Random Bom Questions

[Ray]

Thanks for your ideas. Ray, you are saying that it was not “total apostasy” but it was a total apostasy from divine knowledge? I don't quite understand. Can you explain it to me again please.

Thank you

Heh, no, that's not quite what I was saying, and I'll be happy to explain what I meant. :)

According to the thesaurus I use (and these things are very handy, btw), apostasy is another word for:

abandonment, backsliding, defection, desertion, disloyalty, disobedience, estrangement, faithlessness, falling away, forsaking, heresy, infidelity, rebellion, rejection, secession, sedition, separation, treachery, and withdrawl… among several and even many other words.

And what we (LDS) believe happened to people in the past who rejected some or all of the truths they were taught by God and His authorized servants is known as “apostasy” or “falling away” from some or all of the truths they were taught by God and His authorized servants.

But that doesn’t mean that ALL people who apostasized (aka apostates) rejected ALL they were taught about God from God and His authorized servants… because SOME people still believed SOME, and taught other people to believe SOME, of the truths they were taught by God and His authorized servants… they just believed NOT ALL, and taught other people to believe NOT ALL, the truths they were taught by God and His authorized servants.

And btw, apostasy still happens right now in these days by those who reject some or all of the truths being taught by God and His authorized servants… even among people who accept SOME of the truths but not ALL of the truths being taught by God and His authorized servants.

Or in other words, the fact that some "Christians" think they are teaching "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" while using quotes from God and His authorized servants doesn't mean they are teaching what is really the truth or that they have authority from God to teach others.

[Dr T]

LOL Miztrniceguy!

[Dr T]

Thanks for your input Ray. When Joseph Smith was told not to follow/join "any for they are all an abomination in My sight." What do you think was being communicated there? They were not all apostate or they were?

Thank you

[Ray]

Thanks for your input Ray. When Joseph Smith was told not to follow/join "any for they are all an abomination in My sight." What do you think was being communicated there? They were not all apostate or they were?

Thank you

Before I answer that question, please tell me what you think it means for a church, or churches, to be apostate.

Or in other words, do you think a church of Christ can be apostate and still be "true" to our Lord?

[prisonchaplain]

Or in other words, do you think a church of Christ can be apostate and still be "true" to our Lord?

Sorry to barge in, but Ray asks a good question. My thought is that an apostate church has lost its connection with God. In Revelation 2-3 the seven churches of Asia Minor are given messages. Most include warnings about grave error. They are told that if they do not turn back towards God "their candle would be removed." In other words, yes, these churches had serious problems. Yet, God was still working with them, communicating with them--wooing them. An apostate church is one who's candle is already removed. Sadly, such churches probably haven't even noticed the Spirit's absence.

[Dr T]

Do not take it as "barging in" PC. You are always welcome in a discussion in which I am a part. I agree. Good question Ray. I always thought that apostasy was a 1. renunciation of a religious faith and

2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty. I thought LDS viewed the church as gone from the Earth. That is why I'm asking.

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Ray]

I thought LDS viewed the church as gone from the Earth. That is why I'm asking.

Thanks,

Dr. T

We believe the "true" church of Christ was not on this Earth, until our Lord restored it.

And yes, Tommy, I agree with that point... many didn't even know His spirit was not among them.

[Dr T]

Hello Ray,

We believe the "true" church of Christ was not on this Earth, until our Lord restored it.

So were those three on Earth or not? If only three, yet still "the true church" how can your statement be accurate, Ray?

Thanks

[Ray]

The simple answer is that those 3 Nephites (and the apostle John who also now lives as a translated being) didn’t and still don’t have ALL the authority from God which is necessary to regulate His kingdom on Earth.

But that doesn’t mean those 4 people, or any other people, don’t know God, or don’t worship God, and it also doesn’t mean they don’t have some authority from God to do some good works on Earth.

They simply don’t have all the authority from God which is necessary to regulate His kingdom on Earth.

[Dr T]

Thanks again Ray. What "authority" is needed? What does it require?

Thanks

[Ray]

The authority that governs in the kingdom of God is the actual authority of God, Doc.

Just ponder that thought for a minute, or a moment. The actual authority of God.

Oh yeah, and we get it from God and from those God has authorized... like when God laid His hands on the apostles during His ministry, and they later laid their hands on others.

Some people have no sense of what we're really talking about here... the actual authority of God.

[Dr T]

Is not God's authority all encompassing? Why the need for "laying on of hands"?

