prisonchaplain Posted July 2, 2011 Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 Lines, your hard and fast definitions simply do not hold up. The reality is that the USA is an ally and friend of Israel. This is one of the reasons we were targeted for the 9-11-01 attack. Furthermore, we elected enough representatives who are committed to continuing that friendship-alliance, that our policy towards Israel will remain one of support and engagement. We've engaged in undeclared wars, and we have undeclared friends and enemies. Rather than relying on the black & white contractual language of business, our global political relationships combine art, poetry, delusion, and occasional philanthropy and brilliance. These are all various shades of gray and mud. Reality is messy, but at least it's authentic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrinceofLight2000 Posted July 2, 2011 Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 It's a logical fallacy only if it's employed as a logical argument.As long as you admit it doesn't prove anything, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted July 2, 2011 Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 As long as you admit it doesn't prove anything, lol.To repeat:"You make the mistake of thinking I was offering a reasoned, logical rebuttal. I was not. The comment was absurd on its face and did not merit a reasoned response." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lines Posted July 2, 2011 Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 Lines, your hard and fast definitions simply do not hold up. The reality is that the USA is an ally and friend of Israel. This is one of the reasons we were targeted for the 9-11-01 attack. Furthermore, we elected enough representatives who are committed to continuing that friendship-alliance, that our policy towards Israel will remain one of support and engagement.We've engaged in undeclared wars, and we have undeclared friends and enemies. Rather than relying on the black & white contractual language of business, our global political relationships combine art, poetry, delusion, and occasional philanthropy and brilliance. These are all various shades of gray and mud. Reality is messy, but at least it's authentic.What American interest does it serve for the American government to show partiality in matters that pertain to the Israelis and Palestinians? America has no reason to involve itself with matters that pertain to those two peoples, that is for those peoples to settle between themselves. Do you see it as being in Americas interest to support a side, and if so what is that interest or interests? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted July 2, 2011 Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 We side with our friends against hostile enemies, some of whom do indeed wish to engage in a repeat of genocide against God's chosen. BTW, I consider myself a Christian Zionist, and do not agree with "replacement theology." The Church has a special covenant with God, but He's not done with the Jews either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lines Posted July 2, 2011 Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 We side with our friends against hostile enemies, some of whom do indeed wish to engage in a repeat of genocide against God's chosen. BTW, I consider myself a Christian Zionist, and do not agree with "replacement theology." The Church has a special covenant with God, but He's not done with the Jews either.I have not decided whether or not a believe in the old covenant or not, however I have studied the old covenant and know that it is very clear and in the Bible. I am going to find an exact quote from The Bible to support what I am going to say.The old covenant is very clear. If you believe the old covenant still applies then there is no reason to be involved in the Israel Palestine issue.I'm sure you are familiar with this due to being a Bible believing christian but just to repeat it the old testament is very clear. The old testament says that if God is pleased with the jews he will grant them Israel. The old testament also says that if he is displeased with the jews due to immoral behavior or something he will exile them from Israel.So from a biblical standpoint a believer in the old covenant would see the current situation regarding jews and Israel as being something that is strictly between jews and God.I am not God and you are not God. Only God is God and only God can judge the jewish people. So to support Israel is a form of playing God because how can you know if God favors the jewish people or not? Only God knows his judgements.The old testament says that if God is pleased with the jews he will grant them Israel and if they displease him he will exile them... the current situation involving Israel and the jews is between God and the jews and therefore gentiles should not meddle in the Israel Palestine conflict. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lines Posted July 2, 2011 Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 (edited) The old testament does not say God gives Israel to the jews unconditionally. The old testament says that if the jews displease God that he will take Israel away from them.Deuteronomy 28Deuteronomy 28 - Passage Lookup - King James Version - BibleGateway.com1And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth: 2And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.following verses describe various blessing jews are promised to recieve if they follow the commandments of God and among these blessings is the ability to reside in IsraelHowever further on in this chapter God promises to curse the jews if they do not follow his commandments15But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:It then goes on to list various curses and among them are exile from Israel63And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.And so the Bible is clear, God is the judge of the jews and it is not the place of a gentile to either support Israel or oppose it(if one is a believer in the old covenant). One should just ignore Israel. God will decide what should happen to Israel. Edited July 2, 2011 by lines Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDSJewess Posted July 2, 2011 Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 We side with our friends against hostile enemies, some of whom do indeed wish to engage in a repeat of genocide against God's chosen. BTW, I consider myself a Christian Zionist, and do not agree with "replacement theology." The Church has a special covenant with God, but He's not done with the Jews either.Very well said Chaplian. I couldn't have said it better so I will just stand on the side lines and applaud. