Engagement and Law of Chastity...

[Vort]

I asked her, "What sex are they?"... Okay, so you know my problem with "proper wording".

What problem with "proper wording"? That you use it?

"Gender" is a linguistic term having to do with word usage. "Sex" refers to maleness and femaleness. Your wording was perfect, never mind how the ignorant bluenoses react.

[MarginOfError]

What problem with "proper wording"? That you use it?

"Gender" is a linguistic term having to do with word usage. "Sex" refers to maleness and femaleness. Your wording was perfect, never mind how the ignorant bluenoses react.

In fact, if you want to confuse the matter more, some social science circles have suggested that gender should be used to refer to social and psychological constructs and sex should be used to refer to biological constructs.

The reason they seek out such a distinction is to make it clear what they mean if they were to say something such as, "Subject A is of the female gender, but of the male sex." In other words, a person with male sex organs that, at least psychologically, identifies himself as a woman.

This distinction can be useful in some conversations when the subject matter requires more precise language. In general, I think that sex and gender may be used interchangeably in the majority of conversations.

[Wingnut]

What problem with "proper wording"? That you use it?

"Gender" is a linguistic term having to do with word usage. "Sex" refers to maleness and femaleness. Your wording was perfect, never mind how the ignorant bluenoses react.

I think that was anatess's point -- she used the word properly and definitely not in a vulgar sense, but was chastised because this young girl has been so conditioned to think that sex is bad, that she can't separate usage.

In fact, if you want to confuse the matter more, some social science circles have suggested that gender should be used to refer to social and psychological constructs and sex should be used to refer to biological constructs.

The reason they seek out such a distinction is to make it clear what they mean if they were to say something such as, "Subject A is of the female gender, but of the male sex." In other words, a person with male sex organs that, at least psychologically, identifies himself as a woman.

Interesting. So the phrase "gender reassignment surgery" is a misnomer?

[Dravin]

I rarely got that impression, either in Church or at home. The impression I got was, "Sex is great, but should only be expressed in marriage." And I daresay I'm older than either of you.

I wasn't trying to claim some universal experience, nor that it's designed to be the take-away message. The "Good Girl Syndrome" is not unheard of in the Church and plenty of people take the lazy way of teaching the Law of Chastity. I will be honest though and say while it's a issue I don't know exactly how common it is.

[kayne]

It varies, I imagine we're on par with many other conservative Christian denominations.

The place it should be addressed is at home/by parents, not at Church. While there probably could be more positive affirmations of sex (it's fairly easy for young adults to come away from church lessons about the Law of Chastity with the impression that 'Sex is dirty, sinful and bad, save it for the one you love.') the nuts and bolts stuff that could possibly alleviate some of the awkwardness of a honeymoon isn't the domain of Church. The Church tells parents to teach their children about sex at age appropriate levels and I suspect quite a few parents are dropping the ball. And ultimately, the first time a pair of virgins have sex is going to be awkward, it's just a question of how much.

doesnt neccesarly have to be taught in church more but more than sex is dirty needs to be mentioned. i agree parents bear the blame here mostly but the entire mormon culture seems to have an over abundance of sex is bad. heck since moving utah ive learned of an amazing term called floating....apparently its not sex if you sit there motionlessly. i learned because of this orem has the highest rate of unexpected preganacies or so my health teacher said. the fact this exists here and probably no where else is alarming and should be addressed somewhere as clearly young mormons are vastly uneducated about sex which is a fault of mom and dad and the church to some degree.

im no sex expert but still people need to learn about it. and need to know what a realistic expectation is not what i see on every movie and TV show. and people certainly need to know its ok not to test drive the car first. and they certainly need to know floating is in fact sex.

ive seriously stumbled onto some very weird sex fantasies since moving to utah. its alarming really and worse its mostly in secret.

Edited May 21, 2011 by pam

[Vort]

ive seriously stumbled onto some very weird sex fantasies since moving to utah. its alarming really and worse its mostly in secret.

I disagree. Such things should be kept very strictly in secret and never see the light of day except to be expunged.

Look at other no-longer-secret sex-related things and how normalized they've become. Even 30 years ago, a pregnant teenager and the guy who impregnated her were a shame to themselves and their families; today, it's business as usual. Fornication and promiscuity were things bantered about in locker rooms, not openly in mixed-sex gatherings.

If such things must exist, I much prefer they exist in secret.

