So No One Forgets

[Traveler]

Following the murder of Joseph and his brother there was a lot of tension in western Ill. There were four events or types of events that led directly to the death of 3000 members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS due to starvation and exposer.

1. Governor Ford promised that if the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS were to surrender their arms and stand down the Nauvoo Legion that Ill. state and federal troops would defend them. It was also agreed that the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS would leave Nauvoo by the spring of 1846. The orders given by governor Ford are part of Ill. history. No protection was ever provided and the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS were left without means of defense. No effort was ever made to disarm the enemies of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS.

2. By September of 1845 homes and farms of LDS members in country areas away from Nauvoo, were attacked and burned and some members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS killed. All members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS came to Nauvoo there supplies were limited. Legal papers were filed with the state concerning these events, but without relief for the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS.

3. Starting in October attacks were taking place on members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS with in Nauvoo. On November 19th 1845 Edmund Durfee was shot to death and his home and one other burned to the ground. By the middle of December several members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS were killed. Recorded in the News Paper the Nauvoo Neighbor. Papers were filed in Handcock County with the state.

4. In January of 1846 orders were given by Governor Ford for State troops to march to Nauvoo and place the town under martial law. It was leaked to the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS leaders that the “Mormons” would not be allowed to leave in the spring and that all leaders would be taken and held prisoners. It was believe the leaders would be executed in a manner similar to Joseph Smith. Most (about 15000) members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS left Nauvoo when the Mississippi froze over and negotiated not to return if the remaining members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS would be allowed to leave in the spring.

The governor of Iowa warned that because of trouble with native Americans the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS were in grave danger. Since they was unarmed it was believed that they would be killed, but instead they were assisted by native Americans. However by spring 3000 of the 15000 or 1 in 5 members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS died either at Winter Quarters or on their way there. The names of those that died are maintained by the State of Nebraska and are buried at what is now a state park in what is now known as the town of Florence Nebraska.

The Traveler

[Snow]

Traveler,

Of course nothing excuses the terrorism that the saints were subjected to, but how much of the trouble that followed could have been avoided if the saints hadn't done some things leading up to it like destroying of the printing press, practicing illegal polygamy, etc?

[Traveler]

Traveler,

Of course nothing excuses the terrorism that the saints were subjected to, but how much of the trouble that followed could have been avoided if the saints hadn't done some things leading up to it like destroying of the printing press, practicing illegal polygamy, etc?

I think you are speculating (playing without a full deck) incorrectly. I doubt that there would have been near the problems if the saints had not disarmed (espically the cannon) and stood down the Nauvoo Legion. What this does show is that the saints were willing to go beyond reason and good sense in efforts for peace. As to broken laws that you are claiming - I was not aware of any polygamy laws in Ill. prior to 1845. Would you please provide your source?

The Traveler

[Jason]

As to broken laws that you are claiming - I was not aware of any polygamy laws in Ill. prior to 1845. Would you please provide your source?

There was an anti-bigamy law passed I believe in the 1830's in Illinois. I don't have a source handy, but Im sure someone will find it.

[john doe]

I think you are speculating (playing without a full deck) incorrectly.

I think this is the first time one of our more sane members has accused Snow of not playing with a full deck.

Of course, Ari and Peace did when they threw tantrums, but they obviously were not sane.

[Traveler]

<div class='quotemain'>

As to broken laws that you are claiming - I was not aware of any polygamy laws in Ill. prior to 1845. Would you please provide your source?

There was an anti-bigamy law passed I believe in the 1830's in Illinois. I don't have a source handy, but Im sure someone will find it.

A side note here on laws concerning religion. The year was 1829 in the state of New York when a law (with teeth) was passed that prevented the threat of life or property for belonging to an non Trinitarian religion - even though the constitution speaks of freedom of religion. Never-the-less it would be over 100 years before the plunder of native American lives and property would be prevented and respected through out the nation in the courts of law. The NY law was specifically crafted to prevent the plunder of Jewish life and property and did nothing when the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS were plundered and driven from New York state.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

I think you are speculating (playing without a full deck) incorrectly.

I think this is the first time one of our more sane members has accused Snow of not playing with a full deck.

Of course, Ari and Peace did when they threw tantrums, but they obviously were not sane.

