Evidence Of The Book Of Mormon

[Traveler]

In 1Nephi I have personally counted over 100 facts mentioned in the Book of Mormon that indicate historical, geographical, political, social and religious accuracy for both time and place of the Book of Mormon in the Middle East. None of the 100 plus facts were known in America when the Book of Mormon was translated by Joseph Smith. That is astonishing evidence for anyone on a quest for truth.

In a quick review of a few facts I have previously mentioned on this forum, there is the accurate naming of ancient trails, several places where water is to be found in Arabia, the identification of “borders” near the Red Sea, a river that flows year round into the Red Sea, the “Tree of Life”, and a extremely accurate description of a place known as the valley of Lemuel and also the “land Bountiful”. Some may think anyone can think of white fruit of a tree of life as a religious symbol without any connected experience but they cannot give a single example of such a symbol without any known reference. My point is that the tree of life symbol was created by example that was demonstrated by the time and place of Lehi and the Book of Mormon uses the symbol in a manner that is 100% consistent with the time and place of Lehi. Why is this such a difficult concept?

In addition there are numerous collateral facts that are not directly involved with the Book of Mormon that still indicate it’s accuracy. Once again I will give an example. When a Christian pilgrim explores the many places to see throughout the Holy Land they will get a feel for a time and a place quite foreign to our American society. One place of interest in our discussion is a cave on the outskirts of Jerusalem. It is called the cave of Lehi. It is not called the cave of Lehi because of the Book of Mormon. In fact there is almost no reason to even associate the cave directly with the Book of Mormon or anything to do with the LDS. Then why is it called the cave of Lehi and how does it help the Book of Mormon?

The naming of the cave comes from an ancient picture graph of a jawbone of a horse, mule or donkey in the cave. Such a jawbone is an Egyptian hieroglyphic of the Hebrew pronunciation of the Egyptian name Lehi. The one thing this cave demonstrates is that the name Lehi was anciently known and used with an Egyptian base by the Hebrews that occupied Jerusalem. How did Joseph Smith know of such proper Hebrew names in 1830 in America? And how did he know that there is an Egyptian hieroglyphic connection (reformed Egyptian) among the Hebrews that had their own written language? The Book of Mormon is a historically accurate document that identified exactly how such mix was utilized among the Jews.

Are the facts concerning Lehi’s cave false as I have presented them? Anti’s have not given a single exception to the historical accuracy of the Book of Mormon as it relates to exact known places in Arabia. Only excuses. And in light of the facts will they admit that the Book of Mormon revealed true historical fact about Arabia that was not known in America in 1830? With the truth in front of them they will refuse it. Where is the evidence that Joseph made up the story of Lehi leaving Jerusalem? Where are the obvious historical flaws that are out of time and place of Arabia? There are none. And there is a mountain of facts - of which I have just scratched the surface.

The Traveler

Another historical reference from the Book of Mormon. Before I begin I would point out that in 1830 little was known of ancient Egypt. Egyptian text could not be accurately translated or deciphered at the time of Joseph Smith. No one knew anything about Egyptian literary forms. But lucky for us we do know something of Egyptian literary forms today. I would like to introduce the readers to the classic Egyptian Colophon literary form. The Egyptian Colophon is found at the beginning of Egyptian based literature contained three essential elements:

1. It begins with the arthur giving their name.

2. Following the identification of the arthur the virtues and importance of the arthur’s parents are extolled.

3. Concludes with assurance that the literature was written by the very hand of the arthur.

Now observe 1Nephi 1:1-3 “I Nephi, having been born of goodly parents, therefore I was taught somewhat in all the learning of my father; and having seen many afflictions in the course of my days, nevertheless, having been highly favored of the Lord in all my days; yea, having had a great knowledge of the goodness and the mysteries of G-d, therefore I make a record of my preceedings in my days.

Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.

And I know that the record which I make is true; and I make it with mine own hand; and I make it according to my knowledge.

Is this another lucky guess? What are the chances of such a lucky guess. Can anyone produce another such lucky guess where someone happened to write using the Egyptian Colophon literary form by accident or guess before the form was even known to exist?

The Traveler

[Maureen]

One place of interest in our discussion is a cave on the outskirts of Jerusalem. It is called the cave of Lehi. It is not called the cave of Lehi because of the Book of Mormon. In fact there is almost no reason to even associate the cave directly with the Book of Mormon or anything to do with the LDS. Then why is it called the cave of Lehi and how does it help the Book of Mormon?

