How Do You Know?

[Jason]

I can't say, because there has never been a time or place on planet earth, without religion. There are many types of religion and you seem to think that the only bad religion is the one's that require faith and morales. I know, I know, you have morales.

Philosophy and science can provide us with all we need to know regarding morality. You're just reaching now.

How about the religion of greed? What would be the chances of war breaking out in an area with a lot of oil? I guess they would just be all love and flowers. But then again, we will never know because everyone has a religion.

Greed cannot be a "religion" strictly speaking. It's a human craving, but cannot be classified as a religion. Im not saying that people would suddenly stop murdering, raping, or any other crime without religion. But using "god" as an excuse would end.

Jason, I love you man, but for someone who has done so much studying, I thought you would come up with more than a "strawman" defense.

Don't be silly. You cannot create a scientific study of a group of formerly religious Jews and Muslims living in the middle east who for a set time period give up their beliefs just to verify whether or not they would still fight each other to protect the "holy land".

While it seems like a given that they'd stop killing each other for religious reasons should they cease being religious, apparently it is not so for you.

Hey Jason,

As a side note, how do you know that YOUR religion is true...

I don't pretend that it is. First of all, it's not a "religion". There are no beliefs. It is an illuminist church. "Belief" plays no part in it. You can arrive at illumination in other ways, ours is not the "only" way.

..or that what you are saying about our (LDS) religion is or was not inspired by Satan who may have managed to convince you or inspire you to believe that our (LDS) religion is false?

Ray, when you can prove that "god" is talking to you, or that you've been inspired by "god" as opposed to the "devil" and provide suffience evidence to support the same, then I will spend time helping you see my view point.

But again, until you can explain yourself fully, I see no need to explain myself.

[Dr T]

Thanks Ray,

We read in 2Cr 11:14 "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light." That is what I'm trying to figure out here. If Satan is the great deceiver and out verification for belief is based on "I saw the light" it seems that Satan can use trickery to lead people astray making them believe in something that is not true. That is why Jason is asking for more solid evidence or at least the process that is set apart from any other false religion.

Thank you

[Ray]

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Hey Jason,

As a side note, how do you know that YOUR religion is true...

I don't pretend that it is. First of all, it's not a "religion". There are no beliefs. It is an illuminist church. "Belief" plays no part in it. You can arrive at illumination in other ways, ours is not the "only" way.

Are you now trying to tell me that you have no beliefs at all, regarding your beliefs or the beliefs of your church?

I know you have some beliefs that involve what you believe regarding why you believe in that church.

For instance, why do you believe in what that church believes, and how do you know that is true?

And btw, I'm using the word "church" to refer to the people who have a particular religion.

And I'm using the word "religion" to refer to a set of beliefs which are held by a particular church.

And I'm using the word "beliefs" to refer to what someone believes after choosing to believe what they think.

And I'm explaining what I mean by using all of these words because you seem to be playing with semantics.

(Further discussion on that other point is now being suspended until we can agree on this point)

What do you believe, Jason... I know you do believe something... even if you believe that you don't really believe in anything.

And after answering that question, (and I won't force you to write it down), how do you know what you believe is true... or how do you know that you don't really believe in anything?

(And I know you're not as stupid as you're pretending)

[Ray]

You almost answered your own question, Doc...

Satan can use trickery to lead people astray making them believe in something that is not true.

Except to clarify what you said I would say that Satan uses trickery to try to lead people astray by influencing them to believe in something that is not good.... since Satan can't "make" us believe (or force us to do anything) and it is true in the sense that he truly believes what he believes... even though what he believes is in fact very "wrong", or "evil", or "not conducive to goodness".

Or in other words, Satan and his allies always try to influence us to NOT BELIEVE the true gospel of Jesus Christ, while God and His allies, including the Holy Ghost, always try to influence us to BELIEVE it.

And you can then choose to BELIEVE, or NOT BELIEVE it.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Dr. T, there's no one answer that will satisfy you. Eventually one comes to the cliff of conviction and must take a step of faith off the edge. That's all there is to it.

[Jason]

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Hey Jason,

As a side note, how do you know that YOUR religion is true...

I don't pretend that it is. First of all, it's not a "religion". There are no beliefs. It is an illuminist church. "Belief" plays no part in it. You can arrive at illumination in other ways, ours is not the "only" way.

Are you now trying to tell me that you have no beliefs at all, regarding your beliefs or the beliefs of your church?

