Why did Satan rebel? Why won't God forgive him?

[Seminarysnoozer]

A one third part of the most advanced and inteligent society to ever exist chose to follow Satan. I think it is a error to think friendship and loyalty had nothing to do with those that followed him.

I cannot comprehend that G-d would allow anyone to make such a critical choice without fully understanding what it is they are choosing. No one was fooled - no one did what they did because they did not know what they were doing. I do not believe G-d was experimenting to see if they really would rebel or how far they would go.

There must be an intelligent answer - one that makes sense. There has to be a "point" of no return. As I have already said - it seems clear to me. Satan has no mercy - for him there is no forgiveness. For all other things there seems to be a way back. A murderer can feel sorry; can come to understand the value of life with the lost of someone loved - but a lack of forgiveness cannot coexist with a kind thought or act of mercy. It is the ultimate act of selfishness. It is the beginning of all excuses - it is the reason and engine of revenge.

But I am convinced that there are - deep within us all the urge for revenge to insure that justice is meted out to all deserving - that the deserving suffer and the deserving wicked burn - the doers of evil be cast off. Dare I say it? Some so delight in serving justice and feigning mercy that they actually believe G-d will cast souls into everlasting hell - to suffer forever and ever - to suffer for all eternity. It is my understanding that G-d is the opposite - that G-d’s mercy is to prevent endless suffering - that those who suffer do so because they prefer suffering and insuring other suffer rather than look to G-d’s mercy and live.

I thin just the opposite of you - I believe our true nature is in reality the only real choice me make. That is my understanding of agency - that we do choose our true nature. All other things follow that choice.

The Traveler

I believe they followed his idea because they had selfish plans of their own to begin with. I don't think they followed him because he was charismatic or because they were tricked into believing one way or another.

In this life our true nature is obscured by the veil and by the circumstances we are given here, such as genetics, our brains wiring, the state of the world etc. Otherwise, you would have to explain that someone with trisomy 21 is revealing their true nature, which we know not to be true.

We wont know everything pertaining to our choices until the journey is complete. When we meet a fork in the road we don't always know where it goes without having been their before. I think we all met that fork in the road to either keep our first estate or not. That choice was not based in experience. Satan's choice was not based in experience, it was based in his true nature in that he chose the path that did not require giving of himself.

[Traveler]

I believe they followed his idea because they had selfish plans of their own to begin with. I don't think they followed him because he was charismatic or because they were tricked into believing one way or another.

In this life our true nature is obscured by the veil and by the circumstances we are given here, such as genetics, our brains wiring, the state of the world etc. Otherwise, you would have to explain that someone with trisomy 21 is revealing their true nature, which we know not to be true.

We wont know everything pertaining to our choices until the journey is complete. When we meet a fork in the road we don't always know where it goes without having been their before. I think we all met that fork in the road to either keep our first estate or not. That choice was not based in experience. Satan's choice was not based in experience, it was based in his true nature in that he chose the path that did not require giving of himself.

Thank you for your response. I find your thoughts interesting but not things I have not previously considered. There are several things about the fall of Lucifer and a one third part of heaven that should be obvious. As I said previously; Satan and those with him did so with a great deal more understanding and pure knowledge than what any of us currently enjoy. Their reason had to make sense.

From what we know - why would people that know better do something that is obvious to their detriment? Simply because they were selfish? If that truly was the reason why choose War against G-d and be damned? Because they really did not fully understand the result? What kind of G-d and Father would allow their unconditional and irreversible “FALL” under such conditions? Remember - we are talking about the most intelligent, brilliant and wise society to ever exist or that is possible to exist and that their choice was in the full light of intelligence and truth.

Why would they throw away eternal life? The answer I submit for consideration is the simplest of all answers - because they saw it, understood it and flat out did not want it. They realized there was something else that was more appealing to them and they were willing without deception or misunderstanding to sacrifice eternal life (among other things) to achieve it. That is their true selfishness and the enviable result of anyone that seeks what is “best” for them. Or should I say - Friends that suit them? Or a Religion that suits them or fulfills them? Or whatever it is that they desire or "will" most for themselves? Think about it.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Thank you for your response. I find your thoughts interesting but not things I have not previously considered. There are several things about the fall of Lucifer and a one third part of heaven that should be obvious. As I said previously; Satan and those with him did so with a great deal more understanding and pure knowledge than what any of us currently enjoy. Their reason had to make sense.

