How Do You Know?

[Dr T]

I'm sure this has been covered but I still have questions.

Ray, you were basically saying that you "receive God’s assurance of the truth." My question is, of those people (father and grandfather) who believed they had the truth and felt the same "assurance" from God (which you are using as verification for your beliefs) how do you "know" in a way that is separate from "feeling like it is true?"

Thank you all

[Jason]

I've tried to have this discussion before Dr. T. I theorized that the "burning bosom" feeling was some sort of emotional trigger. Which helps explain why it doesn't work for everyone (cases where the Church investigator sincerely wants to know if the BoM, etc. is true, but cannot seem to get the "proper" reply).

There is also the occult theory of a Mormon "egregore". A "spiritual influence" if you will that reinforces the "magic" of the group/association/church by giving them the warm-fuzzy feeling in their chests.

It's really hard to understand just what this feeling really is. I have repeatedly admitted that I've felt this "burning bosom" and considered it the be the LDS "holy ghost" but also found that it was unreliable. I was able over time to manipulate this feeling to give me a "positive" response to just about anything I wanted to do.

So I could pray and ask if the LDS church was true and get the burning sensation. I could also ask if Jainism was true and get the same feeling. Mormons may state that the only way to differentiate between a "yes" and a "no" burning sensation was if your mind was clear or filled with a "stupor of thoughts".

But that in and of itself is filled with problems.

Anyway, I'll leave this thread to see where it goes.

[Dr T]

Hey Jason,

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Ray]

My question is, of those people (father and grandfather) who believed they had the truth and felt the same "assurance" from God (which you are using as verification for your beliefs) how do you "know" in a way that is separate from "feeling like it is true?"

I never said "my father and grandfather... felt they had the same assurance from God which I use as verification for my beliefs." And in fact, like Jason, they do not rely on a feeling.

But as for me and my house, and all that I teach, I say we should trust God... rather than "humans' who think they are right and try to influence our decisions.

Bottom line: if you don't believe me, that is okay with me. If I were you, I wouldn't believe me either. But if you believe I should not trust God and the assurances He has given me, and will continue to give me as I seek to learn the truth from Him, then that is a position I cannot support.

"You must do what you feel is right, of course." :)

- Ben Kenobi, A New Hope

[Dr T]

Hi Ray,

I understand that you were not saying that they "had the truth." My point was that they had a core belief that their belief is valid and absolute truth. They have a conviction/belief that they are unshakable because God has revealed it to them. I see the correlation between them and yourself as you both feel as if you possess the truth and the way that your/their claims are to this truth being revealed by God. How do you know, as Jason just pointed out, that it is not some internal manipulation of emotion and self fulfilled corroboration of a desire for it to be true?

Dr. T

[Jason]

How do you know... that it is not some internal manipulation of emotion and self fulfilled corroboration of a desire for it to be true?

That my friend is the Key to Mormonism. (In my opinion of course.)

[Ray]

Hi Ray,

I understand that you were not saying that they "had the truth." My point was that they had a core belief that their belief is valid and absolute truth. They have a conviction/belief that they are unshakable because God has revealed it to them. I see the correlation between them and yourself as you both feel as if you possess the truth and the way that your/their claims are to this truth being revealed by God. How do you know, as Jason just pointed out, that it is not some internal manipulation of emotion and self fulfilled corroboration of a desire for it to be true?

Dr. T

I'll make two points here:

First, my parents, and a lot of other people I know, base their beliefs in and about God soley on how people other than God tell them to interpret the Holy Bible, which they believe to be "God's <only> word".

Or in other words, my parents don't believe God really speaks to them today as He did to other people in the past. They believe God spoke only through people who wrote what God inspired them to write in the Holy Bible, and that to know God they must translate or interpret the words in the Holy Bible according to how other people say they should translate or interpret those words... instead of how God personally directs them to translate or interpret those words through personal inspiration and revelation.

And the second point I'll make, which I've already made, is that I know when I receive inspiration from God... and nothing any "human" says can ever shake that or cause me to doubt what I received from God assuring me of what He knows to be true.

[Jason]

And the second point I'll make, which I've already made, is that I know when I receive inspiration from God... and nothing any "human" says can ever shake that or cause me to doubt what I received from God assuring me of what He knows to be true.

That doesn't answer the question Ray. You claim to know, but have not told us how. Theophany? Burning bosom? Burning bush? Shekina presence? What?

[Ray]

The way to get an assurance of the truth from God is to ask God to give you His assurance.