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted July 2, 2011 Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 Lines...whether God is judging Israel or not is indeed a matter between Him and them. However, my scriptures also tell me to pray for the peace of Jerusalem. Further, I am instructed that those who bless Israel will be blessed. Color me selfish--I want to be blessed by God! BTW, I do not consider myself a "new covenant" Christian, or a New Testament one. I take the whole counsel of God. At this point, that's the whole Bible. Others here have even more to consider... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lines Posted July 2, 2011 Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 Further, I am instructed that those who bless Israel will be blessed. Color me selfish--I want to be blessed by God!I assume you interpret the following verse as meaning those who bless Israel will be blessed:Genesis 12:3I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through youThat is the verse that people use to justify the "those who bless Israel...." idea you mentioned, however the word Israel is curiously absent from that verse. Lets observe the verse along with the verses that surround it in chapter 12 of Genesis.1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: 3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. 4So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.From observing the above verses it is clear that verse 3 of chapter 12 does not refer to Israel at all. The Bible is saying that God will bless those who bless Abram(who later became Abraham) and that he will curse those who curse Abram. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted July 2, 2011 Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 Abraham would be made a great nation...so how would we bless Abraham today? Perhaps by blessing his descendants...the Hebrews...Israel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiritseeker Posted July 2, 2011 Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 Its a long and complicated issue. Israel and Palestine as well as the Arab world in general are all at fault. No ones hands are free of innocent blood. I am tired of the "holocaust" guilt card that Israel plays every time someone dares to critisize them... Israel doesn't allow any to stand against them if you try you are classified a anti-semite! There needs to be compromise something one must have humility for and both sides seem to be lacking this one great virtue. It seems to me that the Israeli , Palestinian conflict will always be around. It is like the question "Which came first the chicken or the egg?!?" No one knows.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted July 2, 2011 Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 Its a long and complicated issue. Israel and Palestine as well as the Arab world in general are all at fault. No ones hands are free of innocent blood.I am tired of the "holocaust" guilt card that Israel plays every time someone dares to critisize them... Israel doesn't allow any to stand against them if you try you are classified a anti-semite!Your approach seems like the reasonable, middle way. However, I'd suggest this is a bit more of a David and Goliath scenario, than two equals who just can't get along.1. Hitler's regime really did try to wipe out the Jewish race. He succeeded in killing 6 million of them, and too many people could have known, but chose not to. We're less than two generations from this event. Slavery has been history for over 140 years, and we're still dealing with the after effects. So, I'd suggest the Jews are due their remembering.2. Tiny Israel is surrounded by enemies, many of whom engage in terrorist actions. A good number of these larger nations that surround the Holy Land offer material support to them.3. The vast majority of university campuses in this country tolerate a great deal of anti-Semitism. Being pro-PLO is the new chic political stance.4. There seems to be something of a rebel-cool in being tolerant and understanding towards political Islam. After all, how open-minded is that...I can show empathy towards a movement that killed 3000 people on our soil!5. Being pro-Israel is associated with Republicanism, and Judeo-Christianity. It's organized religion and gray-haired politics. How uncool is that?So...not really seeing this as two sides, equally culpable. One side is tiny, has been badly burned, and is getting no help from our media or influencers.There needs to be compromise something one must have humility for and both sides seem to be lacking this one great virtue. It seems to me that the Israeli , Palestinian conflict will always be around. It is like the question "Which came first the chicken or the egg?!?" No one knows....It's really really hard to be humble, patient, and understanding with people who do not believe you have a right to exist, and who have no qualms with killing your civilians. I'm not saying Israel can do no wrong. But again, to say that these are just two sides who need to shake hands and get along is just too easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lines Posted July 2, 2011 Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 (edited) Abraham would be made a great nation...so how would we bless Abraham today? Perhaps by blessing his descendants...the Hebrews...Israel?The verse only refers to Abraham, it doesn't refer to blessing his descendants.A famous Rabbi whose commentary is respected in the jewish community is RashiRashi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaRashi's commentary on Genesis 12:3 is that parents bless their children by saying "be like Abraham".There are many Aggadaic interpretations, but this is the simple meaning: A man says to his son, "May you be like Avraham." This is the meaning every [time the expression] {Hebrew Ref} [appears] in Scripture. The following [expression] proves this: "Through you shall [the People of] Israel bless, saying: May El-him make you as Ephraim and Menasheh."19http://www.tachash.org/texis/vtx/chumash/+uwwBmeuAz1eczQxwwxFqwqFqrHnDn5o5mFqAgrwpBnGaW+nFqwhzmxwww/article.htmlRashi's commentary refers to this part of genesis 12:3 thoughand all peoples on earth will be blessed through youHowever it is impossible for following part of genesis 12:3 to apply to the descendants of AbrahamI will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse;The reason it is impossible for that to apply to the descendants of Abraham is because the descendants of Abraham were often at war with each other. And so when they were at war with each other were they blessing and cursing themselves at the same time? Throughout the history of Israel the two houses of Israel(Israel and Judah) were often at war.Kingdom of Judah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Edited July 2, 2011 by lines Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew0059 Posted July 2, 2011 Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 I was dismayed to see at least 3 members voice strong opposition to the state of Israel in the first page of this thread. At least it was somewhat redeemed by rational discussion. Especially Vort's comment... I am hoping that honest Jews and Muslims will someday soon be united under the banner of the Living GOD- but I don't think that will happen until after the Battle of Armageddon and the redemption of the Jews. Until that time, I think both sides will make serious mistakes... But we do know that before the Battle of Armageddon can happen, the Jews need to be gathered to Jerusalem and Jerusalem needs to be fortified. So whether GOD has given the Jews Jerusalem as an inheritance yet is up for debate- but we know that the land has been consecrated for the gathering of the Jews (Orson Hyde accomplished that in his mission), and it stands to reason that GOD's intended resolution doesn't include the Jews being forced out of Jerusalem. Sorry, I just flit in and drop my opinion from time to time... I think you all have made some good points, but I don't have time to quote/respond. GOD bless you all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierGuy Posted July 2, 2011 Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 I will not continue to engage in more conversation on this thread where so much hate exists. I don't hate Israel. I wish the country peace, prosperity and growth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew0059 Posted July 2, 2011 Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 I don't hate Israel. I wish the country peace, prosperity and growth.... And empowerment to their sworn enemy, Iran, which is boasting its newfound nuclear power and has vowed at every level to remove Israel from existence if it's the last thing it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted July 2, 2011 Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 At least it was somewhat redeemed by rational discussion. Especially Vort's comment... See, now that's what I'm talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted July 2, 2011 Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 The verse only refers to Abraham, it doesn't refer to blessing his descendants.While I agree that the blessing is primarily to Abraham, it does not follow that it does not refer to his descendants. Abraham was destined to found a holy nation--God's chosen people.The reason it is impossible for that to apply to the descendants of Abraham is because the descendants of Abraham were often at war with each other. And so when they were at war with each other were they blessing and cursing themselves at the same time? Throughout the history of Israel the two houses of Israel(Israel and Judah) were often at war.Christian fight with each other too. Does that mean we negate our relationship with God? Do we lose God's blessings and protection? Why did God bless Abraham? What was He doing through him? He was raising a people, through whom God would bring the Gospel to all.We would do well to continue to pray for the peace of Jerusalem, and to bless the children of Abraham. The rabbi you cite makes a good point though...we certainly should learn to bless Abraham by following in his example of faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrinceofLight2000 Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 · Hidden Hidden I don't hate Israel. I wish the country peace, prosperity and growth.And empowerment to their sworn enemy, Iran, which ... has vowed at every level to remove Israel from existence if it's the last thing it does.Yay utter contradictions. Link to comment
Matthew0059 Posted July 3, 2011 Report Share Posted July 3, 2011 Yay utter contradictions.Yes... I was pointing out the contradictory nature of Hoosier's first and second posts on this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrinceofLight2000 Posted July 3, 2011 Report Share Posted July 3, 2011 Yes... I was pointing out the contradictory nature of Hoosier's first and second posts on this thread.LOL I thought you were him thanks to the avatars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew0059 Posted July 3, 2011 Report Share Posted July 3, 2011 LOL I thought you were him thanks to the avatars.That would be my fault... Hoosier's had the temple avatar for years IIRC, and I made my avatar a temple just recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrinceofLight2000 Posted July 3, 2011 Report Share Posted July 3, 2011 That would be my fault... Hoosier's had the temple avatar for years IIRC, and I made my avatar a temple just recently.Recently? It's always been a temple since I've seen you post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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