From what we know - why would people that know better do something that is obvious to their detriment? Simply because they were selfish? If that truly was the reason why choose War against G-d and be damned? Because they really did not fully understand the result? What kind of G-d and Father would allow their unconditional and irreversible “FALL” under such conditions? Remember - we are talking about the most intelligent, brilliant and wise society to ever exist or that is possible to exist and that their choice was in the full light of intelligence and truth.

Why would they throw away eternal life? The answer I submit for consideration is the simplest of all answers - because they saw it, understood it and flat out did not want it. They realized there was something else that was more appealing to them and they were willing without deception or misunderstanding to sacrifice eternal life (among other things) to achieve it. That is their true selfishness and the enviable result of anyone that seeks what is “best” for them. Or should I say - Friends that suit them? Or a Religion that suits them or fulfills them? Or whatever it is that they desire or "will" most for themselves? Think about it.

The Traveler

If the plan they were presented is one of only being successful if one can submit themselves 100% and forget themselves in the process then I would see why they would opt out. They would in fact try to find another way around it. With the fullness of the gospel, I think it is evident that one of the core characteristics of a celestial being is that of being charitable, caring about the well being of others and finding joy in that process. If one shows that they have the opposite view, that they really only care about their own success and not grasping the concept of shared glory and shared inheritance then they would rebel against it.

I think, with the maturity reached in the pre-mortal life, there came a point where they finally realized that they would have to change their whole persona to be successful in God's plan. Just as Jesus is the example of self sacrifice on that end of the spectrum, Satan was the opposite, he was self centered and only cares about his own success. That is the point in which a person rebels. Like the teenager who doesn't want to live by the house rules even though the parents are willing to give everything for the childs success, they may eventually say to themselves, if it is a choice of living under the house rules or being on my own, then I choose being on my own, they are cast out of the house. One of the house rules is to keep one's first estate, to agree to a plan that suggests it is best to not be selfish.

[Suzie]

Satan doesn't have a body. Is it necessary to have a body in order to repent? Does the Atonement of Jesus Christ then applies to him?

[Suzie]

Traveler:

I see Lucifer (Satan) as a very brilliant, highly intellectual and beautiful person full of charisma. I believe him to be an enjoyable fun individual that engenders great loyalty and even love among his friends.

What's your definition of very brilliant, highly intellectual and most of all "beautiful" person?

He loves his friends but dislikes his enemies and does not forgive them

So you're saying Satan is capable of loving. If so, who are these friends and how does he show his love for them? (in your opinion).

[RipplecutBuddha]

Satan doesn't have a body. Is it necessary to have a body in order to repent? Does the Atonement of Jesus Christ then applies to him?

That is quite an interesting question....say hello to my new personal study topic...

[Guest mysticmorini]

Satan doesn't have a body. Is it necessary to have a body in order to repent?

I'd say that it isnt because we know we can repent in the spirit world without a body.

[Suzie]

The problem with Satan (if we believe in the Revelation book) is that his fate is pretty much written. He won't repent.

[Gwen]

My husband came home after a stake priesthood meeting talking about how the atonement applied to all ppl across all time so that meant the pre existance as well. I wasn't there I can't give you references for anything to that. It did spark an interesting discussion.

He was saying there were some that chose to follow satan and then came back before it was to late and the atonement covered those sins.

Off hand I have a hard time with that. I don't believe there was sin in the pre existance. That is one of the major points of this life is to learn opposites, good and evil, etc. If there was sin before then we didn't need to come here to learn that. We were in an ideal state. I do believe there was agency and thus could be transgressions, but that's not the same as sin and while there are consequences there is no need for "repentance" (therefore no need for an atoning). The atonement was part of the plan for this life.

but that is just a quick summery of our little debate on that issue. lol

[bytor2112]

I think a body is necessary for repentance in many circumstances. While the Savior knows our hearts, often in this life evidence of repentance is physically abstaining from a sin.