The naming of the cave comes from an ancient picture graph of a jawbone of a horse, mule or donkey in the cave. Such a jawbone is an Egyptian hieroglyphic of the Hebrew pronunciation of the Egyptian name Lehi. The one thing this cave demonstrates is that the name Lehi was anciently known and used with an Egyptian base by the Hebrews that occupied Jerusalem. How did Joseph Smith know of such proper Hebrew names in 1830 in America?...

The Philistines went up and invaded Judah. They arrayed themselves for battle in Lehi. (Judges 15:9)

Joseph Smith owned a Bible.

Are the facts concerning Lehi’s cave false as I have presented them?

Khirbet Beit Lei (Mormon Connection)

Some members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe the site's name refers to Lehi, a Prophet in the Book of Mormon. They argue that the cave and inscriptions parallel Lehi's story of flight from Jerusalem and hiding from Laban's servants, and that the ships fit with Lehi's sea-journey to North America[1]. Additionally, they claim that statements made by a local Bedouin and partly repeated by another villager indicate a tradition of the place's name referring to an ancient prophet named Lei.

Other FARMS and Mormon scholars dispute any connection due to a lack of linguistic or other evidence. Among their arguments: that the Arabic Lei and Hebrew Lehi are borne of different roots and that Nephi wouldn't have had knowledge of his shipbuilding until many years after his flight from Jerusalem[2]. Another interviewer of the Bedouin's account found it to be only partially consistent with the version presented by advocates of a connection[3].

Despite the debate, the site has remained a popular destination for Mormon tourists in the Holy Land.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khirbet_Beit_Lei

From Sunstone Magazine Issue No: 51,July 1985, the article is titled:

LESSONS LEARNED FROM LEHI'S CAVE

By William A. Johnson

(the article is too long to paste, here's the link - scroll down to title of article)

http://www.sunstoneonline.com/magazine/sea...ble/Issue51.asp

M.

[begood2]

Traveler,

Thank you for your post. I find it very interesting. :)

Maureen,

Thank you for the information it is interesting! :)

[Ray]

Traveler,

Let me just play along for a minute, and let's pretend that the Book of Mormon actually is true.

So what? Seriously, who cares? What does it matter?

Quite simply, it would mean the Book of Mormon is another source of truth, for those who want to know the truth, or all the truth they can possibly learn while they try to learn even more about God... who is the greatest source of all truth... which is why I learn from Him.

Don't you want to know more about God, Jason? (I am asking as if I don't know)

[Jason]

<div class='quotemain'>

Traveler,

Let me just play along for a minute, and let's pretend that the Book of Mormon actually is true.

So what? Seriously, who cares? What does it matter?

Quite simply, it would mean the Book of Mormon is another source of truth...."

Ok. So what? So we have yet another book on the same subject. Big deal. Then what? Even if it were true, do you think that the BOM alone justifies all the rest of Mormonism? If so, how and why?

[Guest ApostleKnight]

do you think that the BOM alone justifies all the rest of Mormonism? If so, how and why?

Anyone who bites on this worm deserves the hook in their gills. :)

Note: worm doesn't refer to Jason, but to his baited question

[prisonchaplain]

<div class='quotemain'>

do you think that the BOM alone justifies all the rest of Mormonism? If so, how and why?

Anyone who bites on this worm deserves the hook in their gills. :)

Note: worm doesn't refer to Jason, but to his baited question

IMHO, if the BoM were a true revelation from God, it might impact Christians who are not LDS more than it would LDS Church members. Just a thought.

[Ray]

I think it might be somebody else’s turn to talk to you now, Jason, but since I’m now here, and nobody else has answered your question, I’ll share a few thoughts on this subject… while realizing that I’m talking to someone who knows the Bible alone doesn’t justify Christianity and all of the many churches on Earth.

Once someone knows the Book of Mormon is truly what it claims to be, they will know it was translated by (someone), and since nobody else but Joseph Smith claimed to translate that record, they will know it was translated by Joseph.

Which then means they will know that Joseph Smith was the person who was given some gifts from God to translate that record into our language, since Joseph didn’t know the language, referred to as reformed Egyptian, and nobody else living on Earth then did either.

Which then means they will know that Joseph Smith was the person referred to in the Book of Mormon who would restore all of those truths to this Earth.