In case there is question - I am not suggesting that Snow has any rational problems - I am only suggesting that for this matter that it appears to me that he is playing "Devils Advocate" (ignoring some facts) rather than posting accurately. He may have had good intention to keep the conversation going. :)

The Traveler

[Ray]

... Ari and Peace <"accused Snow of not playing with a full deck"> when they threw tantrums, but they obviously were not sane.

Yes they were. They just didn't speak with grace as they said some of the things that they said... and that is why a lot of people didn't always like to hear what they said.

And btw, Snow doesn't always speak with grace either when he says some of the things that he says, but a lot of people like to hear what he says because he makes people smile, or laugh. :)

[shanstress70]

<div class='quotemain'>

... Ari and Peace <"accused Snow of not playing with a full deck"> when they threw tantrums, but they obviously were not sane.

Yes they were. They just didn't speak with grace as they said some of the things that they said... and that is why a lot of people didn't always like to hear what they said.

And btw, Snow doesn't always speak with grace either when he says some of the things that he says, but a lot of people like to hear what he says because he makes people smile, or laugh. :)

You, OTOH, always speak 'with grace' though... right Ray?

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

... Ari and Peace <"accused Snow of not playing with a full deck"> when they threw tantrums, but they obviously were not sane.

Yes they were. They just didn't speak with grace as they said some of the things that they said... and that is why a lot of people didn't always like to hear what they said.

And btw, Snow doesn't always speak with grace either when he says some of the things that he says, but a lot of people like to hear what he says because he makes people smile, or laugh. :)

You, OTOH, always speak 'with grace' though... right Ray?

No, you silly girl. We all can fall from grace sometimes... but hopefully we'll ask to be picked up.

[srm]

Traveler,

Of course nothing excuses the terrorism that the saints were subjected to, but how much of the trouble that followed could have been avoided if the saints hadn't done some things leading up to it like destroying of the printing press, practicing illegal polygamy, etc?

The problems started long before the press was destroyed.

I think that it more of an economic/political reason than polygamy...

[JohnTaylor1886]

The press was destroyed because it was considered a public nuisance. HC 6:449:

"By virtue of my office as Mayor of the city of Nauvoo, I do hereby strictly enjoin it upon the municipal officers and citizens of said city to use all honorable and lawful means in their power to assist me in maintaining the public peace and common quiet of said city. As attempts have already been made to excite the jealousy and prejudice of the people of the surrounding country, by libels and slanderous articles upon the citizens and City Council, for the purpose of destroying the charter of said city, and for the purpose of raising suspicion, wrath, and indignation among a certain class of the less honorable portion of mankind, to commit acts of violence upon the innocent and unsuspecting, in a certain newspaper called the Nauvoo Expositor, recently established for such purposes in said city, and which has been destroyed as a nuisance, according to the provision of the charter. I further call upon every officer, authority, and citizen to be vigilant in preventing, by wisdom the promulgation of false statements, libels, slanders, or any other malicious or evil-designed concern that may be put in operation to excite and ferment the passions of men to rebel against the rights and privileges of the city, citizens, or laws of the land; to be ready to suppress the gathering of mobs; to repel, by gentle means and noble exertion, every foul scheme of unprincipled men to disgrace and dishonor the city, or state, or any of their legally-constituted authorities; and, finally to keep the peace by being cool, considerate, virtuous, unoffending, manly, and patriotic, as the true sons of liberty ever have been, and honorably maintain the precious boon our illustrious fathers won.In witness whereof I have hereunto set my hand and affixed the seal of said corporation at the city of Nauvoo, this 11th day of June, 1844.Joseph Smith, Mayor."

It was Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes who introduced the phrase "clear and present danger" in 1919. (This is where the argument came that standing up and shouting "Fire!" in a theater is not protected under the 1st Amendment.) There was a clear and present danger in this case, because the Nauvoo Expositor was inciting the enemies of the Saints to violence, and this was done from within the Saints' own city. Even today, such laws exist to grant shutting down newspapers or other media when their agenda is to incite violence and put lives in danger. That is why judges sometimes issue a gag order. Now, even though the "clear and present danger" statute did not come into existence until some 75 years after the Nauvoo Expositor was destroyed. Reading from HC 6:445, it was clear that even during those times, legal remedies provided for the stoppage of a newspaper that was known to publish libels.

[Snow]

<div class='quotemain'>

Traveler,

Of course nothing excuses the terrorism that the saints were subjected to, but how much of the trouble that followed could have been avoided if the saints hadn't done some things leading up to it like destroying of the printing press, practicing illegal polygamy, etc?

