pre-mortal existence?

[MrShorty]

In one of the many "Do Mormons really believe man can become a god?" thread, Prisonchaplain made an interesting observation. He observed that Mormons have a different view of the "chasm" between human nature and the nature of God. In the Mormon worldview, we were created spiritually by God as his children before we were born. Being God's children in this way means that we carry within us a "divine nature" that can lead us to become like God, in much the same way that a child can become his earthly father's peer and equal, while always being his son. PC's comment made me wonder if this debate isn't just about what happens in the next life, but also about what happened in the previous life. So I thought I'd ask this group. What is the Christian and/or Catholic view of our premortal existence (if any)? Did we exist as "personalities" or "spirits" before we were born? Or did we only "exist" in God's mind because of his perfect foreknowledge? Or is there some other picture of what we were?

[applepansy]

The following links are to a two part webcast on the Mormon channel about our life before this one. Maybe it will help you.

Mormon Identity: Episode 30 - Premortal Life - Part 1

Mormon Identity: Episode 31 - Premortal Life - Part 2

[rameumptom]

Traditional Christians that believe in the Trinity also believe in creatio ex nihilo or creation from nothing. There was no "us" prior to earth life, only God and his angels (who are considered a separate species from man)

In the Trinity view, we are made from impure substance, and so can never be quite like God is, as he is made of pure substance. So Trinitarians view of it is different. There is no exact Father/child lineage per se, but more of a Creator/created concept. We become children of God through Christ in a manner that brings us close, but not completely to what they are.

In LDS view ontologically we are the same species as God and angels. We are all at different places in progression, explaining our differences.

[Vort]

The following links are to a two part webcast on the Mormon channel about our life before this one. Maybe it will help you.

Mormon Identity: Episode 30 - Premortal Life - Part 1

Mormon Identity: Episode 31 - Premortal Life - Part 2

Actually, MrShorty is LDS. His question is about the beliefs of non-LDS Christians.

[shdwlkr]

Vort

I like the new avatar reminds me of me when the ex comes up with something new she would like done.

[JudoMinja]

Traditional Christians that believe in the Trinity also believe in creatio ex nihilo or creation from nothing. There was no "us" prior to earth life, only God and his angels (who are considered a separate species from man)

In the Trinity view, we are made from impure substance, and so can never be quite like God is, as he is made of pure substance. So Trinitarians view of it is different. There is no exact Father/child lineage per se, but more of a Creator/created concept. We become children of God through Christ in a manner that brings us close, but not completely to what they are.

In LDS view ontologically we are the same species as God and angels. We are all at different places in progression, explaining our differences.

I remember when I first realized that the belief in a pre-mortal existence is unique to the Mormon faith. I was talking with a good Lutheran friend of mine about family sizes, and I don't remember exactly how it got brought up, but I mentioned to her that many Mormon's have big families because they feel an obligation to provide bodies for all those spirit children still waiting in heaven. The concept was totally foreign to her, and I was surprised. I ended up explaining the whole pre-existence to her and asked her what she was taught regarding the matter. Until that point, I never realized just how different LDS beliefs were from other Christians.

[Guest gopecon]

This is one of those areas that seem so obvious to life-long Mormons, yet is really a fairly unique doctrine to us. Traditional Christians take verses like the one in Jeremiah where he was told "before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee" as evidence of God's foreknowledge, not preexistence. It seems like they are using their preconceived ideas to shape the scriptures, instead of taking the fairly plain meaning that is found there. This is one area that we can see the blessing of the restoration and the additional scriptures that Joseph Smith brought forth to clarify this, as the Pearl of Great Price is very helpful in this regard.

[madeleine1]

Hello, the verse you are referring to is viewed by Christians as describing God's omnipresence. This is not an a priori interpretation but clear exegesis and accepting what is revealed in the Bible.

From a Christian view, Mormons have read a lot into that verse that just isn't there, at all.

Peace.

[Jason_J]

Hello, the verse you are referring to is viewed by Christians as describing God's omnipresence. This is not an a priori interpretation but clear exegesis and accepting what is revealed in the Bible.

I think you mean omniscience not omnipresence.

From a Christian view, Mormons have read a lot into that verse that just isn't there, at all.

Peace.

You mean from a traditional Christian view. From the Latter-day Saint Christian view, the meaning of the verse is clear, and is consistent with ancient Judeo-Christian thought, as well as other Biblical statements.