[Wingnut]

ive seriously stumbled onto some very weird sex fantasies since moving to utah. its alarming really and worse its mostly in secret.

So, you'd rather people's weird sexual fetishes were public?

[kayne]

I disagree. Such things should be kept very strictly in secret and never see the light of day except to be expunged.

Look at other no-longer-secret sex-related things and how normalized they've become. Even 30 years ago, a pregnant teenager and the guy who impregnated her were a shame to themselves and their families; today, it's business as usual. Fornication and promiscuity were things bantered about in locker rooms, not openly in mixed-sex gatherings.

If such things must exist, I much prefer they exist in secret.

sin thrives in secrecy. bring it to light to expunge it is what im saying so people dont learn about it dark allies and fall in love it. dont have to explain it all but again more than "sex is dirty" should be said.

this stuff will happen either way might as well bring it to light so people can be informed about it and make intelligent decisions

[estradling75]

We do not need to be dragging every kink out of is hidden place to parade it in front of young/impressionable minds...

We do need to do a better job of teaching the basics. The basic physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual aspects of sex and there impact on the person and the person's partner. Once a person has a solid grasp of the basics, then when they encounter the various kinky possibilities, they will have foundation on which to correctly judge the value and impact of what they find

[kayne]

We do not need to be dragging every kink out of is hidden place to parade it in front of young/impressionable minds...

We do need to do a better job of teaching the basics. The basic physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual aspects of sex and there impact on the person and the person's partner. Once a person has a solid grasp of the basics, then when they encounter the various kinky possibilities, they will have foundation on which to correctly judge the value and impact of what they find

ya i agree with this. i wasnt saying drag everything out or meaning to sound like that using extreme cases to illustrate what you said the basics need to be understood. and likely a lack of understanding of the basics has lead to the extreme insanity of internet porn.

[Wingnut]

sin thrives in secrecy. bring it to light to expunge it is what im saying so people dont learn about it dark allies and fall in love it.

You seem to think that any sexual fetish = sin. In fact, you seem extreme enough to be one of those people who thinks that sex any way but the missionary position is sinful. The Church stays out of the married bedroom. As long as there are no third parties, and both husband and wife are comfortable with what's happening, it's no one else's business.

[kayne]

You seem to think that any sexual fetish = sin. In fact, you seem extreme enough to be one of those people who thinks that sex any way but the missionary position is sinful. The Church stays out of the married bedroom. As long as there are no third parties, and both husband and wife are comfortable with what's happening, it's no one else's business.

no i never said that. just pointing out people should be a little more informed than what they currently are. though admittely some fetishes as i pointed are very wrong(getting off on being eaten? cant tell me thats not wrong and there are some downright bizzarre stuff out there) just illustrating people should be more informed about it is all. dont have to cover all the details but again a little more than wait till marriage or its wrong should be said or yes people will discover this stuff in a dark alley and unless informed to some degree before hand wont have a clue as to where to draw the line. see fantasy does eventually cross into a sick world that invovles cheating on your spouse if you dont control it. so ya know giving people a heads up on where this stuff can lead and where to draw a line would be nice and little more than be faithful would be nice.

i mean when i recovered from porn along the way i found 60 year old men weeping over what sexual fantasy did to their lives. it started off innocent enough lets try something new and different but sooner or later lack of control and understanding and eventually fantasy just runs rampant. in fact its really how all porn and sexual addiction works. first mild stuff gives you the thrill. then eventually harder and harder and harder and nastier stuff and unless you learn to control it and stop it your walking a dangerous path. ive certainly head this from these people and a quick google search can confirm some fantasies are just blantantly deadly literally there is a certain risk of death element here so not every fantasy conceived is even healthy to try as some can get you killed with ease yet their is porn of it out there on the internet feeding a drug to see people darn near killed if not killed and getting off on it. so there certainly is a line to be drawn somewhere. not saying where that line is but i am saying people should know there is a line to be drawn and not every fantasy is ok for that very reason.

again do what you want in the bedroom just saying beware fantasy left unchecked can open a door of pain the likes you cant imagine unless youve stared it in the face and seen grown men cry. thats all im saying learn the draw the line. and have a little bit of education about it. thats all. dont need to go into all the details just want informed people so they can make rational decisions and can know before hand how to draw the line.

not all fantasy is bad just learn to keep it in its proper place is all. and in all reality. most fantasy invovles the notion women are trash. treat them like dirt and objects. so you really need to make sure you dont adopt this mindset.

not saying what you can or cannot do. just saying be cautious what doors might open is all and there is nothing wrong with being cautious. sexual sin is very easy to unleash and very hard to put back in its place and will destroy lives.

