As man is, god once was...

[Traveler]

Traveler, you always stretch me with your posts, but on this one I admit to not grasping your key point. Ruthie obviously does, so if either (or both) of you could break this down for me. I'm guessing it is profound, but I'm not getting it.

The idea of prison is a concept of confinement. Confinement and limitations are basically the same concept. If it is that there are things that cannot be reached or obtained then we are confined from reaching or obtaining them. The concept of damnation is also a concept of confinement or limitation. Therefore a damned soul is a soul that must live forever under limitations or constraints.

If there is something that stops us from reaching G-d - regardless of how close we may come - if we are stopped - especially because it is impossible then at that point that we cannot reach or cannot cross over we are damned. If G-d says you can go this far then you cannot go beyond you are confined. It does not matter is you confinement is 10 X 10 or something bigger. I would have thought that a prison chaplain understood confinement and such is a loss of freedom.

The LDS concept of Heaven is freedom - freedom that is continuing with G-d we are not bounded or limited, especially by G-d but are free and there are no limit or boundry points - comparing this to mathematics. Limit and boundry points define only for the damned

The Traveler

[Traveler]

10= ten in base ten.

10= two in base two (binary).

10= sixteen in base sixteen (hexadecimal).

One plus one equals two. In base two that looks like a base ten number ten, but it is not. It is two.

This is just place value and playing with the base being operated in. The base tells you when to pick up the individual pieces and move them over to make it easier to count.

When we speak of number bases that is a different understanding apart from number theory. For example there are integer numbers, rational numbers, irrational numbers, real numbers and complex numbers. As you have pointed out the number base does not matter because even if the symbols of numbers change the actual number remains the same.

Since you are using peaces - let me give you another example - This does involve integer numbers and set theory. If we have many pieces that are defined by both shape and color and we want to define a “subset” of the objects we may say that we desire to collect all the objects that are green and in the shape of a circle. There is one object that is a circle and one object that is green. How many objects are in the set? The complete or perfect answer is represented as follows:

1 <= 1 + 1 <= 2

Now we can use different symbols base whatever we want but the concept is the same. In essence there can be no less than one object and no greater than two objects in our set.

Now since you love number bases - Did you know that anciently it was believed that divine numbers are base 60? It is interesting that we still use base 60 numbers - a problem I present to my atheist friends that want to remove G-d from being forced upon them - I simply say. I do not believe them - when they get rid of the numbers base 60 - I believe they are serious. Until then I do not believe they have a clue what they are talking about - they are just prejudice of certain religions they want to eliminate.

I love mathematics!!

The Traveler

[HEthePrimate]

Hi Zerossoul,

Though Joseph Smith may not have written the couplet as worded, he did say this in his King Follett discourse:

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and ... God ... (were) to make himself visible ... if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form -- like yourselves in all the person, image, and the very form as a man."

It is tied to the concept of deification, or our (human beings') ability to become like God. Smith said further:

That men may go "...from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation ... until (they) arrive at the station of a God."

and

"You have got to learn to become Gods yourselves, the same as all Gods before you have done."

In other words, seeing as how we are children of God, we may "grow up" and become more like Him.

As mere mortals, we do not have a perfect understanding of these things (or anything, for that matter!), but perhaps Joseph meant that although God has always been of a perfect moral character, and never sinned, that he once had a mortal body, like us, and eventually became immortal and worked his way up to the position he now holds today. Jesus Christ may be an example of a similar process. He was born into a mortal body, grew from infant to child, and from child to adult, as a normal human does. He probably breastfed at the beginning, and eventually progressed to soft foods, and then to solid foods. He had to learn how to speak, he had to learn the scriptures, he had to learn carpentry from his father, just as we all do. But he was different from normal boys in that he did not sin, he led a perfectly moral life.

I've never really understood why Satan being Jesus' brother would bother people. We know from our own experiences that children from the same family may take wildly different courses in life. One sibling may be saintly in character, while her sister is a criminal. Satan's evil does not in any way detract from Jesus' perfection.

[prisonchaplain]

The idea of prison is a concept of confinement. Confinement and limitations are basically the same concept. If it is that there are things that cannot be reached or obtained then we are confined from reaching or obtaining them. The concept of damnation is also a concept of confinement or limitation. Therefore a damned soul is a soul that must live forever under limitations or constraints.