My church has no beliefs. Belief is frowned upon. "The Thomasine Church subscribes to a philosophy not religious dogma. We seek to Know, to Will, to Dare and to Keep Silent." (http://thomasinechurch.org/homepage2.html)

I know you have some beliefs that involve what you believe regarding why you believe in that church.

I don't believe in this church, Ray.

For instance, why do you believe in what that church believes, and how do you know that is true?

This church is a philosophical church. Not a religious one. There are no beliefs.

And btw, I'm using the word "church" to refer to the people who have a particular religion.

Great. The Thomasine church is not a religion.

And I'm using the word "religion" to refer to a set of beliefs which are held by a particular church.

Great. We have no beliefs. We have philosophy. Questioning the teachings of the church is the status quo here.

And I'm using the word "beliefs" to refer to what someone believes after choosing to believe what they think.

Good. Then we have no beliefs. We do not "choose" what to believe.

And I'm explaining what I mean by using all of these words because you seem to be playing with semantics.

No, you can't break outside of your paradigm. Most "religions" would consider us atheists.

[Ray]

Dr. T, there's no one answer that will satisfy you. Eventually one comes to the cliff of conviction and must take a step of faith off the edge. That's all there is to it.

But when ones takes a "step of faith" they are walking with assurance (from somebody) to assure them that the step they are taking will lead them to where they thought they were going while taking those steps on their journey.

And when God has assured us we also have LIGHT so we know we are not walking in darkness.

[Ray]

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Hey Jason,

As a side note, how do you know that YOUR religion is true...

I don't pretend that it is. First of all, it's not a "religion". There are no beliefs. It is an illuminist church. "Belief" plays no part in it. You can arrive at illumination in other ways, ours is not the "only" way.

Are you now trying to tell me that you have no beliefs at all, regarding your beliefs or the beliefs of your church?

My church has no beliefs. Belief is frowned upon. "The Thomasine Church subscribes to a philosophy not religious dogma. We seek to Know, to Will, to Dare and to Keep Silent." (http://thomasinechurch.org/homepage2.html)

So that’s what you believe. Okay. That’s interesting. So how do you know what is good for you?

I don't believe in this church, Ray.

Then why are you a member, if you don’t believe in that church, or what that church believes in?

This church is a philosophical church. Not a religious one. There are no beliefs.

Even if that church only has “philosophical beliefs”, those still can be called their beliefs. And if they philosophize about God and teach others their beliefs about God, I would call that a church with religion.

The Thomasine church is not a religion.

No church is a religion, Jason. A church is a group of people with religious beliefs, and a religion is a set of beliefs about God and His way. So if that church has beliefs about God and His way, I would call that a church with religion.

We have no beliefs. We have philosophy. Questioning the teachings of the church is the status quo here.

So you’re saying their beliefs are constantly changing? You may have finally found the perfect church for you, Jason. :)

We do not "choose" what to believe.

Then tell me, who does? I’ll ask God to help straighten him out... or them out, as the case may be.

Most "religions" would consider us atheists.

Ahh, I see. You don’t believe in any God that most others believe in and you also don’t agree with yourselves. You simply believe whatever you want to believe, and you get together with others to either keep silent or ask questions, without anyone telling you what to believe.

If that works for you, Jason, and you are happy with that, don’t worry, I’m not asking you to believe what I believe. I’m just trying to help clarify how to believe what I believe, and the beliefs of our (LDS) church.

:)

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Am I the only one with a headache after reading all this? No offense Dr. T, but you opened up a can with this thread.

Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Heb. 11:1)

Since they can't be seen, there can be no "proving" beyond doubt to everyone's satisfaction. Faith is personal, testimony is personal, it's something forged between you and God, and whether someone else believes you have a relationship with God or not is irrelevant.

On a lighter note, I read this quote the other day which I found amusing:

When you talk to God you're praying; when God talks to you you're schizophrenic.

[Ray]

On a lighter note, I read this quote the other day which I found amusing:

When you talk to God you're praying; when God talks to you you're schizophrenic.

Did you mean lighter as in less filling? I would say:

When you talk with God you're praying; when you can't feel Him with you, you're talking to yourself.

[Dr T]

Hello all,

Sorry for "the can." What I'm learning is that confidence in the things that we hold can be true or dismiss as untrue can be true and false. So, it comes down to opinion/belief that it is correct. We attribute these convictions to a higher power for weight or justification for our beliefs. Have to run, but I’ll continue later. Sorry,

Dr. T

[Guest ApostleKnight]

No Ray, I didn't mean less filling, I meant lighter...funnier...amusing. Relax.

[Dr T]

Sorry for that interruption.