[Traveler]

If the plan they were presented is one of only being successful if one can submit themselves 100% and forget themselves in the process then I would see why they would opt out. They would in fact try to find another way around it. With the fullness of the gospel, I think it is evident that one of the core characteristics of a celestial being is that of being charitable, caring about the well being of others and finding joy in that process. If one shows that they have the opposite view, that they really only care about their own success and not grasping the concept of shared glory and shared inheritance then they would rebel against it.

I think, with the maturity reached in the pre-mortal life, there came a point where they finally realized that they would have to change their whole persona to be successful in God's plan. Just as Jesus is the example of self sacrifice on that end of the spectrum, Satan was the opposite, he was self centered and only cares about his own success. That is the point in which a person rebels. Like the teenager who doesn't want to live by the house rules even though the parents are willing to give everything for the childs success, they may eventually say to themselves, if it is a choice of living under the house rules or being on my own, then I choose being on my own, they are cast out of the house. One of the house rules is to keep one's first estate, to agree to a plan that suggests it is best to not be selfish.

I believe it is possible that a saint live all the commandments, live a “righteous” life and prepare in every way to live blissfully with G-d in heaven - but come the final judgment when G-d shows them the Celestial Kingdom that they then gaze upon it with full understanding and realize that is not what they had “strived” for - being in service of others? Why they thought that others would finely be in service and administer to them - They thought they would be a “Respected, loved, obeyed and revered G-d” - not a menial ever continuing “subservient” giving unconditionally and endlessly to others, servant for eternity. I believe a loving Father has already considered this and has prepared a place that best suits them and their desire.

The Traveler

[Vort]

Off hand I have a hard time with that. I don't believe there was sin in the pre existance. That is one of the major points of this life is to learn opposites, good and evil, etc. If there was sin before then we didn't need to come here to learn that.

D&C 93:38

Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God.

If men started out innocent in the beginning, and then needed to become again, in their infant state, innocent before God, the obvious implication is that they were not innocent before being in their infant state. Ergo, they must have sinned in premortality. Remember the question Jesus' apostles put to him of the man born blind: "Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?" (John 9:2) Clearly, they believed premortal sin was possible, even punishable.

Remember that the third part of heaven rebelled and fell. Sin is spiritual death, which by very definition is separation from God. If Satan and his "angels" cannot be considered to have sinned, the word has no meaning.

We were in an ideal state. I do believe there was agency and thus could be transgressions, but that's not the same as sin

1 John 3:4

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

and while there are consequences there is no need for "repentance" (therefore no need for an atoning). The atonement was part of the plan for this life.

I think the above scriptures indicate that the atonement is needed for premortal actions, as well.

[Traveler]

Traveler:

What's your definition of very brilliant, highly intellectual and most of all "beautiful" person?

So you're saying Satan is capable of loving. If so, who are these friends and how does he show his love for them? (in your opinion).

Yes - I am saying that Satan can be very kind and loving to those that return the favor and are kind and loving back to him. I believe Satan to be the very example of a Hollywood hero. He is very loving and kind to those that deserve it and will be very violent and mean but only to those that deserve it. He is the “punisher”, the avenger and in essence the “Bat Man” that every “evil doer” must fear or else. He delights in sending those that “deserve it” straight to hell! He has no mercy for the sinner or those that turn against him and his friends.

The Traveler

[Vort]

I'm inclined to think his "plan" was a pretext for usurping God's power, which would bear out Isaiah's analysis.

I'd say this is almost trivially obvious.

Did Satan really have a "plan" to save everyone? Clearly not. If such a "plan" were possible, God would implement it. Satan's one and only plan, then, now, and forever, is to destroy the agency of man and thus usurp God's honor or power (apparently, these are synonyms). This is all Satan has ever sought, or will ever seek.

But then, why the claim that he would save all mankind, "that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it"? Here we come upon one of the "deep doctrines" of the LDS Church, something many people have great difficulty comprehending:

Satan lied.

But how can this be, if Satan could not actually act as the Savior in "his plan"? Isn't that what we're taught from Primary age: There were two competing plans, and we had to choose between them, and we chose Jesus' plan? Here we find yet another disturbing fact:

Sometimes, what we are taught in Primary isn't the whole story, and in some cases isn't even correct.

