Dinosaurs, The Creative Periods and Perfection

[rubondfan2]

Originally Posted by mnn727 View Post

The 'days' of creation were periods of time -- how long? no one knows and the Church does not take a stand on a time frame other than to state they were 'creative periods', but it certainly allows time for dino's rise and fall.

Originally Posted by mnn727 View Post

The different roles science and religion play is illustrated in a study of the dinosaurs. From the fossil record it is theorized that the dinosaurs were the dominant animals on earth between 225 and 67 million years ago. Some were meat-eating, others lived on plants. Some were small, while others were gigantic, weighing up to seventy-two metric tons and growing to lengths of more than twenty-seven meters.

The existence of these animals is unquestionable, for their remains have been found in rocks all over the world. What eternal purpose they played in the creation and early history of the world is unknown. The scriptures do not discuss the subject of dinosaurs, and it is not the purpose of science to explain why they were here. We can only conclude, as Elder Talmage did, that “The whole series of chalk deposits and many of our deep-sea limestones contain the skeletal remains of animals. These lived and died, age after age, while the earth was not ready for human habitation.”Questions and Answers - Liahona Apr. 1988

So... I only just now had my mind open up to a new question around the subject of the dinosaurs. It seemed a large enough diversion from the "Church's position on Dinosaurs" thread, so I opted for creating a new thread. Mine is a two-part question.

1) Was the perfection in the Garden of Eden limited to only the Garden of Eden? Or to ask this another way; was all the area outside of the Garden imperfect and mortal? Or was the entire earth considered perfect prior to the fall? We are taught that there was no birth or death in the Garden, implying a state of perfection.

This is the springboard for my second question...

2) Was the perfected state in which Adam & Eve lived prior to partaking the fruit only realized at the point of Adam & Eve's creation? Or was each creative period created in a state of perfection consecutively until the final creative period and ultimate pinnacle creation of Man?

The reason for these questions is

-- If a state of perfection only existed within the Garden of Eden and only in the Garden of Eden AND/OR if the earth was only in a perfect state after the end of the final creative period, then I can see how the dinosaurs might have "lived and died, age after age" as Talmage says.

If the earth, however, was created perfectly throughout each creative period and up to and including the final creative period, then I do not see how dinosaurs could have "lived and died", as they would have been perfect creations just like Adam and Eve. Thus "the fall" would have brought about the mortality of ALL life, at which point we would be speculating about how the dinosaurs were destroyed after the Fall. (Perhaps during the flood?)

Anyone have some wild speculation on this? Or even better... any sources that might address these questions? I can't believe that I only now thought of this angle... I've thought a great deal on this subject. Just goes to show how much there is to learn.

Edited May 12, 2011 by rubondfan2

[rameumptom]

I agree with Talmage that only the Garden of Eden was perfected. Some have stated the earth revolved around Kolob prior to its Fall, and then literally fell to where it now is in a Telestial revolution. I think that only the Garden was in a Terrestrial or Celestial state, and fell, landing Adam and Eve on an already fallen earth. For Adam, Enoch and others, it would have seemed like the whole earth fell from their perspective.

Indeed, we've talked about this previously on this forum, as well as the Mormon Discussion Boards. You may want to check out the previous threads.

[grantstine]

The earth was created a long long time ago. The dinosaurs were not around during adam and eve. We know threw scriptures that adam and eve were created in gods image around 4,000 years before Christ. The flood was about 3,000 years before christ. They say dinosaurs are 40,000-50,000 years ago. We do not have the answers to what was all on the earth from the beginning of its creation. Cave man, etc. We do now that :God created the earth first, then created man in his own image. But we do not know how much time existed between the creation of the world and man kind in his image.

[HiJolly]

1) Was the perfection in the Garden of Eden limited to only the Garden of Eden? Or to ask this another way; was all the area outside of the Garden imperfect and mortal? Or was the entire earth considered perfect prior to the fall? We are taught that there was no birth or death in the Garden, implying a state of perfection.

Yes, although I don't think it proper to refer to the Garden as 'perfect'. It was *more* perfect than mortality, but not nearly as perfect as Heaven itself. The mortal, evolving earth was not really "outside", but rather "below". The Garden is at a higher level of being than the mortal earth is. Just like spirit prison & paradise are here, but at a different level of being...

This is the springboard for my second question...