What I'm learning from the posts on this thread is that confidence in the things that we hold can either be true or dismiss as untrue. These beliefs can in fact be true or false. What it comes down to is an opinion or a fundamental belief that it is correct or false. People attribute these convictions to a higher power which can lend some weight for their beliefs. When information is presented that is contradictory to logic, well reasoned information, scriptural support, etc., none of that really matters because we are basing these beliefs on the idea that, “we feel that we have direct communication with the all powerful God.” It feels right. I really don’t think that is what is trying to be communicated here but that is what I’m learning from this interaction. Can someone set me straight?

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Ray]

Hello all,

Sorry for "the can." What I'm learning is that confidence in the things that we hold can be true or dismiss as untrue can be true and false. So, it comes down to opinion/belief that it is correct. We attribute these convictions to a higher power for weight or justification for our beliefs. Have to run, but I’ll continue later. Sorry,

Dr. T

Hi Doc,

Unless I am not interpreting your words correctly, we seem to have different beliefs about faith, because I don't "attribute" the convictions I receive to a higher power for justification of my beliefs, I simply acknowledge that God has.

Or, can you say with me, that you receive some assurances from God, with His assurances assuring you of what He knows to be true, and good, as you are seeking to know what is right?

It's not me, Doc. It is God assuring me with His love, and knowledge, of all that He knows to be right.

No Ray, I didn't mean less filling, I meant lighter...funnier...amusing. Relax.

Oh. Okay then. You have your own "sense" of humor. I didn't think it was funny at all.

AND STOP TELLING ME TO RELAX. AS IF I AM NOT. I AM RELAXED ALL THE TIME.

Smart alec. :)

[Ray]

When information is presented that is contradictory to logic, well reasoned information, scriptural support, etc., none of that really matters because we are basing these beliefs on the idea that, “we feel that we have direct communication with the all powerful God.” It feels right. I really don’t think that is what is trying to be communicated here but that is what I’m learning from this interaction. Can someone set me straight?

Yes, God can. And His assurance won't be contradictory to logic or reasoned information, or scriptural support, etc.

Come now, He has said, and let us reason together. Though your sins be as scarlet they can be white as wool.

Do you know how Isaiah knew that to be true, Doc?

[Dr T]

Hi Ray,

I expected you to say "God can." :) Where I'm getting stuck Ray, is that Satan can be sending you the message that your beliefs are true but you might in actuality be missing the mark. All the while you are so secure that you have the corner on truth which you based on that "feeling." All I'm saying is that we read in scripture that Satan knows and uses the word to trick and tempt people. Adam and Eve were lead astray/deceived. He tried to use it when tempting Jesus...

How was it that Isaiah knew that to be true, Sir?

Thank you, Ray,

Dr. T

[Ray]

Satan will not tell you what is true, Doc. He may say something that is true, but he'll mix that with a lie, so the point he'll be making will be WRONG.

And yes it as simple as that.

For instance, when Satan once told Adam and Eve that they would not die by eating the fruit that was forbidden by God, he was telling the truth in saying they would become as God, but his point was to say they wouldn't die, and the message he was giving, overall, was wrong, even though it was mixed with some truth.

And you can see from what God said that he was true on one point in saying they would become as God, because our Father later said while He was talking to our Lord they had "become as one of us"... but they were still going to have to die.

And the way Isaiah knew that message was from God was because he was familiar with the promptings of the Holy Spirit, just as you and I can become familiar with those very same promptings and learn ALL truth from God.

:)

[Jason]

Thanks for getting us back on topic Dr T.

So Ray keeps making this assertion that God will only tell you the truth. But what exactly is the truth Ray, and how does it differ from error?

[Ray]

Truth is, very simply, as things are or were or will be, and error is, very simply, the opposite.

It's too bad you don't like thesauruses, or I would get you one.

You could learn a lot of things from good books. :)

[Jason]

Truth is, very simply, as things are or were or will be, and error is, very simply, the opposite.

By that standard anything that changes is "error". And using that standard, I could easily prove you are in "error".

Would you like to come up with a new definition of "truth"?

It's too bad you don't like thesauruses, or I would get you one.

Got one actually. But when a thesaurus gives so many varied meanings to a single word, the word becomes meaningless. Hence my rejection of the definition used in our last discussion.

[boyando]

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I can't say, because there has never been a time or place on planet earth, without religion. There are many types of religion and you seem to think that the only bad religion is the one's that require faith and morales. I know, I know, you have morales.