Edited May 21, 2011 by kayne

[Wingnut]

see fantasy does eventually cross into a sick world that invovles cheating on your spouse if you dont control it.

Fantasy can cross over into that area. It's not an automatic given.

i mean when i recovered from porn along the way i found 60 year old men weeping over what sexual fantasy did to their lives. it started off innocent enough lets try something new and different but sooner or later lack of control and understanding and eventually fantasy just runs rampant. in fact its really how all porn and sexual addiction works. first mild stuff gives you the thrill. then eventually harder and harder and harder and nastier stuff and unless you learn to control it and stop it your walking a dangerous path. ive certainly head this from these people and a quick google search can confirm some fantasies are just blantantly deadly literally there is a certain risk of death element here so not every fantasy conceived is even healthy to try as some can get you killed with ease yet their is porn of it out there on the internet feeding a drug to see people darn near killed if not killed and getting off on it. so there certainly is a line to be drawn somewhere. not saying where that line is but i am saying people should know there is a line to be drawn and not every fantasy is ok for that very reason.

You seem to equate sexual fantasies and fetishes with porn addiction. They are not the same.

again do what you want in the bedroom just saying beware fantasy left unchecked can open a door of pain the likes you cant imagine unless youve stared it in the face and seen grown men cry. thats all im saying learn the draw the line. and have a little bit of education about it. thats all. dont need to go into all the details just want informed people so they can make rational decisions and can know before hand how to draw the line.

not all fantasy is bad just learn to keep it in its proper place is all. and in all reality. most fantasy invovles the notion women are trash. treat them like dirt and objects. so you really need to make sure you dont adopt this mindset.

not saying what you can or cannot do. just saying be cautious what doors might open is all and there is nothing wrong with being cautious. sexual sin is very easy to unleash and very hard to put back in its place and will destroy lives.

I still don't think that discussing these things with teenagers is a good idea. On one hand, it's unnecessary and inappropriate. On the other hand (and I'm not a "slippery slope" kind-of person, but...) you don't know who you might lead down a certain path simply by the power of suggestion.

As you've said, all this can be found with a simple Google search. Parents do not need to be educating their children in the world of pony play.

[kayne]

You seem to equate sexual fantasies and fetishes with porn addiction. They are not the same.

your right but they can be extremely similar

I still don't think that discussing these things with teenagers is a good idea. On one hand, it's unnecessary and inappropriate. On the other hand (and I'm not a "slippery slope" kind-of person, but...) you don't know who you might lead down a certain path simply by the power of suggestion.

As you've said, all this can be found with a simple Google search. Parents do not need to be educating their children in the world of pony play.

your right we dont need to go over all the details but we should tell them its out there and what to do when you stumble onto it because you will stumble onto it. and just say no isnt always a good way of approaching it a lot of kids need to know why. they need to know i can get crazy. they need to know it destroys lives and it can get downright crazy. we dont need to go into all the details but again people do need to know theres a line and not to cross it because pretty much every kid is going to find it some way or another so i'd much rather be the one that tells my child this is this avoid it heres why. than their friend say hey check this out and my kid has no clue what this is and porn just takes one innocent look to suck you in.

so bottom line kids will find it. they might as well be some what informed about it and what to do when they come across it. and why its bad. and what sick line it crosses. and i feel that education is lacking as all most kids here is its bad stay away which apparently isnt helping anyone as porn is constitently the biggest searched thing out there.

Fantasy can cross over into that area. It's not an automatic given.

your right it can. its not a given but it can. its likely too unless you put into check as i said....it starts out mild and builds and builds and builds. people need to be aware of that.

all im really advocating here is a more intelligent discussion on sex addiction. which is something this country as a whole severely lacks because no one wants to talk about it. its too dirty. its too private. its none of your business or sex addiction isnt real. sorry it is and we need an intelligent discussion on it.

[ruthiechan]

Fetishes are only a problem if it:

1: Impedes your ability to function in society.

2: Prevents you from being able to have a meaningful committed relationship.

3: Inhibits your ability to feel the Spirit.

4: Obstructs Temple worthiness.

Just because a particular fetish seems utterly bizarre to you does not mean it falls in either of those categories. It means you do not have that fetish.