2) Was the perfected state in which Adam & Eve lived prior to partaking the fruit only realized at the point of Adam & Eve's creation? Or was each creative period created in a state of perfection consecutively until the final creative period and ultimate pinnacle creation of Man?

First all things were created in terms of concept & blueprint. That's a very high state. Then things dropped in state to the constructional level, phrased in the temple as being "created spiritually". That's an intermediate state. Lastly the earth was created mortally, physically. In the Fall, Adam & Eve dropped from the intermediate state to the lowest state, and for the first time appeared in the flesh on the mortal earth. Where there had been a ton of living & dying goin' on for a very long time.

At the intermediate level of the Garden, though, there was no time (as we know it, anyway), age, genetic drift, etc. All was static, except for the thoughts and actions of Adam, Eve, Lucifer & God.

HiJolly

Edited May 12, 2011 by HiJolly
clarification on 'time'

[HiJolly]

The earth was created a long long time ago. The dinosaurs were not around during adam and eve. We know threw scriptures that adam and eve were created in gods image around 4,000 years before Christ. The flood was about 3,000 years before christ. They say dinosaurs are 40,000-50,000 years ago. We do not have the answers to what was all on the earth from the beginning of its creation. Cave man, etc. We do now that :God created the earth first, then created man in his own image. But we do not know how much time existed between the creation of the world and man kind in his image.

Sorry to be a fly in the ointment, but the "4,000" figure was a guess made by an old clergyman by the name of Usher. Some say Ussher. And I think all of your timings given are *highly* suspect.

For example, your flood appears to have happened right in the middle of the Egyptian, Mesopotamian and Chinese civilizations. But they seem to have missed the actual occurrence of the flood, and simply kept on, business as usual. Odd, eh?

HiJolly

[grantstine]

This is taught as church doctrine in church manuals. Which are published by the church. Dates are approx. But reliable. Church doctrine.

[HiJolly]

This is taught as church doctrine in church manuals. Which are published by the church. Dates are approx. But reliable. Church doctrine.

Ooops! *Not* Church doctrine. Manuals and the Ensign and General Conference talks are NOT doctrine.

Approaching Mormon Doctrine - LDS Newsroom

3 sources of Doctrine:

"This doctrine resides in (1)the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), (2)official declarations and proclamations, and (3)the Articles of Faith. "

HiJolly

[grantstine]

Welcome to earth. The church manuals and time lines are approved by our prophets and apostles. I guess your not a member of the church, my bad.

[HiJolly]

I know it's hard when you've been taught these things and they're just not true. Nevertheless, the Church is true, once you root out all the stuff that just isn't so.

HiJolly

[grantstine]

Records and time lines??. I do not get it. This is an easy one. Lets agree to disagree on this one. Thanks for your comments. I had a couple of laughs.

[Vort]

Nevertheless, the Church is true, once you root out all the stuff that just isn't so.

Awesome quote. I love how Zen-like it is in its quality of being simultaneously true and useless. Or maybe anti-Zen-like.

Reminds me of the old joke:

A guy walking through a field hears a voice: "Hey! Can you help me?" He looks around and sees nothing, then hears the voice again: "Up here!" Looking up, he sees a hot air balloon floating about a hundred feet off the ground. So he calls up, "What do you want?"

The balloonist says, "Can you tell me where I am?" The guy responds, "You're in a hot air balloon about a hundred feet off the ground."

The balloonist calls back, "You're an engineer, aren't you?" The guy says, "How did you know?" The balloonist responds, "What you told me was true but utterly useless. You have just wasted my time and given me no help at all. Thanks for nothing!"

The guy on the ground calls back, "You're a government worker, aren't you?" The balloonist replies, "How did you know?" The guy on the ground answers, "You're surrounded by hot air, drifting aimlessly, without a clue. You're in exactly the same position that you were five minutes ago before you ever spoke with me, only now it's my fault!"

[HiJolly]

You are now at the crossroads. You can sit back and say "I'm comfortable with what I know" and do nothing.

Or, you can say to yourself, "How is it that this guy has such a different opinion? What is he talking about? Why does he think he's right? What information might he know that I do not?" None of these are comfortable thoughts, but yet if you search out the answers, you thereby demonstrate your humility and teachable nature.

If you can understand and even make your opponents argument for them, to *their* satisfaction, chances are that your point of view, be what it may, is accurate.

HiJolly

Edited May 12, 2011 by HiJolly

[HiJolly]

Awesome quote. I love how Zen-like it is in its quality of being simultaneously true and useless. Or maybe anti-Zen-like.

