but he says he just knew we're going to be an eternal family somehow - if not this life then the next). Anyway, I was fairly convinced my husband will become Catholic. Then one day, we were talking talking talking talking and I asked my husband, "You must think I'm going to hell", and he said, "I have a bigger chance of going to hell than you" and that got me thinking. I mean - it took years before I finally got baptized.

The general theme to this is - my husband knows me, he knows I love him - even when I'm throwing plates at him. He is not yoda who knows exactly what to say at the proper time to get me thinking. But, one thing he does is - he never loses faith that I love him and is working as hard as he is in getting this marriage to work, just like he never loses faith that I love God (Catholic or not) and is working hard to follow His plan for me.

Not in full agreement on that one. It sounds like you believe the man has no choice but to wait passively for decades until the wife makes the decision herself.

I think that line of thinking gives the spouse license to basically ignore her husband's feelings about her unwillingness to have sex. Personally, if my wife comes to me and says she is unhappy -- then I have a problem. I'm not the one to question whether her unhappiness is valid or not -- it's what she thinks that matters.

Passively? No. Lovingly? Yes. And yes, nobody can force somebody else to do something.

Does the wife want her husband to be unhappy??? That's what I'm asking in several posts - Is the wife cruel? Is the wife deliberately abusive? Does the wife take pleasure in her husband's pain? No? Then, no, the wife does not take pleasure in ignoring her husband's problems. The husband may "think" it because he wants the wife to do things "his" way.

I believe there is a lot a man can do to help his wife see there is a problem. Threatening to leave is one way after all other methods have failed.

Threatening to leave is emotional blackmail. You don't do that and get away with it unscathed.

My wife was never mean, vindictive or cruel, but the phrase "You don't love me" came to my mind automatically over and over and over and over again when she refused to try to overcome the sex challenge in our marriage. I never said it out loud, but I believed it more and more strongly every passing year. Love can disappear even when you have the sweetest, nicest person who simply does not value meeting your needs. And then, divorce can seem very attractive.

Mormonmusic - I don't know your situation, I don't know your wife. I can only speak for my experience. "You don't love me" in my experience usually means - "You don't love me the way I want to be loved". Because, Love does not equal Sex in my book. I hate to cook - everytime I cook for my husband, that's a GIANT expression of my love for him. My husband thinks cooking is no big deal - so he may not equate the homemade plate infront of him as "I love You"'. But it is there nonetheless.

What is sad is if he threatens to leave me for not wanting sex after he ate the entire meal...

Edited April 22, 2011 by anatess

[Guest mormonmusic]

I was going to do a point by point rebuttal of this one, but I don't think it will work. I do agree with the loving expressions and attempts to get the other person to see your point of view is definitely a preferred way of doing things. And I'm glad the abuse finally surfaced as the cause of the problem in your case. I'm also thankful your husband didn't hit bottom before that revelation came to both of you -- I sincerely am.

HOwever, i maintain that at some point, each person has a breaking point. Personally, I see threatening to leave as a viable thing to do when one's heart is committed to leaving if things don't change. If you've read my other stories, you will read that I actually didn't threaten my wife I would leave before my own situation unlocked. But I DID have that intent my heart when I petitioned the Lord to intervene on my behalf. I told the LORD I was leaving after a decade of trying if things didn't change.

As I approached the decade mark, and saw my wife was well aware of the suffering she was causing in our marriage, and had no desire to change, and that I was getting more and more vulnerable to this attractive, kind, well-educated, organized, charismatic filipino woman I worked with, I reached the point where the idea of my own apartment and a new life became more attractive than the life I had. I realized that I could have my life in a better situation within a week or even days if I wanted it -- and it started looking more attractive. I had "passed" the Single Test.

And, if the Lord did not intervene at some point in the near future, I was going to give the ultimatum to my wife that if things didn't change, I was leaving. I had truly had enough and the threat was not idle, it was the state of my heart.

I did leave a couple times in our marriage previously, but it wasn't coupled with a threat. It was because I needed to get away or we were going to start throwing plates at each other if we didnt' get time away.

So, I will always advocate advising the spouse that if things don't change, ou are leaving, after all other methods have failed. One thing women do to men, which is far less courteous (and men to women, I'm sure), is just pick up and leave. The spouse is left wondering "what happened?". My advice at least provides a warning, another opportunity for the other spouse to realize they are in a crisis, and to decide if it's time to REALLY TRY to see the other person's point of view and meet their needs.