I think you are speculating (playing without a full deck) incorrectly. I doubt that there would have been near the problems if the saints had not disarmed (espically the cannon) and stood down the Nauvoo Legion. What this does show is that the saints were willing to go beyond reason and good sense in efforts for peace. As to broken laws that you are claiming - I was not aware of any polygamy laws in Ill. prior to 1845. Would you please provide your source?

The Traveler

Oh come on Traveler. You've been around long enough to know that it was illegal, and illegal or not, the Church wasn't honest about, and dishonest or not, other people didn't like it.

How much of the trouble might have been avoided if the Church (Joseph) hadn't engaged in such behavior?

In case there is question - I am not suggesting that Snow has any rational problems - I am only suggesting that for this matter that it appears to me that he is playing "Devils Advocate" (ignoring some facts) rather than posting accurately. He may have had good intention to keep the conversation going. :)

The Traveler

Of course if you can show that I am inaccurate, that would be one thing. But you can't so address the question.

The press was destroyed because it was considered a public nuisance. HC 6:449:

That is the excuse offered but the reason is becasue Joseph lost his cool, got mad and acted recklessly.

[Ray]

Hey Snow,

Why do you think polygamy was illegal in Illinois prior to 1845? I personally do not know what the laws were back then, and I’m wondering if you can tell us how to know. I tried googling for the laws in the Illinois state constitution, but it seems to have been updated since then. And I also had trouble separating the facts from the fiction, and I’m wondering if you can tell us how to do that.

From another perspective, would our Lord tell the saints to violate the laws of the land if polygamy was illegal back then… when HE gave that commandment through revelation to Joseph and the members of the Church back then? Surely HE would have known if it was illegal to practice polygamy back then, so would HE have told them to practice it anyway knowing they would be breaking that law? And what if HE did? What would that mean? Should we obey HIM or that law of the land? I personally would endure all the trouble in the world while knowing I was obedient to HIM… and sometimes we must choose to do what is right even if all in the world would be against us.

And why do you say that Joseph acted “recklessly” when he voted to destroy that printing press for that rag in Nauvoo? It was considered a public nuisance by the vote of City council and the Mayor who was then in Nauvoo… and they all had the authority to make that decision and then tell the sheriff there to destroy it.

Thanks for your thoughts. And thanks for your time. I'll look forward to hearing what you think. :)

[Snow]

Hey Snow,

Why do you think polygamy was illegal in Illinois prior to 1845? I personally do not know what the laws were back then, and I’m wondering if you can tell us how to know. I tried googling for the laws in the Illinois state constitution, but it seems to have been updated since then. And I also had trouble separating the facts from the fiction, and I’m wondering if you can tell us how to do that.

"Sec 121. Bigamy consists in the having of two wives or two husbands at one and the same time, knowing that the former husband or wife is still alive. If any person or persons within this State, being married, or who shall hereafter marry, do at any time marry any person or persons, the former husband or wife being alive, the person so offending shall, on conviction thereof, be punished by a fine, not exceeding one thousand dollars, and imprisoned in the penitentiary, not exceeding two years. It shall not be necessary to prove either of the said marriages by the register or certificate thereof, or other record evidence; but the same may be proved by such evidence as is admissible to prove a marriage in other cases, and when such second marriage shall have taken place without this state, cohabitation in this state after such second marriage shall be deemed the commission of the crime of bigamy, and the trial in such case may take place in the county where such cohabitation shall have occurred."

Revised Laws of Illinois, 1833, p.198-99

From another perspective, would our Lord tell the saints to violate the laws of the land if polygamy was illegal back then… when HE gave that commandment through revelation to Joseph and the members of the Church back then? Surely HE would have known if it was illegal to practice polygamy back then, so would HE have told them to practice it anyway knowing they would be breaking that law? And what if HE did? What would that mean? Should we obey HIM or that law of the land? I personally would endure all the trouble in the world while knowing I was obedient to HIM… and sometimes we must choose to do what is right even if all in the world would be against us.

The point is that it was illegal AND the Church (Joseph Smith) maintained that we should obey the laws of the land AND (Mormons believe) God commanded JS to practice polygamy.

That's a contradiction. I can't explain it.