And then once you get it you will know that you got it, and then you will also know how. :)

And btw, just in case a description might help, even though my words can't do it justice, I feel His assurance at the depth of my spirit... not just in my physical body.

Now go ahead and toy with that if you want to, Jason. I already know it may not help you to hear it.

[Jason]

Toy with it Ray? You haven't said anything yet. Even your prophets were more descriptive than you are. At least Joseph Smith said he "saw" Jesus. Moses "saw" a burning bush. Though we may not believe them, at least they were descriptive.

The way to get an assurance of the truth from God is to ask God to give you His assurance.

This is circular reasoning. It is meaningless. That's like saying that Scientology is true because they say they are true. That has no meaning.

And then once you get it you will know that you got it, and then you will also know how. :)

That also is meaningless.

And btw, just in case a description might help ...

Yes, something useful would be nice.

...even though my words can't do it justice, I feel His assurance at the depth of my spirit... not just in my physical body.

How do you feel it? What is it you feel, and how do you know it's in the depths of your spirit?

[Ray]

How does it feel to have your wife tell you she loves you, to the point where you can feel what she's saying?

Now try to imagine that feeling magnified to the power of infinity, and you'll then have a glimpse of God's love as He conveys the truth to you with His feelings.

And btw, Jason, I told my words would not be adequate. Did you get pleasure from rubbing that in?

[Jason]

How does it feel to have your wife tell you she loves you, to the point where you can feel what she's saying?

But love is transitory. Love grows and dies. That's not a very good descriptor.

Now try to imagine that feeling magnified to the power of infinity, and you'll then have a glimpse of God's love as He conveys the truth to you with His feelings.

Ray, when I was 18, I came very close to killing myself. I got down on my knees and prayed like never before. I felt a bright burning feeling like nothing I've ever felt before.

Now, I could claim that that was God's love, telling me that I matter and that I shouldn't kill myself. Or it could be a protective mechanism inside my psyche trying to protect me from myself, creating a sensation like no other due to my possible immanent demise.

Either way, I have no idea if "god" had anything to do with it. Is that anywhere close to what you're attempting to explain? Some emotion that is unexplainable?

If so, then just say you have felt some indescribable emotion that you believe is the manifestation of your gods love for you.

At least that's something to go on. Whether it actually is "god" or not may be in dispute, but it's not circular, and it's an explanation.

And btw, Jason, I told my words would not be adequate. Did you get pleasure from rubbing that in?

It had nothing to do with "rubbing" it in Ray. It's about being precise.

[pushka]

Maybe everyone who asks 'is it right/true?' of their religion, and gets a 'yes' reply, regardless of which religion they belong to gets that feeling, because they know in their heart that they are all right. Perhaps nobody needs a specific religion or even a God to be a good person.

As long as a religion/organisation isn't killing, harming another person then it ought to be good. Surely you should listen to the negative feelings you get from an organisation to test if it is really good or not.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Christ taught that there is one path and one gate back to God, both straight and narrow. He also added that there would be few who find it.

The Spirit will teach us all things, when we are ready and able to listen.

[Jason]

Christ taught that there is one path and one gate back to God, both straight and narrow. He also added that there would be few who find it.

The Spirit will teach us all things, when we are ready and able to listen.

Another cryptic message with no meaning?

AK, I expect better from you bro.

For instance, what will they "hear"? How will you know it's from "god"?

[boyando]

<div class='quotemain'>

And the second point I'll make, which I've already made, is that I know when I receive inspiration from God... and nothing any "human" says can ever shake that or cause me to doubt what I received from God assuring me of what He knows to be true.

That doesn't answer the question Ray. You claim to know, but have not told us how. Theophany? Burning bosom? Burning bush? Shekina presence? What?

Jason:

We all see what we want to see and we feel what we wan't to feel. So how is it that people like me and Ray, know that what we are feeling is the truth. I can't explain it, nor do I think it would make any difference in your life. So why would I or Ray or anyone bear there soul to you so that you can tell us what we should think, feel or know.

Humility can mean putting yourself in a teachable position, so I try to learn from you, everytime you post. There are times when it is very hard to get gems of value from what you say. For right now, all I can say is I hope you "feel" like you are doing good and when you look in the mirror, I hope that you "see what you wan't to see". I know you will -Allmosthumble

[Jason]

We all see what we want to see and we feel what we wan't to feel.

I disagree. Anyone who is willing to discard their feelings and beliefs when presented with data that clearly refutes it, is a seeker of truth. All others are impostors.