[Ray]

I can think of several good reasons for why there is an ordinance requiring men with the authority of God to lay their hands on the head of another man head when ordaining another man to the priesthood, like how it helps to visibly show that a man who has the authority of God is ordaining another man to the priesthood, and like how it helps to have a witness or witnesses to testify that they saw that ordinance being performed, and like how knowing that is the way God commanded men to do it helps us to know how men should be doing it, but I think the best reason for why there is that ordinance is because that is the way God has commanded His men to do it.

[Dr T]

Will you please give me a reference to "God commanding man to do it that way." I’d like to look into that.

Thank you, Ray :)

[Ray]

This should be enough to help you begin your quest for this knowledge, if you can't take my word for it:

Laying on of Hands

You can also search the archives at lds.org as well as asking God Himself for this knowledge.

[Dr T]

Thank you Ray. I will try and look at those soon. :)

[Outshined]

My daughter and I were just watching some laying on of hands on the UFC, but I think that's a different definition...

[srm]

Thanks for your input Ray. When Joseph Smith was told not to follow/join "any for they are all an abomination in My sight." What do you think was being communicated there? They were not all apostate or they were?

Thank you

No, the Lord said

that they were wrong.

their creeds were an abomination

that those professors (the local preachers) were corupt

Besides the 3 Nephits there is also the apostle John. A interesting character in history is a person called Prester John that surfaced during the crusades. The Catholics believe him to be a fantasy but the Moslems believe him to be real and a friend of all good peoples. BTW he was not your standard variety Trinitarian and is believed to have been a nestorian Christian.

When the family of Joseph Smith moved to New York Joseph was still a young boy and could hardly walk from his operation two years before. Joseph’s mother had hired a man to drive a wagon and Joseph was supposed to ride in front with the driver but the driver kicked Joseph out of the wagon so a teenage girl could ride with him. The foot print was later discovered in young Joseph’s chest. Joseph was alone and lost consciousness. He was picked up by a stranger that carried young Joseph ten miles to the wagon camp and then disappeared.

Final thought: When the Spanish came to the new world the became very interested in finding a fountain of youth. According to the stories they had heard that there were people that had found this fountain that once someone had drunk they would not die. According to stories there were at least 3 that had found this fountain and had walked among the native Americans. Some of the Spanish explorers were so convinced that they risked all they had to find the fountain. I wonder if this fountain was the “fountain of living waters” spoken of by Christ?

The Traveler

"Joseph was supposed to ride in front with the driver but the driver kicked Joseph out of the wagon so a teenage girl could ride with him. The foot print was later discovered in young Joseph’s chest. Joseph was alone and lost consciousness. He was picked up by a stranger that carried young Joseph ten miles to the wagon camp and then disappeared. "

what is your source

[Traveler]

"Joseph was supposed to ride in front with the driver but the driver kicked Joseph out of the wagon so a teenage girl could ride with him. The foot print was later discovered in young Joseph’s chest. Joseph was alone and lost consciousness. He was picked up by a stranger that carried young Joseph ten miles to the wagon camp and then disappeared. "

what is your source

The History of Joseph Smith by his mother Lucy Mack Smith.

The Traveler

[srm]

<div class='quotemain'>

"Joseph was supposed to ride in front with the driver but the driver kicked Joseph out of the wagon so a teenage girl could ride with him. The foot print was later discovered in young Joseph’s chest. Joseph was alone and lost consciousness. He was picked up by a stranger that carried young Joseph ten miles to the wagon camp and then disappeared. "

what is your source

The History of Joseph Smith by his mother Lucy Mack Smith.

The Traveler

which version?

[Dr T]

Hi srm,

No, the Lord said

that they were wrong.

their creeds were an abomination

that those professors (the local preachers) were corupt

Ok. I was quoting a general statement for discussion sake. My quote was the LDS believe that God saw them all as abominations. Would you disagree with that statement?

[Traveler]

Hi srm,

No, the Lord said

that they were wrong.

their creeds were an abomination

that those professors (the local preachers) were corupt

Ok. I was quoting a general statement for discussion sake. My quote was the LDS believe that God saw them all as abominations. Would you disagree with that statement?

I disagree with that statement. The declaration is that the creeds were an abomination. Therefore any organization that relies on the creeds are wrong and the professors that back the creeds were corrupt.