And last of all -- if I'm reading your statements right above, it sounds like you think it's wrong to petition your spouse to love you the way you want to be loved. I see nothing wrong with it, frankly. That, to me, is what service is about in a marriage. To say "you better take my love however I want to give it" is selfish in my view. It's not service, and it ignores the unique needs of the person you have married.

I have had to learn to love my wife the way she wants to be loved. It means leaving that work that must be done before a deadline to sit and talk for an hour, even though it means I'll be up even later in the evening -- until 2 or 3 am, when I'm already stressed and bushed and just want to be left alone. It means being physicially affectionate but not sexual every day. These are things I've had to learn to do, because they are important to her.

[Guest]

And last of all -- if I'm reading your statements right above, it sounds like you think it's wrong to petition your spouse to love you the way you want to be loved. I see nothing wrong with it, frankly. That, to me, is what service is about in a marriage. To say "you better take my love however I want to give it" is selfish in my view. It's not service, and it ignores the unique needs of the person you have married.

I have had to learn to love my wife the way she wants to be loved. It means leaving that work that must be done before a deadline to sit and talk for an hour, even though it means I'll be up even later in the evening -- until 2 or 3 am, when I'm already stressed and bushed and just want to be left alone. It means being physicially affectionate but not sexual every day. These are things I've had to learn to do, because they are important to her.

We'll agree to disagree on the first points. I see that we are coming from 2 different marriages. I could be wrong but it is looking like your marriage may not have the same level of commitment as mine is (no, I am not implying my marriage is better than yours - far from it - it is just the way my husband and I view our marriage and our respective personalities at play that make "our way" work in our particular case) therefore, you can't trust that your wife is working just as hard to figure things out even if she's going a different direction that what you wanted. Whereas, my husband and I are both secure in the knowledge that we are both hurting and we are both working towards a resolution - he doesn't for one second believe he is the only one hurting. So that we are more patient with each other because we know we are taking steps in solving the problem. There's no "rock bottom" in our relationship. He could completely flip out and lose his mind and become a psychotic maniac and I will not leave him. I will be there step-by-step figuring out what happened. He would do the same for me.

And this ties in to the post I quoted above about petitioning your spouse to love you the way you want to be loved. In my relationship, you don't have to. Neither of us got married expecting the other to change. So that, I came into the marriage knowing my husband is a football freak and he came into the marriage knowing I hate football. So that, we knew coming into the marriage that my husband will put football above everything else from August to March and he knew I won't be sitting on the stadium/infront of the TV with him. So that, when it was the day before the wedding and it was Monday Night Football, he went to the stadium. I didn't want to spend the day before my wedding away from him, so I went with him to the stadium. And when our team was about to lose to a field goal at 23-yards on the last 10 seconds of the game, he said, "We're cancelling the wedding tomorrow - we can't start our marriage in bad luck!". It hurt me but it didn't surprise me and I completely understood why he said that - so I banged the seats to make all the noise and screamed like a banshee... and by sheer force of will (okay, it was luck) we were able to block the field goal and we won anyway, so we got married as planned!

So, I had the baby in August - bad timing - pre-season just started... and I had complications and had to get a c-section and stay in the hospital for over a week. He was there but his eyes were glued to the TV in the corner. I had to yell at him to get his attention when I need to go to the bathroom and stuff. So then, he made a pose infront of me and asked me out of the blue, "What is this?". I said, "The Heisman Trophy". He was shocked beyond words that I knew what the Heisman Trophy was, let alone what it looks like. He goes to the mall and comes home with mega-expensive diamond earrings! He was so happy - I mean, okay, I just had a baby, that didn't trigger him to go to the mall to buy earrings.