Reminds me of the old joke:

A guy walking through a field hears a voice: "Hey! Can you help me?" He looks around and sees nothing, then hears the voice again: "Up here!" Looking up, he sees a hot air balloon floating about a hundred feet off the ground. So he calls up, "What do you want?"

The balloonist says, "Can you tell me where I am?" The guy responds, "You're in a hot air balloon about a hundred feet off the ground."

The balloonist calls back, "You're an engineer, aren't you?" The guy says, "How did you know?" The balloonist responds, "What you told me was true but utterly useless. You have just wasted my time and given me no help at all. Thanks for nothing!"

The guy on the ground calls back, "You're a government worker, aren't you?" The balloonist replies, "How did you know?" The guy on the ground answers, "You're surrounded by hot air, drifting aimlessly, without a clue. You're in exactly the same position that you were five minutes ago before you ever spoke with me, only now it's my fault!"

Good joke.

Life is full of paradox. My fav. Zen-ism is "When you meet the Buddha in the road, kill him!" So true.

HiJolly

[john doe]

This is taught as church doctrine in church manuals. Which are published by the church. Dates are approx. But reliable. Church doctrine.

LDS Church approved manuals are not doctrine. While they attempt to teach doctrine, and usually succeed, they are not scriptural. And yes, they can be found to have errors or the ideas and interpretations of men mixed in with them, even though they have undergone intense vetting processes.

[rubondfan2]

Thanks for the few of you who jumped in and shed some light on this subject for me. I appreciated too, the speculatory comments seeking to address the "how" this may have worked for Adam & Eve.

Looks like I've got a little studying to do; especially around Talmage's teachings. I wasn't aware that he taught that only the Garden of Eden was in a Terrestrial/Celestial state. If this is the case, then all else around cavemen, dinosaurs and forgotten species sure makes a lot more sense.

Although... even as I type this, the following thought goes through my head; how was the creation of the earth anything less than perfect? We read (and hear, for us temple going folks) of the creative periods of the earth. All things being made spiritual followed by physical. Are the Father and the Son capable of creating anything that is not perfect? What caused the fall of the earth prior to Adam & Eve in the Garden? Were Adam & Eve introduced to an existing, fallen earth? But then how does that jive with "here is matter unorganized... let us form it and call it earth" (paraphrased a bit)?

So many questions... guess I'll do some digging in the past threads around this topic.

Thanks again!!

[Guest]

Welcome to earth. The church manuals and time lines are approved by our prophets and apostles. I guess your not a member of the church, my bad.

I know it's hard when you've been taught these things and they're just not true. Nevertheless, the Church is true, once you root out all the stuff that just isn't so.

HiJolly

There was a time when I was Catholic (back in 1992) when we had to face the reality of the Catholic church vindicating Galileo. If you don't know, Galileo got formally accused of heresy for stating that the earth revolves around the sun back in the 1600's...

So yeah, Church manuals saying it's 4,000 years ago? Means nothing. LDS may be the true church but it's truth does not depend on the exact year/timeframe of the great flood. Because whether it happened 4,000 years ago or yesterday it doesn't change the truth that Jesus is our salvation and the Priesthood holds the keys.

Science only serves to give us a better understanding of church events.

[HiJolly]

Thanks for the few of you who jumped in and shed some light on this subject for me. I appreciated too, the speculatory comments seeking to address the "how" this may have worked for Adam & Eve.

Speculation is us! :-)

Looks like I've got a little studying to do; especially around Talmage's teachings. I wasn't aware that he taught that only the Garden of Eden was in a Terrestrial/Celestial state. If this is the case, then all else around cavemen, dinosaurs and forgotten species sure makes a lot more sense.

Love Talmage.

Although... even as I type this, the following thought goes through my head; how was the creation of the earth anything less than perfect?

the materials and setting are not perfect, and there is a rumor that some of us might of helped -- don't think we were perfect either...

We read (and hear, for us temple going folks) of the creative periods of the earth. All things being made spiritual followed by physical. Are the Father and the Son capable of creating anything that is not perfect?

IF they had created, then that would be a good question, but they didn't create. The biblical word "qnh" reflects two originally separate verbal roots, i.e. the general Semitic *qnw > qnh = “acquire/establish" and the second Ugaritic/Canaanite *qny > qnh = “create” is incorrect and reflects a failure by contemporary readers to recognize the lack of creation ex nihilo in ancient Semitic conceptions.