[Croso717]

In one of the many "Do Mormons really believe man can become a god?" thread, Prisonchaplain made an interesting observation. He observed that Mormons have a different view of the "chasm" between human nature and the nature of God. In the Mormon worldview, we were created spiritually by God as his children before we were born. Being God's children in this way means that we carry within us a "divine nature" that can lead us to become like God, in much the same way that a child can become his earthly father's peer and equal, while always being his son. PC's comment made me wonder if this debate isn't just about what happens in the next life, but also about what happened in the previous life. So I thought I'd ask this group. What is the Christian and/or Catholic view of our premortal existence (if any)? Did we exist as "personalities" or "spirits" before we were born? Or did we only "exist" in God's mind because of his perfect foreknowledge? Or is there some other picture of what we were?

we do believe that we can become gods through the teachings and ordinances of the Gospel. Before we were spiritually born we were intelligence in the unorganized universe. we awaited to added upon to the organized universe. when we were added upon by our God we went through classes and we chose what life form we wanted to be. Some left the classes after two or three sessions because they were satisfied the amount of knowledge they gained. so lets say you saw a bird that bird before it was a bird was an intelligence chose to be a bird. So you chose to become a human the highest life form you can become. all of mankind as the opportunity to become exalted if they follow the teachings of Gospel faithfully through this life. feel free to ask more questions!

[dahlia]

When I took lessons and the missionaries spoke about pre-mortal existence, I had no problem with the concept. I have 1 child - he came here with his own unique little personality. I was old enough for 3 of my siblings to have knowledge of their personalities from the moment they were brought home. Of course they existed in some way before they were born. Any mother can tell you that each child is different from the beginning. Surely they must have had some kind of existence before birth in order to show that individuality after birth. A newborn just can't get a personality through osmosis.

I didn't have a formal idea of pre-existence before speaking to the elders, but once presented, it certainly seemed like common sense to me and was easy to accept.

[madeleine1]

I think you mean omniscience not omnipresence.

You mean from a traditional Christian view. From the Latter-day Saint Christian view, the meaning of the verse is clear, and is consistent with ancient Judeo-Christian thought, as well as other Biblical statements.

I meant omnipresence. Thanks.

The LDS view arose in the 19th century, which makes it not so ancient.

[madeleine1]

When I took lessons and the missionaries spoke about pre-mortal existence, I had no problem with the concept. I have 1 child - he came here with his own unique little personality. I was old enough for 3 of my siblings to have knowledge of their personalities from the moment they were brought home. Of course they existed in some way before they were born. Any mother can tell you that each child is different from the beginning. Surely they must have had some kind of existence before birth in order to show that individuality after birth. A newborn just can't get a personality through osmosis.

I didn't have a formal idea of pre-existence before speaking to the elders, but once presented, it certainly seemed like common sense to me and was easy to accept.

Hello, being created by God is not osmosis.

Peace.

[Jason_J]

The LDS view arose in the 19th century, which makes it not so ancient.

Actually, as I mentioned, the LDS view is consistent with ancient (i.e. pre-19th century) Judeo-Christian views.

[Soninme]

What is the Christian and/or Catholic view of our premortal existence (if any)? Did we exist as "personalities" or "spirits" before we were born? Or did we only "exist" in God's mind because of his perfect foreknowledge? Or is there some other picture of what we were?

Hello MrShorty

To me the Bible teaches that God, Who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is in fact the creator of ALL things. (John 1:3) (Col. 1:16) Which includes the spirit of man. (Zechariah 12:1) ...Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him.

Colossians 1:17 And He (Jesus) is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

As God and creator, Jesus would be "before all things". If we have always existed then He wouldn't be before all things, which includes you and me.

He said He was before Abraham. (John 8:58) Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

He also asked Job; (Job 38:4 “ Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?

Tell Me, if you have understanding.

5 Who determined its measurements?

Surely you know!

Or who stretched the line upon it?

6 To what were its foundations fastened?

Or who laid its cornerstone,

7 When the morning stars sang together,

And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The angels were there but Job was not.

1 Corinthians 15: 45-46

And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.

Thanks

Edited August 8, 2011 by Soninme

[MrShorty]

To me the Bible teaches that God, Who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is in fact the creator of ALL things. (John 1:3) (Col. 1:16) Which includes the spirit of man. (Zechariah 12:1)

Do you think this necessarily means that he created an individual's spirit immediately before/at the same time as He created the body, or is it possible he created a person's spirit long before he created the body?

[Soninme]

Do you think this necessarily means that he created an individual's spirit immediately before/at the same time as He created the body, or is it possible he created a person's spirit long before he created the body?

I suppose either could be possible as God can do anything. To say for certain when He creates the spirit is up for debate. One that will likely lead nowhere I fear.

What is clear though from the Bible is our spirit/ soul was indeed created and not from eternity.

I submit the following teaching is contrary to the Bible.

I have another subject to dwell upon... It is associated with the subject of the resurrection of the dead,--namely, the soul--the mind of man--the immortal spirit....All learned men and doctors of divinity say that God created it in the beginning; but it is not so: the very idea lessens man in my estimation....The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal with God himself....I am dwelling on the immortality of the spirit of man....The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end....There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they are co-equal (co-eternal) with our Father in heaven.

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 352-4:

Thanks