How Do You Know?

[Dr T]

Thanks for your thoughts SS. If it is similar, what can be the objective basis for knowing? Is there one?

Dr. T

[shanstress70]

All wonderful points, SS!

[Jason]

Ray,

Wrong again, buckaroo.

How?

Go ahead and try. I dare you.

And in fact, I double dare you, with a big fat cherry on top.

Ok, so Mormonism has changed so many things. How about eliminating the office of Patriarch Of The Church? That's a change, and change = error.

[Ray]

So i have a question to pose towards the LDS members.

A lot of the answers here seem to lend them selves toward your testimony. Your promtings and inspiration from god means a lot to you. It seems to upset a great number of members if their testimonies are questioned or mocked, and i guess i can understand that. However the one thing i can't understand is why if it's not okay to mock or make light of your testimonies, it is okay to make light of others?

An example being the idea that non-members are being fooled by satan, but it's completely impossible that the LDS are the ones being fooled. Just a personal view, but it seems like a lil bit of pride, and a great opening for satan to enter.

So why do LDS testimonies get to be a sure thing, and the non-lds testimonies get to be tossed out as satans temptations? Honestly, seem kinda against the 11th article to me and a great many of others, even a few members see this and just shake their heads at the blindness.

I'll try to address this point from my view, and I'll hope that you will hear what I'm saying.

The message I try to give when sharing my testimony is that I have received my knowledge from God.

And if anyone asks me how I can believe what I believe I tell them that they should ask God.

And if anyone wants to disagree with me, I tell them that they should ask God.

And if anyone tells me God has spoken to them, I'll expect them to agree with what God has told me because I received my knowledge from God.

Or in other words, God won't lie, and God will agree with God, so if anyone thinks God has told them something, and what they said He said disagrees with what He told me, I tell them that they should ask God AGAIN, because God will agree with God... it's that "one" thing they speak of - God always agrees with God.

And the thing I say about Satan is that Satan can deceive and influence people to believe that he is God speaking to them... but it is NOT from God if what they receive does not agree with knowledge from God.

I hope you can understand what I'm trying to say here... if you want knowledge you should get it from God.

And btw, you can stick to your testimony and believe it was God who has told you whatever you think, but I will continue to ask God, and only God, for my knowledge... and I will not be influenced by others... no matter how much they may try to continue to tell me that I did not receive my knowledge from God.

Can you hear me?

[Jason]

Or in other words, God won't lie, and God will agree with God, so if anyone thinks God has told them something, and what they said He said disagrees with what He told me, I tell them that they should ask God AGAIN, because God will agree with God... it's that "one" thing they speak of - God always agrees with God.

Gee Ray, that's pretty foolish. What makes you so sure that you're the one who's talking to "god" and those who disagree are not? You still have not cleared that up.

And if God is talking to people, then should'nt they all agree exactly? How do you determine who really has talked to god and who has not?

[Ray]

Jason: How?

How is it wrong for truth NOT to be how things are, or were, or will be? In that it is.

Jason: Ok, so Mormonism has changed so many things. How about eliminating the office of Patriarch Of The Church? That's a change, and change = error.

How do you figure that change = error, Jason?

Was it an error to change your religious beliefs?

Oops, scratch that. I'll try to think of a better example.

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

Or in other words, God won't lie, and God will agree with God, so if anyone thinks God has told them something, and what they said He said disagrees with what He told me, I tell them that they should ask God AGAIN, because God will agree with God... it's that "one" thing they speak of - God always agrees with God.

Gee Ray, that's pretty foolish. What makes you so sure that you're the one who's talking to "god" and those who disagree are not? You still have not cleared that up.

Yes I did. I cleared it up by talking with God.

And if God is talking to people, then shouldn't they all agree exactly?

Bingo! You've got it! What they say should agree with what God says.

How do you determine who really has talked to god and who has not?

By asking God to confirm what they are telling <strike>you</strike> me, to see if they are in agreement with God.

Is this really so hard to understand???

[Ray]

I hear you loud and clear Ray, but you do not offer people the same respect.

Says you. And from what I know about what I feel and believe, I can see that you don't understand me.

...you are more than willing to point at others and say it's satan's influence.

If someone believes something that God didn't tell them, it's usually because they are influenced by Satan.

But then again some other people have a love for what is evil and don't need anyone else to influence them.

Is it really that hard to sit down and open your eyes to the fact that God works in mysterious ways you might not understand, and speaks to others in a way that is different from what you hear?

