How Do You Know?

[Jason]

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...would they buy black market arms and start killing each other?

The mid-east scene is about real estate, not doctrine.

The doctrine and the real estate are intertwined. You know, the whole "holy land" crap.

[miztrniceguy]

I still think that these are just excuses. These "I can't explain it to you" comments are really just a diversion because if they put it in words that we actually understand, then we may retort with a comment that those feelings are felt by all and are not "from god".

Or even worse, that those are the same feeligs felt by other Theists from different religions, which means that you are not unique, and you're not right.

i think you're in denial, and using everything you can to justify being there

[Jason]

<div class='quotemain'>

I still think that these are just excuses. These "I can't explain it to you" comments are really just a diversion because if they put it in words that we actually understand, then we may retort with a comment that those feelings are felt by all and are not "from god".

Or even worse, that those are the same feeligs felt by other Theists from different religions, which means that you are not unique, and you're not right.

i think you're in denial, and using everything you can to justify being there

Who's in denial? Me? Im not denying anything. Im saying I felt it, and I don't believe it.

[mdb]

Maybe everyone who asks 'is it right/true?' of their religion, and gets a 'yes' reply, regardless of which religion they belong to gets that feeling, because they know in their heart that they are all right. Perhaps nobody needs a specific religion or even a God to be a good person.

The fool has said in his heart,“There is no God.”

They are corrupt,

They have done abominable works,

There is none who does good.

The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men,

To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.

They have all turned aside,

They have together become corrupt;

There is none who does good,

No, not one.

(Ps 14:1-3 also: Ps 53:1-3)

So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.

(Mk 10:18)

Not all religions lead to eternal life. Jesus is the only way. If you do not believe on Him and repent of your sins, you do not have life. Read Jn 20:28,29 and see what it is that Thomas believed.

[Jason]

<div class='quotemain'>

Maybe everyone who asks 'is it right/true?' of their religion, and gets a 'yes' reply, regardless of which religion they belong to gets that feeling, because they know in their heart that they are all right. Perhaps nobody needs a specific religion or even a God to be a good person.

The fool has said in his heart,“There is no God.”

They are corrupt,

They have done abominable works,

There is none who does good.

The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men,

To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.

They have all turned aside,

They have together become corrupt;

There is none who does good,

No, not one.

(Ps 14:1-3 also: Ps 53:1-3)

So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.

(Mk 10:18)

Not all religions lead to eternal life. Jesus is the only way. If you do not believe on Him and repent of your sins, you do not have life. Read Jn 20:28,29 and see what it is that Thomas believed.

"A witty saying (or in this case the Bible) proves nothing." -Voltaire

[boyando]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

That's terrible guys. Surely you can attempt to do better than that?

Jason;

You once said that if there was no house of Israel and no religion of Islam, there would be peace in the middle east (not your exact words, I know). What scientific proof do you offer?

You do know why they're at war, right?

Do you think that if somehow they realized their religions are not based on reality, they would still kill each other? Sure, they may scuffle occasionally like a couple of Trekkies disputing with Potterites as to which is the better entertainment, but would they buy black market arms and start killing each other?

Do I need to answer that?

You don't have to answer. You make it very clear that you believe that without organized religion, the world would be a better place. I am again offering you the opportunity to show me study's, data or what ever you would like, to state your case.

[sgallan]

The fool has said in his heart,“There is no God.”

They are corrupt,

They have done abominable works,

There is none who does good.

The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men,

To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.

They have all turned aside,

They have together become corrupt;

There is none who does good,

No, not one.

Always nice to know what some thiests really think about people like me. I suppose I should stop teaching, being a good single dad, and volunteering with kids, and instead get busy raping, pillaging, and partying. My bad. So much of that to do, and so little time.....

[pushka]

Jason and Sgallan, thanks for posting such supportive, of me, replies to the post mdb made concerning the comments I made.

I still uphold my opinion that you can be a good person without the need to worship any God.

[sgallan]

Given that I try to remember that in general somebody being a Christian is a good thing (it has been a bit difficult to remember that)..... you are way more of what I consider a Christian than some of what I've seen on a couple of threads of late. It's a that others are sabotaging your efforts at showing the good values of Christianity.