If there is something that stops us from reaching G-d - regardless of how close we may come - if we are stopped - especially because it is impossible then at that point that we cannot reach or cannot cross over we are damned. If G-d says you can go this far then you cannot go beyond you are confined. It does not matter is you confinement is 10 X 10 or something bigger. I would have thought that a prison chaplain understood confinement and such is a loss of freedom.

The LDS concept of Heaven is freedom - freedom that is continuing with G-d we are not bounded or limited, especially by G-d but are free and there are no limit or boundry points - comparing this to mathematics. Limit and boundry points define only for the damned

The Traveler

Thank you. I understand much better. Do I understand you then to believe that souls may progress from the outer darkness, or from any of the heavenly kingdoms, to exaltation, even if they have knowingly rejected the true gospel, with full knowledge and volition, in this lifetime?

[KrazyKay]

Thank you. I understand much better. Do I understand you then to believe that souls may progress from the outer darkness, or from any of the heavenly kingdoms, to exaltation, even if they have knowingly rejected the true gospel, with full knowledge and volition, in this lifetime?

This is my own personal belief - as far as I know there is no LDS doctrine on this. But me personally, I do believe that people will continue to progress through the kingdoms until they eventually reach exaltation - but that it will be a much longer (like eons and eons) and much harder to change and become like God than if they change here on earth. However, I do not believe that those thrown into outer darkness with Satan and those spirits who followed him in the pre-existance will be allowed to progress out of outer darkness. I think only a very small (can count on one or two hands) the people who will be thrown in outer darkness after their resurrection.

[Lossie_Bear]

Why do we seem suddenly to have a bunch of new people who haven't posted coming on here and throwing around the standard anti-Mormon lies we've all heard so much?

Then you know even less than you think. Joseph Smith did not say this; Lorenzo Snow did.

Ask "your friend" why the Lord commanded us to be perfect, even as our Father in heaven is perfect, in Matthew 5:48.

This is the typical absurd nonsense you get from anti-Mormons. The antis put great stock on the idea that Christ is "uncreated" and therefore not a creation of God. The whole "God's Son" business they dismiss as figurative talk (contrary to the Bible's clear teaching). They do violence to the word of God, then condemn us for doing violence to God's word because we refuse to follow them in their false teachings.

No, it will not. You will need to study and pray for your whole life, just like everyone else. There are answers, but you will never get them without giving the necessary effort.

This disturbs me... that questions of our faith, no matter how many times they are asked, could be met with such strong disdain. I've seen many of your posts.. and I'm very new, but if you're a LDS or even of another faith- shouldn't such things be responded with patience and empathy? Apparently this person, and their friend are pondering something that is quite complex. It's natural for someone who is learning or asking questions to get something confused.. such as the quote.

I wish to say to all my friends on this board- Please, reconsider how you respond to those who may not know as much about the gospel as you do. That's what this forum is for. To connect with others spiritually, not tear them down with our knowledge and logic. Share with one another.. don't try and trump each other. What if this person is a confused teenager, a curious child, or new member? And if not, does it really matter?.. We're here to help each other, and be good representatives of our faith.

In response to the original question.. I would tell your friend that in truth we are all brothers and sisters, and Lucifer was one of our brother who was cast out of Heaven in the pre-exsistance. So he is indeed the brother of Jesus, but also brother to you and I.

To the second.. I believe is open to interpretation. My personal belief: Our goal on this Earth is to live a righteous life, if we endure.. and endure well we will be exalted on high with our Father in Heaven-The highest kingdom of glory. There we will have the opportunity to become Gods of our own world as we're granted the power to create.

Now think about this.. if we become Gods of a new world that we've created-who's to say that our Father in Heaven didn't attain his power in the same way? It would be a infinite cycle. So.. to me this means, "As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become."

Edited June 10, 2011 by Lossie_Bear

[Seminarysnoozer]

The idea of prison is a concept of confinement. Confinement and limitations are basically the same concept. If it is that there are things that cannot be reached or obtained then we are confined from reaching or obtaining them. The concept of damnation is also a concept of confinement or limitation. Therefore a damned soul is a soul that must live forever under limitations or constraints.

If there is something that stops us from reaching G-d - regardless of how close we may come - if we are stopped - especially because it is impossible then at that point that we cannot reach or cannot cross over we are damned. If G-d says you can go this far then you cannot go beyond you are confined. It does not matter is you confinement is 10 X 10 or something bigger. I would have thought that a prison chaplain understood confinement and such is a loss of freedom.