What caused the fall of the earth prior to Adam & Eve in the Garden?

The physical earth as organized here in un-glorified telestial-dom was organized in a fallen state, after first being imperfectly organized in a spiritual terrestrial state. Neither were perfect environments.

Were Adam & Eve introduced to an existing, fallen earth?

Yes.

But then how does that jive with "here is matter unorganized... let us form it and call it earth" (paraphrased a bit)?

Adam, Eve & the Garden = Terrestrial spiritual state of being.

Earth formed from chaos = Telestial physical state of being.

Both happening concurrently

So many questions... guess I'll do some digging in the past threads around this topic.

Thanks again!!

Well worth pondering and studying! Keep it up. But don't force any decisions where they don't fit.

HiJolly

[mnn727]

This is taught as church doctrine in church manuals. Which are published by the church. Dates are approx. But reliable. Church doctrine.

Sorry, you are incorrect, the manuals attempt to explain doctrine but they in themselves are NOT doctrinal.

I'm know you believe they are, possibly because someone told you that in a class, but it is incorrect.

[mnn727]

Here is something to think about (and it's speculation on my part),

Its possible the Garden of Eden was not on Earth and Adam and Ever when kicked out were sent to this Earth.

Spculation but would explain a lot. (and I'm sure I'll be having people jump all over me for saying it)

I think a lot of people (including early G.A.'s) have tried to explain and reconcile everything even when they went a bit too far with their pronouncements. Not everything has to be explained in the here and now and I'd bet that a lot of what we believe will turn out to be not so.

[Traveler]

This always interest me - not what people say but what excuses they make for what they say.

1. I do not believe the understanding of “perfect” applies very well to Eden. Anciently the understanding of Perfect was “complete”. Eden was not complete - and regardless of what someone may be thinking - if Eden was not complete it was not perfect. Adam and Eve could not be complete and they could be like the G-ds knowing good from evil.

2. Eden is symbolic of living in the presents of G-d - we know that without opposition one cannot distinguish anything from its opposite. There is no evil in G-d - living with G-d, of necessity prevents any understanding of evil.

3. I believe that the creation is symbolic of the “Beginning” of covenants - not the beginning of things. The order and time frame as stated has to do with covenants not with the science of how things came into being.

4. I believe G-d created you and me and for that matter everybody else and this includes Adam and Eve. As far as the physical means G-d employed to create life? Well as best as I understand -Adam and Eve were created in the exact same manner as everybody else. We all came from dust and to dust we will all return. If there is even the slightest reference to any thing in scripture that would remotely suggest that G-d has changed his methods of creating - I would so much like to see such scripture but somehow I have missed it and have never been able to find where the idea came from.

The Traveler

[Blackmarch]

So... I only just now had my mind open up to a new question around the subject of the dinosaurs. It seemed a large enough diversion from the "Church's position on Dinosaurs" thread, so I opted for creating a new thread. Mine is a two-part question.

1) Was the perfection in the Garden of Eden limited to only the Garden of Eden? Or to ask this another way; was all the area outside of the Garden imperfect and mortal? Or was the entire earth considered perfect prior to the fall? We are taught that there was no birth or death in the Garden, implying a state of perfection.

we don't know. Generally its assumed that the physical process imitated and followed the spiritual process given in the first chapter of genesis (see the beginning of chapter two for when the physical process started). And if the physical part followed in the same manner as the spiritual, we do not know if it involved the whole world or just the Garden of eden. I think it's generally assumed that it involved the whole world as when A&E were booted from the garden the bible says thats when death entered into the world.

This is the springboard for my second question...

2) Was the perfected state in which Adam & Eve lived prior to partaking the fruit only realized at the point of Adam & Eve's creation? Or was each creative period created in a state of perfection consecutively until the final creative period and ultimate pinnacle creation of Man?

The reason for these questions is

-- If a state of perfection only existed within the Garden of Eden and only in the Garden of Eden AND/OR if the earth was only in a perfect state after the end of the final creative period, then I can see how the dinosaurs might have "lived and died, age after age" as Talmage says.

If the earth, however, was created perfectly throughout each creative period and up to and including the final creative period, then I do not see how dinosaurs could have "lived and died", as they would have been perfect creations just like Adam and Eve. Thus "the fall" would have brought about the mortality of ALL life, at which point we would be speculating about how the dinosaurs were destroyed after the Fall. (Perhaps during the flood?)