So how is it that people like me and Ray, know that what we are feeling is the truth. I can't explain it, nor do I think it would make any difference in your life. So why would I or Ray or anyone bear there soul to you so that you can tell us what we should think, feel or know.

Im not telling you what you should think, feel or know. But if you can't explain yourself, why the heck do you think, feel or believe you know?

Humility can mean putting yourself in a teachable position...

Honestly, I believe that's just an excuse to justify a belief without evidence to support it.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

I don't like to disappoint, Jason, so I'll elaborate.

In describing the Spirit's assurance of truths, I could use figurative language such as a "burning bosom," or I might describe the presence of emotions like peace, comfort, or joy. But none of that really describes the effect of the still, small voice searing truth into our hearts and minds. I know what I know because God told me, is really what it boils down to. No offense Ray, but I'm starting to sound like you!

I know that's terribly disappointing in terms of furnishing evidence in a scientific sense, and puts a damper of further dialogue, but it's really all I can say. Concerning beliefs and doctrines peculiar to the LDS Church, they're true.

I just know. :) Can't break it down any simpler than that, sorry Dr. T.

[miztrniceguy]

I don't like to disappoint, Jason, so I'll elaborate.

In describing the Spirit's assurance of truths, I could use figurative language such as a "burning bosom," or I might describe the presence of emotions like peace, comfort, or joy. But none of that really describes the effect of the still, small voice searing truth into our hearts and minds. I know what I know because God told me, is really what it boils down to. No offense Ray, but I'm starting to sound like you!

I know that's terribly disappointing in terms of furnishing evidence in a scientific sense, and puts a damper of further dialogue, but it's really all I can say. Concerning beliefs and doctrines peculiar to the LDS Church, they're true.

I just know. :) Can't break it down any simpler than that, sorry Dr. T.

well said, and i agree.......some things cannot adequetly be described.

[Jason]

That's terrible guys. Surely you can attempt to do better than that?

[Ray]

Ray, when I was 18, I came very close to killing myself. I got down on my knees and prayed like never before. I felt a bright burning feeling like nothing I've ever felt before.

Now, I could claim that that was God's love, telling me that I matter and that I shouldn't kill myself. Or it could be a protective mechanism inside my psyche trying to protect me from myself, creating a sensation like no other due to my possible immanent demise.

Either way, I have no idea if "god" had anything to do with it. Is that anywhere close to what you're attempting to explain? Some emotion that is unexplainable?

If so, then just say you have felt some indescribable emotion that you believe is the manifestation of your gods love for you.

At least that's something to go on. Whether it actually is "god" or not may be in dispute, but it's not circular, and it's an explanation.

Jason,

I have already tried to convey some of the thoughts you just described while using the words I used, and perhaps you didn't hear because, simply, or to put it simply, I didn't use the words you used.

And personally I wouldn't choose to say that feeling or emotion is "unexplainable" or "undescribable" to anyone, because I can explain it, and I can describe it, and I can also tell Who it comes from... I just can't "adequately" convey what it feels like to me while explaining or describing that feeling from God to you.

Now go bug someone else because they can't "adequately" convey to you how it feels to feel God's love and God's assurance. I personally feel it really rather silly to expect anyone but God to convey God's feelings to you.

[Jason]

I still think that these are just excuses. These "I can't explain it to you" comments are really just a diversion because if they put it in words that we actually understand, then we may retort with a comment that those feelings are felt by all and are not "from god".

Or even worse, that those are the same feeligs felt by other Theists from different religions, which means that you are not unique, and you're not right.

[boyando]

That's terrible guys. Surely you can attempt to do better than that?

Jason;

You once said that if there was no house of Israel and no religion of Islam, there would be peace in the middle east (not your exact words, I know). What scientific proof do you offer?

[Jason]

<div class='quotemain'>

That's terrible guys. Surely you can attempt to do better than that?

Jason;

You once said that if there was no house of Israel and no religion of Islam, there would be peace in the middle east (not your exact words, I know). What scientific proof do you offer?

You do know why they're at war, right?

Do you think that if somehow they realized their religions are not based on reality, they would still kill each other? Sure, they may scuffle occasionally like a couple of Trekkies disputing with Potterites as to which is the better entertainment, but would they buy black market arms and start killing each other?

Do I need to answer that?

[Guest ApostleKnight]

...would they buy black market arms and start killing each other?

The mid-east scene is about real estate, not doctrine.