The LDS concept of Heaven is freedom - freedom that is continuing with G-d we are not bounded or limited, especially by G-d but are free and there are no limit or boundry points - comparing this to mathematics. Limit and boundry points define only for the damned

The Traveler

I think we are all limited by our true natures. This life gives a chance to express our true natures, whether we are ones that can put complete faith in God or do we have a nature of self-centered independence. That nature was not shown in a place where there were not choices between good and evil, at least not fully proven for most. Satan and the third that followed him showed that they are limited by their self-centered natures. They could never thrive in a system that requires giving all trust and faith to God which is the only way to have Eternal happiness. Eternal Happiness and the limitless life it brings is only given to the degree a person can have faith in God, we are not talking about limitless knowledge. If we solely talk about knowledge it becomes confusing as to how these other kingdoms have a limit to their progression. I think that statement, a limit to their progression is better understood when we realize the limit is because of one's true nature, and spiritual make-up. The chance for change is now, in our spiritual make up, but all of us, after this probationary period will be confined and stuck with that nature, forever. Our true natures are limited. God will not judge in error. If He says ones true nature is such that they should be in the Terrestrial kingdom at judgement day, then that nature will never change. Their knowledge may increase to a certain degree, but their unchanging nature is limited and limiting.

[ruthiechan]

Thank you. I understand much better. Do I understand you then to believe that souls may progress from the outer darkness, or from any of the heavenly kingdoms, to exaltation, even if they have knowingly rejected the true gospel, with full knowledge and volition, in this lifetime?

Nope. Hence, they are the people who are damned. They can only go so far.

Now since you love number bases - Did you know that anciently it was believed that divine numbers are base 60? It is interesting that we still use base 60 numbers - a problem I present to my atheist friends that want to remove G-d from being forced upon them - I simply say. I do not believe them - when they get rid of the numbers base 60 - I believe they are serious. Until then I do not believe they have a clue what they are talking about - they are just prejudice of certain religions they want to eliminate.

Traveler, that is so cool! Where'd you learn this?

[Vort]

Traveler, that is so cool! Where'd you learn this?

Can't speak for Traveler, but I learned about sexagesimal in public schools. The Sumerians used it, the Babylonians adopted it, and we still use it indirectly in measures of degrees in circles and units of time.

[HiJolly]

This disturbs me... that questions of our faith, no matter how many times they are asked, could be met with such strong disdain. I've seen many of your posts.. and I'm very new, but if you're a LDS or even of another faith- shouldn't such things be responded with patience and empathy? Apparently this person, and their friend are pondering something that is quite complex. It's natural for someone who is learning or asking questions to get something confused.. such as the quote.

Just be grateful you're not getting posts from Snow. He'd really bust your chops.

HJ

[prisonchaplain]

Nope. Hence, they are the people who are damned. They can only go so far.

So who is damned? Only those in the outer darkness? What of those in the Telestial Kingdom? If I am not mistaken, these are folk who made some selfish, foolish, sometimes wicked choices. Clearly, they did not embrace the Gospel, restored or otherwise. Might these also eventually attain Godhood and exaltation, or are they damned as well? BTW, if I understand Traveler correctly, he might argue that even those in the outer darkness can move up when they want to.

[HiJolly]

So who is damned? Only those in the outer darkness? What of those in the Telestial Kingdom? If I am not mistaken, these are folk who made some selfish, foolish, sometimes wicked choices. Clearly, they did not embrace the Gospel, restored or otherwise. Might these also eventually attain Godhood and exaltation, or are they damned as well? BTW, if I understand Traveler correctly, he might argue that even those in the outer darkness can move up when they want to.

The official CES (Church Education System - seminaries & institutes of religion) teaching is that there is no movement between kingdoms. But this is a simplistic viewpoint which ignores the other viewpoint which is (IMO) just as valid - that there is movement between kingdoms possible, up until the final judgement.

Convenient that no one knows when the "final" judgement will occur...

HiJolly

[Seminarysnoozer]

The official CES (Church Education System - seminaries & institutes of religion) teaching is that there is no movement between kingdoms. But this is a simplistic viewpoint which ignores the other viewpoint which is (IMO) just as valid - that there is movement between kingdoms possible, up until the final judgement.

Convenient that no one knows when the "final" judgement will occur...