Philosophy and science can provide us with all we need to know regarding morality. You're just reaching now.

How about the religion of greed? What would be the chances of war breaking out in an area with a lot of oil? I guess they would just be all love and flowers. But then again, we will never know because everyone has a religion.

Greed cannot be a "religion" strictly speaking. It's a human craving, but cannot be classified as a religion. Im not saying that people would suddenly stop murdering, raping, or any other crime without religion. But using "god" as an excuse would end.

Jason, I love you man, but for someone who has done so much studying, I thought you would come up with more than a "strawman" defense.

Don't be silly. You cannot create a scientific study of a group of formerly religious Jews and Muslims living in the middle east who for a set time period give up their beliefs just to verify whether or not they would still fight each other to protect the "holy land".

While it seems like a given that they'd stop killing each other for religious reasons should they cease being religious, apparently it is not so for you.

Hey Jason,

As a side note, how do you know that YOUR religion is true...

I don't pretend that it is. First of all, it's not a "religion". There are no beliefs. It is an illuminist church. "Belief" plays no part in it. You can arrive at illumination in other ways, ours is not the "only" way.

..or that what you are saying about our (LDS) religion is or was not inspired by Satan who may have managed to convince you or inspire you to believe that our (LDS) religion is false?

Ray, when you can prove that "god" is talking to you, or that you've been inspired by "god" as opposed to the "devil" and provide suffience evidence to support the same, then I will spend time helping you see my view point.

But again, until you can explain yourself fully, I see no need to explain myself.

Your answer reveals all and yet see nothing.

[boyando]

Sorry for that interruption.

What I'm learning from the posts on this thread is that confidence in the things that we hold can either be true or dismiss as untrue. These beliefs can in fact be true or false. What it comes down to is an opinion or a fundamental belief that it is correct or false. People attribute these convictions to a higher power which can lend some weight for their beliefs. When information is presented that is contradictory to logic, well reasoned information, scriptural support, etc., none of that really matters because we are basing these beliefs on the idea that, “we feel that we have direct communication with the all powerful God.” It feels right. I really don’t think that is what is trying to be communicated here but that is what I’m learning from this interaction. Can someone set me straight?

Thanks,

Dr. T

One of the things that you have done for the members of the LDS church, who come to this site, is to remind us of how what we call a testemony is formed. Thank You Doc.

Although we are all children of our Heavenly Father, we are each individuals and gain a testimony in our own indndividual way. So we often talk about what is universal and leave out what is personal. I hope that you will allow me a little more time to gather what is personal about my testimony.

Another point is that we don't believe that other Church's, have every point of doctrine wrong. The same beautiful spirit that testify's to an evanglecal, that Jesus is the Christ, speaks to me with the same meassage. It is that same Holy Spirit, that give's us these "feelings", that we are fallowing the will of our Heavnly Father. We are not perfect and any Mormon who feels that they are more perfect than someone else, may be due for a dose of humility.

More to come later - Allmosthumble

[Dr T]

Thank you Allmosthumble. I look forward to your other thoughts on this. :)

[Ray]

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Truth is, very simply, as things are or were or will be, and error is, very simply, the opposite.

By that standard anything that changes is "error"...

Wrong again, buckaroo.

...And using that standard, I could easily prove you are in "error".

Go ahead and try. I dare you.

And in fact, I double dare you, with a big fat cherry on top.

[MBASS]

So i have a question to pose towards the LDS members.

A lot of the answers here seem to lend them selves toward your testimony. Your promtings and inspiration from god means a lot to you. It seems to upset a great number of members if their testimonies are questioned or mocked, and i guess i can understand that. However the one thing i can't understand is why if it's not okay to mock or make light of your testimonies, it is okay to make light of others?

An example being the idea that non-members are being fooled by satan, but it's completely impossible that the LDS are the ones being fooled. Just a personal view, but it seems like a lil bit of pride, and a great opening for satan to enter.

So why do LDS testimonies get to be a sure thing, and the non-lds testimonies get to be tossed out as satans temptations? Honestly, seem kinda against the 11th article to me and a great many of others, even a few members see this and just shake their heads at the blindness.

Thank you for this point. It shouldnt upset us to have our testimonies questioned. If we have a solid, true testimony we should be able to answer questions affirmatively. I believe that all others do have the privilege to worship how they may because I have that privilege. I am not one to tell someone their wrong, but I am one to share why I think something is right. If you choose to agree fantastic, if you disagree thats fabulous! Soulsearcher, thank you for always hitting the nail on the head. A lot of times LDS need a humility check!