Anyone have some wild speculation on this? Or even better... any sources that might address these questions? I can't believe that I only now thought of this angle... I've thought a great deal on this subject. Just goes to show how much there is to learn.

I'd like to note that adam and eve were not perfect- they were not exactly the same as God... dunno about any of the other creations tho. Nor are we told in the account that anything was made perfect at that time. Just that they were good, and that what was in the Garden of Eden was immortal at that point.

[Traveler]

The great mystery to me is not the dinosaurs. That is easy to explain and there are dozens of theories that seem to fit and give some answers. For me there are two great mysteries that I have never been able to find any answer or theory that I feel comes close to even a remote explanation.

Mystery #1: Death. We are told in scripture that prior to the fall there was no death. How did the dinosaurs become extent 100 million years ago? I am not sure many have thought through the impact of the full extent of the no death doctrine. I have never been able to reconcile what the scriptures are talking about and how that piece of information relates to the creation of things and the vast populations of plants and animals necessary for maintaining a stable planetary ecosystem. I cannot figure out how Adam and Eve were even able to eat anything and the process of necessity for digesting food without death at some level being part of the process. I have concluded that we are missing great chunks of information that relates to the physical being of Eden and I have speculated that perhaps there is far more symbolism to the story that most are willing to accept. I understand that during the millennium there will be no death. I am very interested in how that will work.

Mystery #2: Man. The evidence of man prior to the time frame of the Eden epoch is overwhelming consistent and continuous right down to today. The primary period of domestication of plants and animals took place between 12 and 20 thousand years ago. It is generally understood that the first animal domesticated was the dog and the primary purpose for such domestication was hunting. This brings back the great mystery of death. DNA shows that people today are descendent and related to people that inhabited earth prior to any time tables of Adam and Eve.

I believe Adam was the first man that was in the image and likeness of G-d and likewise Eve the first woman but I have no intelligent way of explaining how this is or could be. I can admit that physical evidence and scriptural understanding seem to diverge on this subject - However, I am not distressed over it and believe and welcome the day G-d will unwrap this mystery of man and his creation and how Adam and Eve came about.

Concerning these mysteries I am willing to concede that I do not know the answer nor have I found any religion that makes more sense of it than LDS theology that seems to me to have a be patient attitude. G-d will let us know in time - and for now deal with what we do know.

The Traveler

Edited May 18, 2011 by Traveler

[Blackmarch]

The great mystery to me is not the dinosaurs. That is easy to explain and there are dozens of theories that seem to fit and give some answers. For me there are two great mysteries that I have never been able to find any answer or theory that I feel comes close to even a remote explanation.

Mystery #1: Death. We are told in scripture that prior to the fall there was no death. How did the dinosaurs become extent 100 million years ago? I am not sure many have thought through the impact of the full extent of the no death doctrine. I have never been able to reconcile what the scriptures are talking about and how that piece of information relates to the creation of things and the vast populations of plants and animals necessary for maintaining a stable planetary ecosystem. I cannot figure out how Adam and Eve were even able to eat anything and the process of necessity for digesting food without death at some level being part of the process. I have concluded that we are missing great chunks of information that relates to the physical being of Eden and I have speculated that perhaps there is far more symbolism to the story that most are willing to accept. I understand that during the millennium there will be no death. I am very interested in how that will work.

Mystery #2: Man. The evidence of man prior to the time frame of the Eden epoch is overwhelming consistent and continuous right down to today. The primary period of domestication of plants and animals took place between 12 and 20 thousand years ago. It is generally understood that the first animal domesticated was the dog and the primary purpose for such domestication was hunting. This brings back the great mystery of death. DNA shows that people today are descendent and related to people that inhabited earth prior to any time tables of Adam and Eve.

I believe Adam was the first man that was in the image and likeness of G-d and likewise Eve the first woman but I have no intelligent way of explaining how this is or could be. I can admit that physical evidence and scriptural understanding seem to diverge on this subject - However, I am not distressed over it and believe and welcome the day G-d will unwrap this mystery of man and his creation and how Adam and Eve came about.

Concerning these mysteries I am willing to concede that I do not know the answer nor have I found any religion that makes more sense of it than LDS theology that seems to me to have a be patient attitude. G-d will let us know in time - and for now deal with what we do know.