[pushka]

Thanks Sgallan, from what I've read of your life up to now, you appear to be more 'christian' minded than many too :)

[EricM]

Personally, my answer as to how I know is not any different than what everyone else has described. When I feel I'm truly feeling God's love for me, I feel a peace of mind, comfort, and happiness, all of which are to a higher degree than I would achieve in any other situation. Such feelings are also accompanied by that special feeling that has been described as the spirit. However, I don't believe feeling the spirit is limited to these situations. It can be felt it many different ways, and usually as a result of some positive action on one's part. When it comes right down to it, you just know. This is how I know. This is how countless others know. But it is indeed possible to question. I'm sure science can (or will be able to) explain exactly how the body makes one feel they way they do in these situations. But it doesn't really matter how it happens. What matters is what makes it happen in the first place. I guess I'll explain it with a rather over-used comparison.

Explaining how you know God exists is much like explaining what salt tastes like. You know you know what salt tastes like, but if someone were to ask you what it tastes like, the best you'd be able to come up with is "like salt." This won't get you anywhere. That person is just going to have to believe that you know what it tastes like. You can't prove it. But you do indeed know what it tastes like.

Now I'm going to take this a step further. Say perhaps a person wants to disprove the signficance salt. They go to the trouble of analyzing how the brain detects the taste of this so-called salt, and perfectly maps out how the process happens. They even find ways to emulate the taste of salt, thus proving that salt is insignificant, and thus a farce. But in the end this proves nothing. To you, salt still tastes like salt. You try the imitations, and agree that they taste like salt as well. But they aren't salt, and you know it.

The same goes for God. I can feel his presence. I know he exists. But God is not one to be proven or disproven, he's one to be witnessed. And once you witness him, you have to have faith that it is God you're witnessing. It's that simple.

And if this doesn't answer your question, Jason, then I really don't know what you're looking for. If this is the case, then I get the feeling there is no answer that will satisfy you, to be honest.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

EricM, welcome to the board. I enjoyed your extended analogy and think you cut to the heart of the matter. Well done.

[boyando]

EricM; Welcome and thanks for your comments.

Hey and it's nice to see some one from Utah.

[Dr T]

Hello all,

Thank you for your thoughts EricM. The analogy of salt is an interesting one. My question is not to put you on the spot or make you doubt but asked so that I can understand how you differentiate between your beliefs in "the true god" over someone else's "true god." If a person from another religious group says the same things, "I know I worship/follow the true god because I feel it/know it" how is that confirmation different from yours?

Thank you,

Dr. T

[EricM]

Dr.T,

In all honesty, I believe truth manifests itself no matter what religion you are. Truth is truth regardless of what religion you are. So basically I don't believe you have to be LDS to believe in the one true God. However, it's the amount of truth offered in the religion that makes me stick around. But even if I left the religion, I'd still pray to the same God I've always prayed to. Hope that helps.

[Ray]

I’d now like to add a thought, related to this topic, that I’ve been thinking about lately.

Most of us “humans” try very hard to share our thoughts and feelings with others, but what if someday we could share all of those things without saying or writing a word… without any physical contact… from wherever we are in the universe… with multiple people at once???

A lot of us seem to want to do that while moving around talking on cell phones, and we can now make conference calls, but what if someday we could all call on everyone without any devices at all… without saying or writing a word… without any physical contact… from wherever we are in the universe?

Science fiction, you may be thinking? There is no way that can possibly happen?

Well what would you say if God could now show you that He can already do that???

And btw, when He calls some of us, even continuing to call us, He only gets a busy signal.

Can you hear Him now? :)

[Dr T]

And btw, when He calls some of us, even continuing to call us, He only gets a busy signal.

Hi Ray. I liked that quote. :)

[Ray]

I won't ask why, because to me it is sad.

Can you hear Him calling YOU now?

Or do you believe God doesn't call anymore???

