Core Belief ?'s

[Ray]

Heh, what made you think I was talking about Traveler's discussion with pushka?

I am saying that you didn't understand Traveler and the thoughts he was sharing with YOU, silly.

[Traveler]

I think this is where we cannot agree with each other Traveler...Your sentence 'If the best we can offer is gay parents - we have failed', sounds to me as if you consider gays to be akin to 2nd class citizens? I'm sure that isn't what you really mean, but that is how it sounds.

Loving, Gay couples are much better than unloving/uncaring straight couples, and I don't see how the failure of one set of parents can be blamed on society as a whole?

I am sorry you understood me to imply that gays are 2nd class citizens? I never intended to imply that. I do not think someone has to be a parent to qualify for a first class of citizen. What I did mean to imply is that they are 2nd class parents at their very best possible. Getting your own children is not a right of citizenship. Citizens do not own children or have default right to them - Children are to me a higher class of citizen than adults. Having children is a responsibility not a right. For me the only 1st class parents are a father and a mother each fulfilling their responsibilities as a father and a mother. I agree that a gay couple that is loving and caring and willing to sacrifice their personal passions and desires for children is better than straight couples that prefer following their personal passions and desires rather than care for children. We agree on that point (even though I see some irony it that) - what I am not sure if is if you really believe a father and a mother doing what mothers and fathers are supposed to do is really the best option. You kind of sometimes agree but then you say gay couples should be equal because that is better than children in homes where they are not loved and cared for - Which is a point that I agree 100% with.

The operative notion here is personal passions and desires on the one hand and the loving and care of children on the other. Which is the priority? If someone is willing to put their personal passions and desires at a higher priority than creating and caring for children - that in my mind makes them 2nd class parents. And I do not care if they are straight, gay or any other possibility. If a married man or married women has an affair - regardless of what-ever they do, they are second class parents (or worse) in my mind. If you are going to put any personal pleasure, passion or desire before taking responsibility for children - I cannot accept that thinking as 1st class parent thinking. In fact I consider that the very essence of child abuse if a child is in your care. Where do you draw the line for protecting your children from abuse?

The Traveler

[Dr T]

Hi Ray,

Okay. That is why I was asking him all the questions I was asking. That is a good way to learn. :) I thought you meant something that was quoted after you said that in the discussion between him, Pushka and SS. My brain is really scattered today.

Dr. T

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

I think this is where we cannot agree with each other Traveler...Your sentence 'If the best we can offer is gay parents - we have failed', sounds to me as if you consider gays to be akin to 2nd class citizens? I'm sure that isn't what you really mean, but that is how it sounds.

Loving, Gay couples are much better than unloving/uncaring straight couples, and I don't see how the failure of one set of parents can be blamed on society as a whole?

I am sorry you understood me to imply that gays are 2nd class citizens? I never intended to imply that. I do not think someone has to be a parent to qualify for a first class of citizen. What I did mean to imply is that they are 2nd class parents at their very best possible. Getting your own children is not a right of citizenship. Citizens do not own children or have default right to them - Children are to me a higher class of citizen than adults. Having children is a responsibility not a right. For me the only 1st class parents are a father and a mother each fulfilling their responsibilities as a father and a mother. I agree that a gay couple that is loving and caring and willing to sacrifice their personal passions and desires for children is better than straight couples that prefer following their personal passions and desires rather than care for children. We agree on that point (even though I see some irony it that) - what I am not sure if is if you really believe a father and a mother doing what mothers and fathers are supposed to do is really the best option. You kind of sometimes agree but then you say gay couples should be equal because that is better than children in homes where they are not loved and cared for - Which is a point that I agree 100% with.

The operative notion here is personal passions and desires on the one hand and the loving and care of children on the other. Which is the priority? If someone is willing to put their personal passions and desires at a higher priority than creating and caring for children - that in my mind makes them 2nd class parents. And I do not care if they are straight, gay or any other possibility. If a married man or married women has an affair - regardless of what-ever they do, they are second class parents (or worse) in my mind. If you are going to put any personal pleasure, passion or desire before taking responsibility for children - I cannot accept that thinking as 1st class parent thinking. In fact I consider that the very essence of child abuse if a child is in your care. Where do you draw the line for protecting your children from abuse?

The Traveler

Okay, to summarize Traveler's ideas on this point in a nutshell, for those who still do not get it:

People who totally embrace a homosexual lifestyle:

Are not the best citizens in all of society... because they are not the best of all parents.

AND

Are not the best of all parents in society... because they can't righteously "raise" their own children.

Please correct me if that is not what you think, Traveler, and regardless, it is what I think.

And btw, for those who might be thinking being bi-sexual might work, imaging actually having a bi-partner, not only to have sex with but to live your whole life with while being true and faithful to (it?).

Hi Ray,

Okay. That is why I was asking him all the questions I was asking. That is a good way to learn. :) I thought you meant something that was quoted after you said that in the discussion between him, Pushka and SS. My brain is really scattered today.

Dr. T

You and he actually agreed on those thoughts you were sharing, yet you did not see the agreement. :)

[pushka]

Traveler, thanks for clarifying your point of view. I apologise for accusing you of possibly considering homosexual parents of being 2nd class citizens. I do agree that the most natural and therefore the best/ideal parentage is the male/female with their own natural born child. I'm just being very open minded and trying to be fair to all who have the same devotion to bringing up a child, whether or not it is their own natural child.

Yes, I also agree that when you decide to have children (I don't mean own them, btw :)) you should accept all of the responsibilities that go with raising children, and should always put them first..it was partly this attitude of mine which caused the breakdown of my marriage!

Ray, thanks for your input. I'm sorry that my comments to Traveler caused you some discomfort. I don't assign people in society into classes, I was just responding to the way in which I interpreted Traveler's comments. I hope that he can believe me when I say that I did not mean to imply that he DEFINITELY believed that, which is why I said 'I'm sure that's not what you really mean'.

[Snow]

And btw, for those who might be thinking being bi-sexual might work, imaging actually having a bi-partner...

Okay. I'm imagining it.

Do I have tell my bishop tomorrow?

[boyando]

<div class='quotemain'>

And btw, for those who might be thinking being bi-sexual might work, imaging actually having a bi-partner...

Okay. I'm imagining it.

Do I have tell my bishop tomorrow?

No, not unless you are enjoying the idea. And that's not the Snow I know.

[Dr T]

Hey Snow,

Hypothetically, what if you did enjoy it (like Allmosthumble laid down as the line not to cross) would you have to go to your bishop? Does anyone do that with every single sinful thought (that we enjoy)? What would going to the bishop do about this specific issue?

Just wondering

Dr. T