And why do you say that Joseph acted “recklessly” when he voted to destroy that printing press for that rag in Nauvoo? It was considered a public nuisance by the vote of City council and the Mayor who was then in Nauvoo… and they all had the authority to make that decision and then tell the sheriff there to destroy it.

While it may be true that JS THOUGHT he was acting legally - or close to it - legal experts, in the final analysis, say that he probably was not. Legal or not, the actions were rash as the end result was a pogrom that led to his death.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

The point is that it was illegal AND the Church (Joseph Smith) maintained that we should obey the laws of the land AND (Mormons believe) God commanded JS to practice polygamy.

That's a contradiction. I can't explain it.

It's these aspects of our Church's history that I find fascinating. I can't explain it either. Doesn't affect my testimony, but I've had great discussions about stuff like this w/my brothers and parents.

[predator]

From another perspective, would our Lord tell the saints to violate the laws of the land if polygamy was illegal back then… when HE gave that commandment through revelation to Joseph and the members of the Church back then? Surely HE would have known if it was illegal to practice polygamy back then, so would HE have told them to practice it anyway knowing they would be breaking that law? And what if HE did? What would that mean? Should we obey HIM or that law of the land? I personally would endure all the trouble in the world while knowing I was obedient to HIM… and sometimes we must choose to do what is right even if all in the world would be against us.

Well we know that smith had a revelation where god told him to practice polygamy. Its in sections 132 of doctrine and covenants. line 60, 61 get straight to the point and you can look it up in the churches website. Actually heres the link http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132.

I have been a lurker here for some time because to tell you the truth im looking for a reason to go back to the lds church. I just cannot go back after finding out information like d & c sec 132. I am posting today because your mentality scares me. You will obey whatever you think god wants you to do. You would have been a polygamist if you lived i those times because you think whatever smith said was true because god told him so. Even if smith had those revelations with god and god told him to get more wwives does it make it right just because god says so? most christians will say whatever god says is true, i cant live my life with that logic. GOd could potentially say raping a 10 year old girl is right, would it make it so?(extreme example) There are things in life that we can recognize as being right or wrong. Most would agree raping is wrong, killing etc. Do we really need a god to tell us what is right?

Now to make things worst the mormon god changes his mind. He said to smith polygamy was needed to get into the celestial kingdom, now he says polygamy is wrong (or maybe it was influence from the govt, and needed for utah to become a state?). He said before 1978 that blacks couldnt hold the priesthood until ever single other race could and that blacks were to be last and then he changed his mind (or perhaps it was because of social pressure?). People describe god as a pure, perfect supreme being, not capable of changing. So this raises my question did god change his mind throughout the years or were the previous church prophets fake?

[Snow]

I am posting today because your mentality scares me.

Oh - the drama!

You will obey whatever you think god wants you to do.

As opposed to what you would do? .... disobeying what you think God wants. That's an odd position to take.

GOd could potentially say raping a 10 year old girl is right, would it make it so?

Oh - more drama. That's good. How about this. God potentially could say that we should make french fries out of sugar beets and put pencils in our noses. The horror! How could a diety be some bizarre? Certainly God does not exist.

Now to make things worst the mormon god changes his mind.

Dumb point. Mormons don't believe that God changes his mind.

now he says polygamy is wrong

No wonder you are searching in vain for a reason to return to the Church. You don't understand LDS doctrine or history.

He said before 1978 that blacks couldnt hold the priesthood until ever single other race could and that blacks were to be last and then he changed his mind

Really? Proof please.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

I have been a lurker here for some time because to tell you the truth im looking for a reason to go back to the lds church.

Were you raised in the church? How long have you been a member? Why would you join a church whose "founder" you consider to be a false prophet? Aspects of your post make me wonder if you're just posing as an LDS to gain street cred here. Correct me if I'm wrong, by all means.

[shanstress70]

<div class='quotemain'>

I have been a lurker here for some time because to tell you the truth im looking for a reason to go back to the lds church.

Were you raised in the church? How long have you been a member? Why would you join a church whose "founder" you consider to be a false prophet? Aspects of your post make me wonder if you're just posing as an LDS to gain street cred here. Correct me if I'm wrong, by all means.

From personal experience, it is possible to think that Joseph Smith was a true prophet, then later find out through research, prayer, etc. that he was a false prophet. When I had discussions with the missionaries, there was lots of info that I didn't receive at that time. I know of many people who have had this experience.