I do give people some slack for not being always able to convey their thoughts and feelings with words, but once someone makes it clear how they really feel and think, I can know if they are good or evil.

I can never and will never try to change your faith cause it works for you, but at that point you must also understand that faith is individual and honestly you are missing truths as well.

Faith is individual only in the sense that individuals have their own assurances, but an assurance from God is always in agreement with any other assurance from God.

You don't know it all...

And I never said I did. Why do people keep bringing this up? I only claim to know the things I really know, and when I don't know I say: "I don't know"

...but you sound like a you child who just learned a fact and now thinks he understands the whole universe better than the grown ups.

Heh, that may be your opinion of me... but what you think is not how I think.

And if you're through with trying to put me down now, and sharing what I know is not true, let's move on and continue to discuss other things. Or better yet, you can simply ask God.

I'll grant you you have truth from god, but to truly keep thinking you know better what's in the hearts and souls of others and their motivations is just pride or fear in my eyes, and neither will serve you on any path.

I know what is in your heart and soul and your motivations toward me, from what you have made painfully obvious. And if you think I can't understand what you are saying to me, keep thinking while asking God to help guide you.

[Jason]

Ray said: "Truth is, very simply, as things are or were or will be, and error is, very simply, the opposite."

Jason said: "By that standard anything that changes is "error"..."

Ray replied: "Wrong again, buckaroo."

I asked: "How?"

Ray replied: "How is it wrong for truth NOT to be how things are, or were, or will be? In that it is."

So is truth relative?

[Dr T]

I keep coming back to relativity in arguments above. What about absolute truth?

Thanks

[Ray]

Ray said: "Truth is, very simply, as things are or were or will be, and error is, very simply, the opposite."

Jason said: "By that standard anything that changes is "error"..."

Ray replied: "Wrong again, buckaroo."

I asked: "How?"

Ray replied: "How is it wrong for truth NOT to be how things are, or were, or will be? In that it is."

So is truth relative?

It can be. I recommend that you first come up with an idea and then ask God if that idea is true.

I keep coming back to relativity in arguments above. What about absolute truth?

Thanks

Okay. What about it?

I am absolutely certain that some things are true. Some are good. Some are evil.

What do you know that is true... that you're certain about, to a definite and absolute certainty?

[Dr T]

To answer your question Ray, I know that a two dimensional triangle has three sides. I know that a perfect circle has 360 degrees every time.

[Maureen]

Truth is, very simply, as things are or were or will be, and error is, very simply, the opposite.

Okay Ray, gives us an example of a truth that will be and then give us an example of that truth's opposite, a falsehood. Thanks!

M.

[Ray]

I know what is in your heart and soul and your motivations toward me, from what you have made painfully obvious. And if you think I can't understand what you are saying to me, keep thinking while asking God to help guide you.

And what does god tell you my motivations are? What do you think they are? That's a pretty loaded and strong statment. I look forward to your evaluation of my intent.

You were talking DOWN to me to PUT me down, Soulsearcher. You weren't trying to LIFT me up.

And don't come back with any HOGWASH saying you were doing it for my own good.

I have never intentionally said anything directly against you or anyone else on this board while I have been posting here.

I simply share the truth and how I know to know what is true... about ideas, not people in particular.

So if you or anyone else is offended by what I have said, and am saying to you right now, it is not from anything that I have said directly to you or anyone else that I speak or have spoken to.

And btw, if you lie to me, either once or again, I know how to know if it's a lie.

<div class='quotemain'>

Truth is, very simply, as things are or were or will be, and error is, very simply, the opposite.

Okay Ray, gives us an example of a truth that will be and then give us an example of that truth's opposite, a falsehood. Thanks!

M.

Jesus Christ will be coming back to reign on this Earth over everyone else who has lived here.

The opposite of that, and what would be an error, is to say it will never happen.

[Ray]

Soulsearcher: I was speaking the truth as i saw it Ray, just as you do. I was treating you as i have seen you treat others and how i feel i have been treated by you.

Ray: That is a LIE, Soulsearcher. I have NEVER talked the way you just talked to me while saying what I say to other people, so it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to feel what I feel since I have never talked to you that way.

But go ahead, believe what you want to believe, I know there is a difference in what we do.

Soulsearcher: Didn't do it for anyones good, was just speaking my mind as is my right.

Ray: Yes, it's your right to say what you think. But it's not right to talk to other people that way.