HiJolly

If the final judgment isn't an assignment to a Kingdom, what does it provide? I don't understand what "final" judgement does if it doesn't assign a person to a kingdom forever.

If you are suggesting that "final" judgment only occurs when a person makes it to exaltation (or whatever point you are talking about- known or unknown) then there is no judgment, it is just an achievement, there is no judging about it.

[prisonchaplain]

If the final judgment isn't an assignment to a Kingdom, what does it provide? I don't understand what "final" judgement does if it doesn't assign a person to a kingdom forever.

If you are suggesting that "final" judgment only occurs when a person makes it to exaltation (or whatever point you are talking about- known or unknown) then there is no judgment, it is just an achievement, there is no judging about it.

And this is where the idea that traditional Christianity's belief that eternal life will not include exaltation to Godhood is equivalent to damnation falters. The argument was that once we can no longer progress, we are damned. Ironically, by that understanding, perfection would also be damnation.

Are we not back to the understanding that whether salvation leads to eternity with God, or the journey towards Godness depends largely on whether Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God? Arguments from philosophy can only take us so far.

[Seminarysnoozer]

And this is where the idea that traditional Christianity's belief that eternal life will not include exaltation to Godhood is equivalent to damnation falters. The argument was that once we can no longer progress, we are damned. Ironically, by that understanding, perfection would also be damnation.

Are we not back to the understanding that whether salvation leads to eternity with God, or the journey towards Godness depends largely on whether Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God? Arguments from philosophy can only take us so far.

I, for one, don't believe that a limitation in progress (the definition of 'progress' is not clear here, personal progress or works or offspring, I think you are only refering to personal progress) is damnation.

I don't see how you are equating 'perfection' with a lack of progress. Unless one's definition of 'progress' is limited to knowledge or understanding. Progress can continue in terms of works. God's works are without end. They continue to progress, that is why His glory is endless. By being a part of those endless works, Eternal progression can continue.

Imagine if you had children and they had children and you knew that the family you started would continue on forever and expand with each generation. And all those family members you knew well and would share in their happiness and success. Part of the glory of God is that He shares in the success of all that are a part of His family, similar to what we do here.

If God were to measure His glory by His own achievements only then you are right, that would be damnation, that is exactly what Satan suggested, let me do it on my own. This is, in part, why 'family' is such a key part of our gospel. It is to give us a chance to understand how God works His works in a little way and to develop a love for that kind of way. People who don't like that kind of system, where they can't enjoy the successes of others unless they have it themselves are not in alignment with those that make it to the Celestial Kingdom, these are people who make themselves #1 in this life. If you look at "Eternal Progression" as a description of a single person then I see how you can box yourself into that argument that perfection is damnation. LDS cannot see a 'single person' Eternal Life, or exaltation, that doesn't exist. Exaltation only occurs as a covenant people and being a part of the covenant people, the family of Abraham.

This is why those that express in this life, the love of self or the pride of doing it on their own will end up in lesser kingdoms, still with glory but limited in terms of how much is shared. The obstetrician doesn't feel as much joy in the delivery as the husband, but still experiences some. The obstetrician experiences joy from a moment of the child's life but it typically doesn't extend for the fullness of that child's life. Likewise, those in the lower kingdoms of Glory will have their works but not experience the fullness of those works.

[prisonchaplain]

I, for one, don't believe that a limitation in progress (the definition of 'progress' is not clear here, personal progress or works or offspring, I think you are only refering to personal progress) is damnation.

I believe it was Traveler who suggested that being halted in progress would be the equivalent of a soul damned.

I don't see how you are equating 'perfection' with a lack of progress. Unless one's definition of 'progress' is limited to knowledge or understanding. Progress can continue in terms of works. God's works are without end. They continue to progress, that is why His glory is endless. By being a part of those endless works, Eternal progression can continue.

I've always understood perfection to mean completion. If one is perfect, there is no more progress to be made.

Imagine if you had children and they had children and you knew that the family you started would continue on forever and expand with each generation. And all those family members you knew well and would share in their happiness and success. Part of the glory of God is that He shares in the success of all that are a part of His family, similar to what we do here.

