My first interaction with an actual anti-Mormon

[prisonchaplain]

While references to the Nicolaitans were vague, the apparently allowed for syncretizing of Christianity and Paganism. They engaged in some sexual immorality and ate foods sacrificed to idols, in violation of the Acts council.

See: Bible Dictionary: Nicolaitans

[Blackmarch]

So, I was on youtube looking up some LDS videos to try and promote the LDS advertising campaign by giving them more views and looking for ones I could link to my facebook profile that might be uplifting to my non-member friends, and I came across an anti-Mormon video. It was cleverly disguised as an informative video about what Mormons believe and teach, and the user had an "official" looking name, so I didn't know I was clicking on an anti-film until I was already watching it.

Specifically, he was addressing whether or not Mormons are Christian and brought up many quotes from past prophets that he twisted into attacks on Christianity by taking them out of context. He seems to have a following of viewers who support and believe his interpretation of "Mormonism" and while I generally avoid confrontations I felt like it might be a good idea to provide an informative comment. It has resulted in the following conversation:

Me: You have taken many things that past leaders of the LDS church have said out of context and generalized their statements so that the meaning is twisted into something different. This makes your argument fallicious. The full name of the LDS church is The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints. The definition of Christian is someone who believes in Christ. Mormons are Chirstian, just as anyone else who believes in Christ is Christian. It's as simple as that.

Him: That is your definition of a Christian, not mine or the historical one. Would you consider me a Mormon because I believe in Jesus Christ?

If you can show me how those quotes don't mean what they appear to mean by using context, I would be interested to see that.

Me: Not all Christians are Mormon, but all Mormons are Christian. Christian is an all-encompassing definition of anyone who believes in Christ, while Mormon is a more specific description of a small group of Christians.

Your quotes are not references to "Christianity" but to "the great and abominable church", full context and understanding of which can be found in Steven E. Robinson's Ensign article "Warring Against the Saints of God", something you can easily google.

Him: Like I said in the video, it depends on how you define 'Christian'. Your definition is that its 'all-encompassing', and mine (and history's) is that it pertains to a particular Jesus (not Mormonism's), and is predicated on belief in Christian doctrine. Make it a semantics thing if you want, but your beliefs are not related to mine.

Its pretty clear in those teachings that "the great and abominable church" is anything not Mormon. My website has the link to the larger quotes.

Me: First- how is the Mormon Jesus different? We believe in the same Jesus that was born in Bethlehem to the virgin Mary, taught and ministered in Jerusalem, is the Only Begotten Son of God, was crucified and atoned for the sins of the world, and is now a resurrected living being. Different? How? Sounds to me like LDS are worshipping the same person as other Christians. Doesn't mean you have to be associated with them, but you shouldn't try to discount their belief in Christ.

Second- Did you even read that article? Quote- "Just as there are some Latter-day Saints who belong to the great and abominable church because of their loyalty to Satan and his life-style, so there are members of other churches who belong to the Lamb because of their loyalty to him and his life-style. Membership is based more on who has your heart than on who has your records". So... it can even include some Mormons and is not "anything not Mormon".

Him: Well no, Mormonism teaches God the Father had real relations with Mary, so she wasn't a virgin. How about, my Jesus didn't go to South America, wasn't spirit brothers with Satan, wasn't a polygamist, didn't atone for sin in Gethsemane, is God, etc. You can watch my video called 'Is Mormonism Another Gospel?'.

And no I didn't read the article, I was talking about the quotes from your prophets. I'm not concerned with a guy writing articles who doesn't officially speak for the church doing damage control on church image, I'm concerned with what your apostles have officially said.

Me: I was never taught that God had real relations with Mary, so saying that Mormonism teaches such is completely false since I'm LDS. We do not believe he was a polygamist. We believe that PART of the atonement happened while he was praying in Gethsemane and that he visited the people in South American AFTER he was resurrected, yes which is what makes us different from mainstream Christianity. We believe in a premortal existance which makes us ALL spirit brothers and sisters. Everything about who Jesus was though is the same. We can believe different things about the same person, it doesn't make him a different person. It's more a "we believe Jesus did this TOO", not "we believe in a totally different person".

Also, the Ensign is a LDS endorsed magazine, so articles in it are "officially" from the church. All articles have to be approved by the prophet/apostles before they can be included as this magazine is considered to be the "modern doctrine" of the church to help us in our study of scripture and to understand modern revelations.

Him: Just because it wasn't personally taught to you doesn't mean that it wasn't taught at all. It was, look it up. It doesn't matter that the church doesn't currently emphasize it if they never retracted it.

What if I said Jesus was Chinese and went to Antarctica and was gay, but was still the same Jesus as yours? From my point of view, if you believe anything about Christ that's not strictly biblical, then its a different guy. Your point of view is different.

Me: Yes, we have a different point of view but that does not mean we do not have at least some similarities. LDS members believe in the Bible and all the teachings within it, we just believe in MORE than the Bible. If you said Jesus was Chinese, went to Antarctica and was gay I would still call you Christian. I would just say we would have to agree to disargee on those particular details of his life and ministry.

At this point, I feel like I'm just going in circles, but I guess I should have expected that when I first posted... Any thoughts on this? Is it even possible to bring something like this to a graceful conclusion or will I just have to let him have the final word?

I just review the movie in a comment and then move on rather than sit around to "discusss", in general, it's easier reasoning with moon conspiracy theorists...

sometimes i'll link to this video with the comment, "I find that this explains this video very well"

depending if i can't /facepalm enough in the comments if the video is eally out there. Edited July 28, 2011 by Blackmarch