Soulsearcher: You may not think you act directly against people, but implying that all non-lds people who claim to have a faith that is on the right path are being lead astray by satan is a slap in the face.

Ray: I don't imply anything against anyone specifically. I speak for right and against what is wrong. And if anyone is offended by hearing what is wrong, it is because they don't accept what is right.

Soulsearcher: It's no different than me insulting Joseph Smith.

Ray: Okay. I can agree with that, if you were to talk like that to him.

Soulsearcher: And you have gotten snitty with a few individuals.

Ray: I may get snitty, but it's not against individuals. I get snitty when speaking against what is wrong. And as I said, if that is making you feel offended, it's because you don't accept what is right.

Soulsearcher: However i think it's worse to whitewash a group of people rather than a single idividual.

Ray: That's your opinion. Not mine. I "whitewash" ALL people who are doing what's wrong, and I don't speak against individuals specifically.

Soulsearcher: You were the first person i interacted with when i joined the site. You directly mocked my views and values.

Ray: No. I didn't. You may have thought that I did, but I didn't. And it's clear to me that you don't understand me. And between the two of us, I know me much better.

Soulsearcher: You can do a lot of things in the name of the truth, it just doesn't make them honorable.

Ray: I speak the truth and I don't offend anyone personally. If you don't think that's honorable, too bad.

Soulsearcher: I'll be honest Ray, not mean, not spiteful, but honest. I find you condesending and patronizing. I read most of your posts to people who disagree with you and i see you talking down to many people. I see no respect to others who disagree with you, and i find you acting superiour much of the time. The members in the wards i know ask why I'm reverting back to my lack of respect towards members, and when i show them your posts they laugh and fully understand why i wouldn't ever look at the church as a serious light. They laugh and say two things, the first being that he has to be a convert, and not long ago. Second is that he's so far off base that he should just be ignored. So when almost 2 full wards of people look at your truth and roll their eyes Ray, I'm sorry, but i take their position just a lil more seriously. Again, not being mean, but you are someone who wants to hear and know the truth and i will speak it once and then i will not speak it again.

Ray: So now you're telling me that people are laughing at me, and nobody is taking me seriously. Can you really not see that you're trying to put me down, and make me feel "low" as a person?

When have I ever done that to you, or anyone else? When have I spoken against anyone personally?

Show me some proof. Show me my words. And then I'll tell you what I know I really meant.

Soulsearcher: All the members who know me read your posts and tell me to get away from that kind of influence Ray. I think that should speak volumes of truth. And while i won't leave the site, i am done with you.

Ray: Fine. If this is the way you show your love to me, good riddance. I really don't need what you're giving me.

Soulsearcher: Sorry to any one i might have given offence to.

Ray: Heh, yeah right. Like I'm supposed to take that seriously?

Or should I assume you weren't talking to me? You did mean to say what you said.

(edited later to clear up the quote feature that didn't seem to be working correctly)

[Lindy]

OK...silence from me has been deafening

the tit for tat , the bite and the bait..... I could put up with a lot of it

but Ray....when you say

Sorry to any one i might have given offence to Heh, yeah right. Like I'm supposed to take that seriously?

Or should I assume you weren't talking to me ?

I think you should take it VERY seriously.... SS has held back and has been very thoughtful in his posts... sparing a lot of his innermost feelings he could have very easily used as comebacks. he has never tried to be offensive, he has always held himself in check as to what is proper to say on this board... and has conducted himself both as a board member, a non-member, and as a moderator in the standards which were set for everyone on this board. His views are different than yours YES...but that doesn't make them wrong.

And if he says he's sorry to anyone he may offended.... he MEANS it.

Ok, I'm done with my rant...

[Dr T]

Hi Lindy,

You didn't even use any exclamation marks or one of these and you call that a rant? I'm sure your husband (if you have one) doesn't know what he has in you when you guys argue.

[shanstress70]

I don't imply anything against anyone personally. I speak for right and against what is wrong. And if anyone is offended by hearing what is wrong, it is becauase they're not doing what is right.

This is exactly the kind of posts that I think SS is referring to. You do not decide what it truth for everyone. It is not your place to tell everyone what is the 'right' thing to do.

I may get snitty but it's not against individuals. I get snitty when speaking against what is wrong. And as I said, if that is making you feel offended, it's because you're doing what is wrong.