[Dr T]

Hi Ray,

Yes; it is sad. I was just giving you a compliment on your word choice. ("Call" and "Busy signal") :)

Dr. T

[Ray]

Thank you, Doc. I can appreciate those sentiments, especially coming from you. :)

And btw, it was the idea of other people talking on cell phones which caught my attention just recently, having seen some of them talking to others on cell phones with the phone being almost invisible... women with long hair covering the earphones and no way for me to tell where the mic was, just chatting away to invisible people while going about their business. :)

[Jason]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

That's terrible guys. Surely you can attempt to do better than that?

Jason;

You once said that if there was no house of Israel and no religion of Islam, there would be peace in the middle east (not your exact words, I know). What scientific proof do you offer?

You do know why they're at war, right?

Do you think that if somehow they realized their religions are not based on reality, they would still kill each other? Sure, they may scuffle occasionally like a couple of Trekkies disputing with Potterites as to which is the better entertainment, but would they buy black market arms and start killing each other?

Do I need to answer that?

You don't have to answer. You make it very clear that you believe that without organized religion, the world would be a better place. I am again offering you the opportunity to show me study's, data or what ever you would like, to state your case.

You can build your strawman argument all day long, but there are no studies available because these fools refuse to accept that their religions are the invention of men.

And you still haven't answered the hypothetical question I asked, namely, do you think that if somehow they realized their religions were false, they would still kill each other?

[boyando]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

That's terrible guys. Surely you can attempt to do better than that?

Jason;

You once said that if there was no house of Israel and no religion of Islam, there would be peace in the middle east (not your exact words, I know). What scientific proof do you offer?

You do know why they're at war, right?

Do you think that if somehow they realized their religions are not based on reality, they would still kill each other? Sure, they may scuffle occasionally like a couple of Trekkies disputing with Potterites as to which is the better entertainment, but would they buy black market arms and start killing each other?

Do I need to answer that?

You don't have to answer. You make it very clear that you believe that without organized religion, the world would be a better place. I am again offering you the opportunity to show me study's, data or what ever you would like, to state your case.

You can build your strawman argument all day long, but there are no studies available because these fools refuse to accept that their religions are the invention of men.

And you still haven't answered the hypothetical question I asked, namely, do you think that if somehow they realized their religions were false, they would still kill each other?

I can't say, because there has never been a time or place on planet earth, without religion. There are many types of religion and you seem to think that the only bad religion is the one's that require faith and morales. I know, I know, you have morales.

How about the religion of greed? What would be the chances of war breaking out in an area with a lot of oil? I guess they would just be all love and flowers. But then again, we will never know because everyone has a religion.

Jason, I love you man, but for someone who has done so much studying, I thought you would come up with more than a "strawman" defense.

Feel free to tear me apart, although I'm not thin enough to be called a strawman. Your Friend - Allmosthumble

[Ray]

Hey Jason,

As a side note, how do you know that YOUR religion is true, or that what you are saying about our (LDS) religion is or was not inspired by Satan who may have managed to convince you or inspire you to believe that our (LDS) religion is false?

And btw, while you're answering that question, please prove that what you are saying is true.

Thank you. I know we'll all enjoy hearing from you. You're such a knowledgable guy. :)

[Dr T]

Good question Ray. You are saying that the LDS church is true because it has been revealed to you by God. Jason is also saying that it has been revealed to him that it is false. What is the deciding factor. Maybe Jason can explain all the issues that lead to the conclusion that it is not true.

Thanks

[Ray]

Hi Doc,

I can answer that question. There's a simple rule we can follow, though not simple to put in words, about how we gain our knowledge of good and evil.

God tells us what is GOOD, or reveals what is RIGHT, and by Him we can know we see the LIGHT...

while

Satan tells us what is EVIL, or reveals what is WRONG, and by him we can know we see the DARKNESS.

Or in other words, we can all learn from God as well as from Satan, but from Satan we only learn what is wrong, so if we also want to know what is right and what is good, we will know when we know we have seen the LIGHT.

I hope that helps. :)

And btw, I prefer to learn from people who try to tell me what is RIGHT, rather than from people who try to tell me what is WRONG, and the only ones I know who try to help me choose the RIGHT, are the ones who try to help me see the LIGHT. :)

p.s. And yes, I'm using the word LIGHT to refer to our Savior... our true Savior... not a distorted view some people have of Him. :)