The center topic is the creeds - The word abomination implies a non-divine origin claiming something to be 100% without any other possibility a divine origin and nothing else. If there is one jot or tittle that is not of divine origin in it then in light of the claim - it is by definition an abomination.

I would say the same of any scientist or organization that insisted that our earth is the center of the universe. It is not scientific.

The view of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS is that G-d did not command it - plain and simple.

The Traveler

[Dr T]

Hi Traveler,]

So you are saying that the churches in Joseph Smith's time were not seen as abominations by God?

Thanks

[boyando]

Hi srm,

No, the Lord said

that they were wrong.

their creeds were an abomination

that those professors (the local preachers) were corupt

Ok. I was quoting a general statement for discussion sake. My quote was the LDS believe that God saw them all as abominations. Would you disagree with that statement?

These are my thoughts and not doctrine on this subject;

When Christ was on the earth, one of the things he did was too re-introduce his Church to Isreal. This is not the first time that God's choosen people had ventured from the truth. Soon after his ressurection, the Gosple was givin to the gentiles [(the Book of Mormon has the most beautiful scripture's on how we are grafted onto the true vine and become God's Choosen people) we, meaning gentiles].

As PC pointed out earlier, there were many, who, because the Apostle's were not there to guide them lost, the light. Letters were writen to Church's and to individuals. These letter's, for the most part, were written by the Apostle's, who were choosen by Christ while he was on the earth or by Christ, through the majority of the twelve (who ever was left) after his reserection. Soon, not enough of the twelve could come together to add new Apostles. I believe there needs to be at least nine but I can't remeber were I heard that number.

Most of Christainity will agree that the Apostles were killed and not replaced, soon after the ressurection (soon meaning about 50 years). We may also agree that there was a falling away, as there was a time when there was no Apostles and no Bible (about 25 years) because the letters, had not become a single volume, yet. There was no one and no guide to derect the Church of Christ.

Having Apostles on the earth, in the form of a quorum, did two things. First it kept (and keeps) the permission to run Christ's Chuch, alive. And second, the quorum, under the direction of the Prophet kept (and keeps) the word of God pure.

I do not like to tell others, what they believe so I will allow my Cathalic friends to humble me if I stray from what they believe. I believe that it is part of there creed, that they have kept permission to run Christ Church alive through the Pope. We like to call it a line of authority. I look forward to comments from good people like Christos who have more knowledge than I, when talking about the Cathalic line of authority.

We, as Mormons, also believe that the line of authority is important. All of Christainity branches from either the Cathalic's or the Mormon's, who both claim a line of authority back to Peter, and from Peter to Christ.

If we ask ourself's, has the word of God been kept pure, most Christians would agree that the Bible has been well preserved, even after all it went through. Does that mean that the word of God was kept pure? Not necessarily.

The scribe's, sadducee's and other sect's at the time of Christ all used the same scripture's and came up with different version of Judiasm. The Old Testement, testified of Christ and yet those who studied the scripture's were the one's to crucify Him.

So when we say that there was an apostasy or falling away, we believe that the line of authority was lost before Constantine and the interpretation of the pure word of God was lost before the Nician creed.

Please allow me to qoute Joseph Smith; I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that:"they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power therof."

Does that mean that everyone who was a preacher, at that time, was corrupt and evil? Of coarse not. Those preacher's around Joseph seem to be in competion for the most souls to there own flock, not the flock of God and there for, corrupted the word of God. Is this something new? No, from the begining of this world, men have tried to say that they know what God wants and how you should fallow his comandments because he or she whats to feed there own pride or to add convience to there own sin's.

Was the preisthood ever totally removed from the earth? I don't know. I can't think of a time when it was totally removed from the earth, although you could say that in the time before Christ it could have been. Has the Church of Christ ever been taken from the earth? Yes it has. Has his church been resored to the earth so that we may have the fruits of his pure word and enjoy the permision to act in his name? I hope every one can hear the joy in my voice when I say YES IT HAS.

I pray that we all will continue to seek the truth. Search the scripture's for in them, ye think ye have eternal life. Today I am your long winded friend - Allmosthumble

[srm]

Hi srm,

No, the Lord said

that they were wrong.

their creeds were an abomination

that those professors (the local preachers) were corupt

Ok. I was quoting a general statement for discussion sake. My quote was the LDS believe that God saw them all as abominations. Would you disagree with that statement?

Yes, I disagree. I think that we believe that the other Churches are wrong...that the creeds are an abomination and that those preachers were corrupt.