Which then means they will know that Joseph Smith was the person who had authority from God to restore our Lord’s church on this Earth… through all the revelations he received from our Lord, which are contained in the book of Doctrine & Covenants.

Which then means they will know that the true Church of Jesus Christ is led by our Lord through revelations that are received from our Lord by His prophets.

Or in other words, that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true church of Christ, and was first organized with revelations from our Lord to Joseph.

Okay? I think that's good enough for you now. And let's see. That makes 386 times so far. :)

Oops. Sorry Tommy. I didn't see the response you gave to Jason.

[Jason]

<div class='quotemain'>

do you think that the BOM alone justifies all the rest of Mormonism? If so, how and why?

Anyone who bites on this worm deserves the hook in their gills. :)

Note: worm doesn't refer to Jason, but to his baited question

If it is a "hook" then why are you still LDS?

Seriously, if the BOM is, in fact, a true, historical record of some native american tribe or tribes that have yet to be discovered, then why should that "fact" alone mean that anything Joseph Smith ever said or did become "true"?

(Off subject: I'll be honest here, I'd have an easier time believe the BOM were true than I would the Doctrine and Covenants. Those "revelations" are words of convenience if I ever read any.)

[Jason]

Ray, I've edited my reply, because I want you to focus on one thing specifically:

Which then means they will know that Joseph Smith was the person referred to in the Book of Mormon who would restore all of those truths to this Earth.

First, where does the Book of Mormon "testify" of Joseph Smith.

Second, if (and I stress that) the BoM does testify of JS, how do you know that Smith didn't write that into the text to make himself look good?

Third, which truths specifically were supposed to be restored by Smith as outlined in the BoM?

Im sure I don't need to remind you to quote each book and verse.

Thank you.

[Ray]

Ray: Once someone knows the Book of Mormon is truly what it claims to be, they will know it was translated by (someone), and since nobody else but Joseph Smith claimed to translate that record, they will know it was translated by Joseph.

Which then means they will know that Joseph Smith was the person who was given some gifts from God to translate that record into our language, since Joseph didn’t know the language, referred to as reformed Egyptian, and nobody else living on Earth then did either.

Jason: Ok. I'll play along. So far, I can agree...

Ray: Which then means they will know that Joseph Smith was the person referred to in the Book of Mormon who would restore all of those truths to this Earth.

Jason: Which truths specifically? Please quote.

I'd rather have you simply read and study the book, while asking God to give you His wisdom.

Ray: Which then means they will know that Joseph Smith was the person who had authority from God to restore our Lord’s church on this Earth… through all the revelations he received from our Lord, which are contained in the book of Doctrine & Covenants.

Jason: So you assert that if the BOM is true, then somehow that gives Joseph Smith the right to assert that everything else he taught was true. Based on these as yet uncited sources in the BOM?

Things are starting to sound a wee bit circular....

Not quite. Go back and read what I said again. Or, to put it to you again... the fact that Joseph Smith received help from God to translate the Book of Mormon, which contains many truths from and about God, and that Joseph Smith fulfilled the prophecies in the Book of Mormon concerning who would restore those truths and the authority that person would have, make him the prophet the Book of Mormon declares would come forth in the latter days to restore those truths to this Earth to restore God's church on this Earth.

Ray: Which then means they will know that the true Church of Jesus Christ is led by our Lord through revelations that are received from our Lord by His prophets.

Jason: That's a slippery slope Ray. How do you go from Joseph Smith being a true prophet to the LDS church being God's true Church? Since Brigham Young just took over without being appointed by Smith, I fail to see the connection.

Yeah. I'm not surprised you don't see it. But Brighams' appointment was authorized by our Lord through the revelations our Lord gave to Joseph, which are contained in the Doctrine & Covenants revealing God's order of authority in the Church.

Maybe it would help you to read it all again? Nah, it couldn't be that easy. Or maybe, just maybe, it could. :)

And btw, I saw your edited post, asking me to give you quotes, but I'm not going to do your homework for you... so just read and study the book(s) again while asking God to share His wisdom with you.

[Jason]

And btw, I saw your edited post, asking me to give you quotes, but I'm not going to do your homework for you... so just read and study the book(s) again while asking God to share His wisdom with you.

Don't wimp out on me Ray. Give me the dang quotes please. If you're going to make the assertion, you should provide the proof.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

If it is a "hook" then why are you still LDS?