If God were to measure His glory by His own achievements only then you are right, that would be damnation, that is exactly what Satan suggested, let me do it on my own. This is, in part, why 'family' is such a key part of our gospel. It is to give us a chance to understand how God works His works in a little way and to develop a love for that kind of way. People who don't like that kind of system, where they can't enjoy the successes of others unless they have it themselves are not in alignment with those that make it to the Celestial Kingdom, these are people who make themselves #1 in this life. If you look at "Eternal Progression" as a description of a single person then I see how you can box yourself into that argument that perfection is damnation. LDS cannot see a 'single person' Eternal Life, or exaltation, that doesn't exist. Exaltation only occurs as a covenant people and being a part of the covenant people, the family of Abraham.

This is why those that express in this life, the love of self or the pride of doing it on their own will end up in lesser kingdoms, still with glory but limited in terms of how much is shared. The obstetrician doesn't feel as much joy in the delivery as the husband, but still experiences some. The obstetrician experiences joy from a moment of the child's life but it typically doesn't extend for the fullness of that child's life. Likewise, those in the lower kingdoms of Glory will have their works but not experience the fullness of those works.

You seem to suggest that in order for God to be perfect, and yet to enjoy eternal progress, He is constantly grooming and growing a family who will also become perfect Gods. Am I understanding you correctly?

[Seminarysnoozer]

I believe it was Traveler who suggested that being halted in progress would be the equivalent of a soul damned.

I've always understood perfection to mean completion. If one is perfect, there is no more progress to be made.

You seem to suggest that in order for God to be perfect, and yet to enjoy eternal progress, He is constantly grooming and growing a family who will also become perfect Gods. Am I understanding you correctly?

His glory is the immortality and Eternal Life of man and is one big round, yes. I know you believe in being "one".

Gods works are without end, is that not part of your beliefs? Even if we are just talking about God here, how do you put together a God without an end to His works and yet is perfect which you are suggesting is complete? His works are not complete, they are not finished, they progress.

[prisonchaplain]

Of course God's work is never done...but, He is perfect in his existence, or his being. He is not improving morally, physically, intellectually. Historically, this idea is referred to as God's immutability.

[Traveler]

Nope. Hence, they are the people who are damned. They can only go so far.

Traveler, that is so cool! Where'd you learn this?

Studying the ancient theories of math. We still measure time and space (circumferences) with numbers base 60 - Anciently it was believed that these things were G-d domain and therefore only properly understood using his numbers. Yah - I think it is quite cool as well

The Traveler

[Traveler]

I believe it was Traveler who suggested that being halted in progress would be the equivalent of a soul damned.

...

The basic concept of a Damned soul is one placed under restrictions. In particular restrictions that remove them from being with G-d. The mathematical analogy of a function with a limit point - especially one that does not include the boundary point would suggest that man may forever approach but never reach G-d. From both my understanding of math and religion - that would be a damned soul.

Another way to look at it is a soul that will never be complete - because not only are they missing the boundary point for which we all are striving - but they are limited, by definition.

The Traveler

[Vort]

The basic concept of a Damned soul is one placed under restrictions.

Not really. The word "****" has its roots in the idea of "loss" or "harm" (hence the word "damage"). The basic idea of "a damned soul" is one that is lost or eternally damaged or destroyed.

The mathematical analogy of a function with a limit point - especially one that does not include the boundary point would suggest that man may forever approach but never reach G-d. From both my understanding of math and religion - that would be a damned soul.

Another way to look at it is a soul that will never be complete - because not only are they missing the boundary point for which we all are striving - but they are limited, by definition.

A limit such as you describe can be approached arbitrarily closely just by tacking on more terms. In contrast, a damned soul is by definition remote from God. Spiritual death, which is damnation, means removal from the source of spiritual life, who is God.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Of course God's work is never done...but, He is perfect in his existence, or his being. He is not improving morally, physically, intellectually. Historically, this idea is referred to as God's immutability.

I suppose if you confine "improvement" to those three categories, which are arbitrary categories made up by someone, "morally, physically, intellectually" then I suppose He may not "improve". But, where is glory in all of this. What category does glory fall into? Do you not think God's glory increases?

Maybe if you change your "historic" idea into something more truthful, then you could see how there is increase and improvement.

According to your confined view of what qualifies for improvement (morally, physical, intellectual), even Christ reached His pinnacle before He started His ministry. In that case, His works after the ministry started did not add anything. Unless, you think Christ "learned" something after He started His ministry in terms of moral, physical or intellectual knowledge.

I know its hard to swallow, but works are important.

At a minimum I suppose I could argue within your confined view of what constitutes improvement that if God creates another world then He might have improved "physically".