[predator]

<div class='quotemain'>

I am posting today because your mentality scares me.

snow- Oh - the drama!

You will obey whatever you think god wants you to do.

snow- As opposed to what you would do? .... disobeying what you think God wants. That's an odd position to take.

me- I dont know what god wants. People all over the world claim to know what god wants and many times it leads to wars.

GOd could potentially say raping a 10 year old girl is right, would it make it so?

snow- Oh - more drama. That's good. How about this. God potentially could say that we should make french fries out of sugar beets and put pencils in our noses. The horror! How could a diety be some bizarre? Certainly God does not exist.

me- I personally believe in god. I however dont think he is involved in our lives. I try and live a moral life. I dont think we need god to tell us what is wrong and what is right.

Now to make things worst the mormon god changes his mind.

snow- Dumb point. Mormons don't believe that God changes his mind.

me- so prophets change their mind then? Joseph smith said polygamy was good. fact. hinkley has said polygamy is wrong. fact. Who is right then? could god have told both prophets what they claim? its a contradiction

now he says polygamy is wrong

snow- No wonder you are searching in vain for a reason to return to the Church. You don't understand LDS doctrine or history.

me- apparently you dont.

He said before 1978 that blacks couldnt hold the priesthood until ever single other race could and that blacks were to be last and then he changed his mind

Really? Proof please.

cant find exact quote for that, but here is another racist quotes. btw church not allowing blacks priesthood until 1978. fact

Church leader Bruce R. McConkie, on the denial of equality for Africans:

“NEGROES IN THIS LIFE ARE DENIED THE PRIESTHOOD; under NO circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. The gospel message of salvation IS NOT CARRIED AFFIRMATIVELY TO THEM... “NEGROES ARE NOT EQUAL WITH OTHER RACES WHERE THE RECEIPT OF CERTAIN SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS ARE CONCERNED...” (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, p. 477)

[predator]

<div class='quotemain'>

I have been a lurker here for some time because to tell you the truth im looking for a reason to go back to the lds church.

Were you raised in the church? How long have you been a member? Why would you join a church whose "founder" you consider to be a false prophet? Aspects of your post make me wonder if you're just posing as an LDS to gain street cred here. Correct me if I'm wrong, by all means.

i was raised a catholic until i was 6 years old. We never attended church regularly and i dont remember much about the church. we converted when i was 7, i got baptised when i turned 8. we were active until i was 13 or so. I then returned to the church on my own (parents never returned) when i was 15. I got really involved, made some great friends and was happy. I however was one of those kids who questions everything. After a while i was looked upon as a troublemaker and people questioned my faith. I would respond by saying that im trying to get faith. I tried really hard. Thnigs like men holding the priesthood and women not being able really bothered me. When i starting working they asked for tithing money, i refused. I was working to help my family (at the time we were in bad shape financially) and they got angry with me. They said it was gods money and its a small price to pay for the blessings and good health god has given me. They would bring it up a lot and i felt wrong not paying. I never did pay a penny.

sorry for the rant i could go on but i dont think this is the thread for that. to get to the point i learned a lot of things about the church from church doctrine (book of mormon, doctrine and conenants, journal of discourses, etc) and listened to former members giving me reasons on why they left. I wanted to learn more about the church, the history, and i felt the best way to learn was to question everything. Technically im an LDS, however im not active and dont believe in a lot of LDS beliefs. I shouldnt call myself LDS. From now on i wont.

[shanstress70]

Have you ever asked your parents why they became inactive? Just curious if they stopped believing and went to another denomination, believe LDS but don't go for whatever reason, or stopped believing in anything... etc.?

[predator]

my mom believes in god and my dad doesnt (he is those science guys who wants proof). They stated to me about a year ago that the only reason they converted to LDS was because they thought the church would be a good influence on me and my 3 older brothers (one of which who was always getting in fights at school at the time) she was right it was a great influence on us and i to this day think there is a lot of good in the LDS church.

after we all grew up my parents left it up to us whether we wanted to attend church or not (my brothers had just turned 17-18 and i was around 13). My dad studied the church, the books, the teachings and always had problems with it. when i started going back to the church on my own and asked him questions regarding the church (polygamy, racism, etc) he would tell me to do my own research and come up with my own conclusion. I did that.

[shanstress70]

That's interesting. It's great that they didn't push you one way or the other, but encouraged you to make up your own mind.

Do you mind me asking how old you are?