The Book of Mormon isn't a hook, Jason. Your question was. I know that regardless of what anyone says you'll reject it or belittle it or toss it aside with existential ease. Not that you're an existentialist. I just know you know more about the BoM than most here, which is why I'm not getting into a question whose answer you grasp far better than lots of posters here. Peace out, bro.

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

And btw, I saw your edited post, asking me to give you quotes, but I'm not going to do your homework for you... so just read and study the book(s) again while asking God to share His wisdom with you.

Don't wimp out on me Ray. Give me the dang quotes please. If you're going to make the assertion, you should provide the proof.

Whatasa matter? Is your memory failing you?

Okay, here you go, but I'm deducting 10 points from your grade. :)

the coming of Joseph Smith

[Jason]

<div class='quotemain'>

If it is a "hook" then why are you still LDS?

The Book of Mormon isn't a hook, Jason. Your question was. I know that regardless of what anyone says you'll reject it or belittle it or toss it aside with existential ease. Not that you're an existentialist. I just know you know more about the BoM than most here, which is why I'm not getting into a question whose answer you grasp far better than lots of posters here. Peace out, bro.

Actually, AK, Im not afraid of the truth. If somehow, some way, the Book of Mormon were proved true, I'd embrace it. I wouldn't fight against it. Now, that doesn't mean I'd join the LDS Church again. You'd still have to prove that Smith didn't invent the rest of his doctrine, that "god" actually appeared, etc, etc.

On the other hand, I know plenty of people who are so afraid of the "truth," that they are unwilling to even consider a view or belief that is contrary to one that they presently hold.

[prisonchaplain]

On the other hand, I know plenty of people who are so afraid of the "truth," that they are unwilling to even consider a view or belief that is contrary to one that they presently hold.

Is this one of those "blue pill / red pill" scenarios???

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Actually, AK, Im not afraid of the truth.

Never said you were Jason. I was referring to the fact that you left the LDS church, and hence probably wouldn't care too much what anyone said in defense of the Book of Mormon. Simple observation, nothing more.

[Lindy]

Traveler,

Let me just play along for a minute, and let's pretend that the Book of Mormon actually is true.

So what? Seriously, who cares? What does it matter?

Jason,

Who cares? I'm sure that there are a lot of people who care, people who have read the BOM and walked away from it's teachings thinking..... this can't be real.

What does it matter? The truth always matters.... it's what we do with the truth that counts. It is a lot easier to live with the truth than to live with the wondering of.... is it... or isn't it real?

Well, not that it matters .... but I do care about the truth.... what is true for me helps me get thru my life without wondering.... what if? I get tired of questioning things.... it is a relief to know something is there rock solid and not going anywhere. I'm talking about the basic truths that I have about life and faith.... the truth as I know it... and I am safe and secure in those truths.

[Jason]

<div class='quotemain'>

Actually, AK, Im not afraid of the truth.

Never said you were Jason. I was referring to the fact that you left the LDS church, and hence probably wouldn't care too much what anyone said in defense of the Book of Mormon. Simple observation, nothing more.

Just so you know, I didn't leave because of the Book of Mormon. IMO, it's one of the better things about Mormonism.

<div class='quotemain'>

Traveler,

Let me just play along for a minute, and let's pretend that the Book of Mormon actually is true.

So what? Seriously, who cares? What does it matter?

Jason,

Who cares? I'm sure that there are a lot of people who care, people who have read the BOM and walked away from it's teachings thinking..... this can't be real.

What does it matter? The truth always matters.... it's what we do with the truth that counts. It is a lot easier to live with the truth than to live with the wondering of.... is it... or isn't it real?

Well, not that it matters .... but I do care about the truth.... what is true for me helps me get thru my life without wondering.... what if? I get tired of questioning things.... it is a relief to know something is there rock solid and not going anywhere. I'm talking about the basic truths that I have about life and faith.... the truth as I know it... and I am safe and secure in those truths.

I think the Tao Te Ching is "true" too. But if and when someone proves that Lao Tzu didn't write that book, it will not matter to me. It's what it teaches that counts. Not whether it's historically accurate.

See what I mean?

[TruthTeller69]

I think the bottom line to all this is:

The BOM is true because it says it is!!

The Bible is true because it says it is!!

It all comes down to personal faith.

My faith is real and "true" to me.... but someone else could have as strong a faith in something else they believe to be "true"

Its a Battle of faith not fact!!!