The thing is - I know he loves football with a passion. So, I read up on it, sit down infront of the TV once in a while (I will be reading a book or working on my computer next to him, but I still get to hear stuff and watch important going ons), join fantasy leagues just get me interested in the season... because I love him - not because he asked me to! So that when we're stuck in the car while driving 1000 miles to visit my family, he can yack on and on and on about football because I can yack back at him about it and we have lots of things to talk about and sometimes argue about (because I'm anti-Tom-Brady because he left Moynahan while pregnant while my husband is a big Brady fan because he can play good football)... He doesn't expect me to do anything footballish even after 13 years of marriage, I just do it because I want to. And he finally figured out I don't like jewelry, so he doesn't buy me diamonds anymore! I never expected him to remember I don't like jewelry even after I tell him so. He equates jewelry with lots of love in his brain - the more expensive, the more love. But, I knew everytime he comes home with another expensive diamond earrings he was thinking of me - that's the only thing that mattered.

Do I demand stuff from him? Sometimes - but I know it's stuff he doesn't struggle doing. Like, there will never be a time when I would ask him to give up football for me no matter how much I hate football.

Edited April 25, 2011 by anatess

[Guest mormonmusic]

Anatess -- you are a remarkable woman, with a remarkable marriage! And I mean truly mean it!!!

[Guest]

Anatess -- you are a remarkable woman, with a remarkable marriage! And I mean truly mean it!!!

Whoa... I did tell you we struggled for almost 10 years on that intimacy issue and we still have my anger management issues to deal with until today... so yeah, it's not peaches and cream Disney Princess love story, not by a long shot. It's a lot of work... but, I can truly say, I'm living in my happily ever after fairy tale... even when I'm throwing plates...

But yes, thank you very much for the compliment. I'm not really that remarkable. I just try very hard to be one.

[TopGear-head]

Good night, that's a lot of responses!!! Sorry for not responding, everyone. I never got any email notifications to replies. So naturally it means a lot to me that you have taken the time to respond. I'll do a proper post when i get some time.

Just an update, so u can have an idea of what's happened- the proverbial $#€¥ has hit the fan!

MormonMusic man, you and I need to talk sometime! It's very comforting to know that someone else has had this problem too. I felt so alone. No one really understands what it's like, unless you go through it.

Thank u all for your responses. I'll try to address you when I can. But seriously dude! Small world!

After reading over this again, i feel impressed to expound a little on what transpired. About a week ago, I come home to a wife who sat me down and read a letter she had written to me about her love for me. She then proceeded to ask me point blank about my fidelity. ( a week prior she did a similar thing where she asked if i even wanted to be with her and not sure about my feelings, I said "IDK") we separated for a day so she could collect her thoughts.

anyway, she then proceeded to read a couple of messages from my email from the OW.

(I SHOULD WARN YOU NOW- I DON'T NEED ANY LECTURES OR GUILT TRIPS ABOUT WHAT I'VE DONE. I APPRECIATE THE SUPPORT IN THIS, BUT TRUST ME, NO ONE CAN BEAT ME UP LIKE I CAN!)

So i came clean to her about the OW. She then told me she had involved the bishop about an hour prior, "not to tattle-tail" but so she could talk about her feelings. the next day we had a meeting with the bishop, and of course i feel bad about what i've done. i was pretty emotional about it. counseling has been set up for us and she has agreed. which is surprising given her previous response a few years ago.

Here's my problem with the whole thing- I broke things off with this woman at the request of my wife and the bishop. she was very understanding, but it was hard as hell (pardon me) for me to do. we had always spoken about how it couldn't work, and we understood the reality. we had both grown attached to the dream of "US". this last week has been a living hell of stress, and anxiety. I feel horrible for hurting my wife ( I'm not a complete monster) but i also feel terrible for breaking things off with the OW. I still want to be with her. We developed a strong connection that was taken from me. I'm having a hard time with it. we agreed it wasn't really an option right now, but i still have this desire to run to her. i admit, I love her. part of me will always love her, and want her to be mine.

I wasn't ready for any of this. i was still trying to sort out my feelings for my wife, and if i would leave her. so you can see the $#!* really hit the fan this week. I'm a little sick of the people close to the situation telling me i need to move on, and try to overcome my feelings for her. If you haven't gone thru this, it's hard to understand the longing and heartache. it seems like all this has been a forced repentance process, that i'm not really ready for. just a little peak into the storm of emotion that has been pulling me down this week.

again, thank you for all your advice. it has helped more than you know. this is all i have time for today. i will try to get back to address each of your posts, but i don't know when .

[ryanh]

IMO, you and your wife need to read His Needs, His Needs by Dr. Harley. He well describes why you are having such a hard time letting go of the OW, and what you need to do to make your marriage viable.