Another classic piece, which is primarily why I don't converse with you much anymore. I will not allow any mere human who doesn't even know me to tell me that what I'm doing is wrong.

I speak the truth and I don't offend anyone personally. And you don't think that's honorable, that's sad.

Guess I'm a sad case as well then. The honorable thing to do, IMO, is to respect beliefs and views of others, as long as they are hurting no one. SS doesn't seem to be the type of person who hurts others, so perhaps his beliefs deserve respect. You are no more correct than he is, except to a very small fraction of one percent of the population... and apparently even a lot of that small fraction of one percent disagree with you.

So now you're telling me that people are laughing at me, and nobody is taking me seriously. Can you really not see that you're trying to put me down, and make me feel "low" as a person?

But it's OK to offend someone if you're telling them the 'truth'... right Ray? That's what you've always said. He's not offending you personally... just telling you truth.

Perhaps it's a mistake to share my take on this, but I HATE seeing others talked down to in this way.

[boyando]

Perhaps it's a mistake to share my take on this, but I HATE seeing others talked down to in this way.

When You are right, you are right. The Gosple of Jesus Christ has never been about contention.

Group Hug everyone.

[shanstress70]

The Gosple of Jesus Christ has never been about contention.

AMEN

[Palerider]

I think everyone needs to eat some Ice Cream here and chill out....if we keep getting personal attacks...then we will lock this topic....lets play nice!!!!.....

[shanstress70]

I think everyone needs to eat some Ice Cream here and chill out....if we keep getting personal attacks...then we will lock this topic....lets play nice!!!!.....

I'll tell you what's better than ice cream... rice pudding! And yes, I know this is off-topic as well, but in a comfort food way :) . I know some LDS have lots of rice in food storage - I did and still do. This is a great way to use it, and tastes SOOO good, especially when it's still slightly warm.

(Sounds like a lot of milk to a little rice, but it comes out perfect. I even made it with 1% milk and it was still super-creamy.)

http://dessert.allrecipes.com/az/CrmistRicPdding.asp

[Lindy]

<div class='quotemain'>

I think everyone needs to eat some Ice Cream here and chill out....if we keep getting personal attacks...then we will lock this topic....lets play nice!!!!.....

I'll tell you what's better than ice cream... rice pudding! And yes, I know this is off-topic as well, but in a comfort food way :) . I know some LDS have lots of rice in food storage - I did and still do. This is a great way to use it, and tastes SOOO good, especially when it's still slightly warm.

(Sounds like a lot of milk to a little rice, but it comes out perfect. I even made it with 1% milk and it was still super-creamy.)

http://dessert.allrecipes.com/az/CrmistRicPdding.asp

MMMMM rice pudding with cinnamon!

and THAN B&J's Cherry Garcia .... in pint with spoon! :)

[Ray]

Okay, one more time, just in case anyone is still listening to me, I will tell you my thoughts on this “issue”.

When God says something to anyone, what God says is the absolute truth (for that time and place and situation)…even if other people don’t agree with what God said or don’t believe God said what God said.

I think most everyone will agree on that point… it basically concerns whether or not God tells the truth.

And now I’ll say something others will really want to fuss about… if they’re not too busy fussing already.

When God says something to me, and I say what God tells me, what I say is also the absolute truth… even if other people don’t agree with what I am telling them or don’t believe God said what God said.

And I don’t expect other people to accept what I say even when I say God said what I tell them. What I tell other people is that they should ask God to know if God will tell them what God tells me. And if God then tells them what I know God tells me then they and I and God will all agree (about whatever it is that God tells us)… even if other people don’t agree with what we tell them or don’t believe God said what God said.

Is that clear enough for everyone now? Does everyone hear what I’m saying. There is no room for discussion, as far as I’m concerned. I know what God tells me, and I’m not going to change my views concerning God and what God tells me… no matter how much other people don’t agree with us.

And from now on, if anyone says anything against me… personally …like I have never done to anyone else… ever … and never will… well… I’ll forgive them, just like I always have, and just like I always will.. and you can also ask God if that is true. :)

And btw, another option I have, aside from sharing what God tells me, is to keep silent and not say what God tells me… and I have done that a lot - even if some people don’t know it… but I’ll still continue to sometimes share what I know.

p.s. Can I have some of that rice pudding too, please?

[shanstress70]

I'm sorry Shan, i've gotto share Pale's Icecream, i've never been able to stomach rice pudding.

I will not be able to respect that opinion, SS.