The Traveler

Here's just something to think about.. is the death referred to physical or spiritualand is there a time/place element involved in it?

Edited May 18, 2011 by Blackmarch

[HiJolly]

The great mystery to me is not the dinosaurs. That is easy to explain and there are dozens of theories that seem to fit and give some answers. For me there are two great mysteries that I have never been able to find any answer or theory that I feel comes close to even a remote explanation.

These have troubled me also, over the years. I believe I have the answers now, but I don't think that I can convince anyone of their validity. Nor do I want to. It is a personal journey, IMO. I'm wondering, though. I thought I'd written in earlier posts in this thread, the answers to these mysteries. Obviously, you don't think so. I'm wondering why.

Mystery #1: Death. We are told in scripture that prior to the fall there was no death. How did the dinosaurs become extent 100 million years ago? I am not sure many have thought through the impact of the full extent of the no death doctrine. I have never been able to reconcile what the scriptures are talking about and how that piece of information relates to the creation of things and the vast populations of plants and animals necessary for maintaining a stable planetary ecosystem. I cannot figure out how Adam and Eve were even able to eat anything and the process of necessity for digesting food without death at some level being part of the process. I have concluded that we are missing great chunks of information that relates to the physical being of Eden and I have speculated that perhaps there is far more symbolism to the story that most are willing to accept. I understand that during the millennium there will be no death. I am very interested in how that will work.

In Yetsira there is no death; no corruption; yet there is 'time'. This is where I believe the Garden of Eden existed, on an 'earth' of a different dimension from what we experience today, and equally different from the physical Assiah-type "earth" that Adam & Eve experienced after they fell -- where there *is* death and corruption. Where we now live.

Mystery #2: Man. The evidence of man prior to the time frame of the Eden epoch is overwhelming consistent and continuous right down to today. The primary period of domestication of plants and animals took place between 12 and 20 thousand years ago. It is generally understood that the first animal domesticated was the dog and the primary purpose for such domestication was hunting. This brings back the great mystery of death. DNA shows that people today are descendent and related to people that inhabited earth prior to any time tables of Adam and Eve.

Yes -- the evidence is clear. I really enjoyed reading Jared Diamond's book Guns, Germs & Steel. It does require some thought beyond what we hear in Church to understand it, though.

I believe Adam was the first man that was in the image and likeness of G-d and likewise Eve the first woman but I have no intelligent way of explaining how this is or could be. I can admit that physical evidence and scriptural understanding seem to diverge on this subject - However, I am not distressed over it and believe and welcome the day G-d will unwrap this mystery of man and his creation and how Adam and Eve came about.

You're already mentioned an understanding of Adam & Eve's mortal (assiah) existence being defined not by physical formation, but rather by the adoption of a covenantal or priesthood role within a previously un-committed relationship with God. I see nothing wrong with that, so why do you not accept your own thought?

It used to make me quite uncomfortable to make these kinds of revisions in the Genesis/creation story(myth). Thanks to God I have worked through that reluctance and into a workable understanding. Next: Wisdom!

Concerning these mysteries I am willing to concede that I do not know the answer nor have I found any religion that makes more sense of it than LDS theology that seems to me to have a be patient attitude. G-d will let us know in time - and for now deal with what we do know.

The Traveler

If we accept all truth, we require the Holy Ghost's guidance to help us 'get it', contextualize it, to accommodate all truth within one sphere of understanding. Sometimes, previous beliefs have to be discarded, which can be really difficult, and which also requires me to keep quiet within a 'church' setting, in regards to many things. This post, then, marks a departure from that normal state which I maintain on these topics (quiet, I mean).

HiJolly

Edited May 18, 2011 by HiJolly
clarification in last paragraph

[rameumptom]

I believe there was no death in the Garden prior to the Fall. Outside in the real world, death already was ongoing.

As for Gen 1 = spiritual creation, Gen 2 = physical creation, this is a belief of some General Authorities of the past to explain the differences between the two chapters. Let's not turn it around to use it in the opposite direction, as then we get circular arguments.

In fact, many Bible scholars believe what the Documentary Hypothesis claims on them. They are two separate accounts of the Creation written by different people/groups at different times. IIRC, Genesis 1 is the account given by "J" Yahwist/Jehovah-ist, around 800 BC. Genesis 2 was written by the "P" Priest group prior to the Babylonians carrying Judah off in 600 BC.