[Serg]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

do you think that the BOM alone justifies all the rest of Mormonism? If so, how and why?

Anyone who bites on this worm deserves the hook in their gills. :)

Note: worm doesn't refer to Jason, but to his baited question

If it is a "hook" then why are you still LDS?

Seriously, if the BOM is, in fact, a true, historical record of some native american tribe or tribes that have yet to be discovered, then why should that "fact" alone mean that anything Joseph Smith ever said or did become "true"?

(Off subject: I'll be honest here, I'd have an easier time believe the BOM were true than I would the Doctrine and Covenants. Those "revelations" are words of convenience if I ever read any.)

Well, it is a hook(the question), for we know that most of our theology is not contained there. Even so, if you ask me why am I still in the Lds church, well, after a WHILE studying and thinking concerning each bielief and comparison to general christianity, although a lot is circumstancial, and a lot is plainly not from God, there is something that lingers in my heart and mind, and that is the doctrine of the Deity. No other christian Church has our concept of God, so coherent, so philosophically well constructed, that, as it also makes sense with the Bible more than what christian themselves really believe, I think is worth the try.

I condemn that people conform themselves in their quest for Truth to the mere "burning" in the bossom, such a thing is damnable. But, as the Lord has said, the heart is more perverse than all things, who shall know it?, truly He touches our heart in order to "impress" us, but it is the mind journey, the study effort, the logical and truthfuls factors which shuld give us a testimony. I tell you, if it were not because of the doctrine we hold in respect of Christology I would not be here, cause my "testimony" of the Church(the burning in de bossom) is there cocnerning few things alone, but my mind, my mind is in every respect of what Smith taught concerning Christology, but you really want to know?

I do not have a testimony of the Leaders, I do not have a testimony of the Prophets, I do not have a testimony of so many things that i find here incoherent, but the Idea of God as i find it here, and the peace of mind in that respect, is overwhelming.

So the expression of "hook" here is well used, but it doesnt involve that we cant ackowledge falsehoods in our beloved prophets, for indeed they contained such, but that although some things do not(or DID not) go well, th eVITAL thing here, does work and DID work well.

[Jason]

...if you ask me why am I still in the Lds church, well, after a WHILE studying and thinking concerning each belief and comparison to general Christianity, although a lot is circumstancial, and a lot is plainly not from God, there is something that lingers in my heart and mind, and that is the doctrine of the Deity. No other Christian church has our concept of God, so coherent, so philosophically well constructed, that, as it also makes sense with the Bible more than what christian themselves really believe, I think is worth the try.... I tell you, if it were not because of the doctrine we hold in respect of Christology I would not be here...

Interesting reason Serg. So you believe that most of Mormon dogma is baloney, but because you like the doctrine of the godhead, you will stay LDS?

So, let me ask you (sorry to derail this thread again Traveller) what about the Holy Ghost? You stated that the LDS godhead theory was "well constructed," but how does the requirement to be a god as outlined in D&C 131 & 132, which includes the necessity of taking on a body of flesh and being sealed for all eternity fit in with the idea that a spirit personage, who has never had a body nor been married, get to be a god equal with the Father and the Son?

I mean, if you just like the christology of the godhead doctrine, then why not be a Jehovah's Witness?

I condemn that people conform themselves in their quest for Truth to the mere "burning" in the bossom, such a thing is damnable.

I wouldn't say "damnable". Maybe dumb, but not damable. B)

[Lindy]

I think the bottom line to all this is:

The BOM is true because it says it is!!

The Bible is true because it says it is!!

It all comes down to personal faith.

My faith is real and "true" to me.... but someone else could have as strong a faith in something else they believe to be "true"

Its a Battle of faith not fact!!!

And your right.... it does all come down to personal faith, and what you will continue to believe.

Even when others shove "facts" and "the truth" at you..... and expect you to give up.... I am one of those hardcore believers..... once I believe in something... or someone.... it would take an act of God to turn me away. Facts don't mean much to me.... it's how I feel inside that matters to me. Faith over facts.... It is a battle! I'll fight for faith.

[Heather]

Remember this is the Gospel Discussion forum. If you would like to discuss the views other than LDS teachings, please take it to the open forum.

[begood2]

Remember this is the Gospel Discussion forum. If you would like to discuss the views other than LDS teachings, please take it to the open forum.

Thank You Heather.