There were not "two plans". There was one plan, the plan of salvation. That's it. The Father needed a Savior for his plan of salvation. The First volunteered (or so it is presented in the record). Another also volunteered, but with amendatory conditions. The Father selected, or called, the First. The other rebelled and, with his followers, was cast out.

We would do well to teach our children and converts these basic facts, rather than dress them up as a made-for-television movie. But in any case, that's what the scriptures teach.

[Traveler]

....

I think the above scriptures indicate that the atonement is needed for premortal actions, as well.

I believe this to be one of the more interesting and important concepts concerning the “infinite” atonement.

I have speculated (the operative word here is speculated) that the fall of Adam was symbolic of the fall of all man - with the exception of Jesus. And that when man fell all were ex-comminuted from the society of heaven. When that occurred there was a “New Heaven” appointed and Jesus was made the “only” G-d for fallen man thus making Jesus the only G-d. Satan also had access to this fallen heaven as we see recorded in Job. This is a condition of great sacrifice for Jesus and is in essence part of his mercy and atonement. Perhaps you and I may discuss this at another time. You seem to me to have good and interesting opinions.

The Traveler

[Guest gopecon]

"Yes - I am saying that Satan can be very kind and loving to those that return the favor and are kind and loving back to him. I believe Satan to be the very example of a Hollywood hero. He is very loving and kind to those that deserve it and will be very violent and mean but only to those that deserve it. He is the “punisher”, the avenger and in essence the “Bat Man” that every “evil doer” must fear or else. He delights in sending those that “deserve it” straight to hell! He has no mercy for the sinner or those that turn against him and his friends." Traveler

There's a problem with this analysis - anyone who follows Satan (by random sin or active discipleship) is damned, unless they repent with faith in the Savior. Satan encourages us to sin - he's not just screaming for justice when we happen to fall short, he's the father of lies who "wants all men to be miserable like unto himself". The Hollywood heroes you compare him to may be flawed, but they are generally on the side of truth, justice, and the American way. He probably was charismatic, but I would compare him to an example from the 1930's - Hitler. Charismatic, pridfeful, controlling, murderous, and eventually defeated.

[RipplecutBuddha]

I'd say this is almost trivially obvious.

Did Satan really have a "plan" to save everyone? Clearly not. If such a "plan" were possible, God would implement it. Satan's one and only plan, then, now, and forever, is to destroy the agency of man and thus usurp God's honor or power (apparently, these are synonyms). This is all Satan has ever sought, or will ever seek.

But then, why the claim that he would save all mankind, "that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it"? Here we come upon one of the "deep doctrines" of the LDS Church, something many people have great difficulty comprehending:

Satan lied.

But how can this be, if Satan could not actually act as the Savior in "his plan"? Isn't that what we're taught from Primary age: There were two competing plans, and we had to choose between them, and we chose Jesus' plan? Here we find yet another disturbing fact:

Sometimes, what we are taught in Primary isn't the whole story, and in some cases isn't even correct.

There were not "two plans". There was one plan, the plan of salvation. That's it. The Father needed a Savior for his plan of salvation. The First volunteered (or so it is presented in the record). Another also volunteered, but with amendatory conditions. The Father selected, or called, the First. The other rebelled and, with his followers, was cast out.

We would do well to teach our children and converts these basic facts, rather than dress them up as a made-for-television movie. But in any case, that's what the scriptures teach.

I think it's also important to discuss why Satan's idea was wrong from the start as well.

Essentially, Satan was attempting to hit the biggest lottery of all, so to speak. He wanted to have everything for nothing at all. He volunteered to be the Savior, but he rejected what a savior needs to do.

Here's his viewpoint; All of God's children need to gain a body, the Plan of Salvation is how we get that, and then have the chance to return to God's presence, but why just leave it at a chance? If God would allow the removal of our agency upon birth, then none would be lost.

"And surely I will do it, wherefore give me thine honor." Satan wanted to be the savior of a sinless family. What's in it for him? As the savior of a sinless family, he doesn't need to atone for anything. No suffering, no misery....and he gets God's glory in the end anyway....for not doing a thing.

_______

The real problem with Satan's plan, besides his selfishness, is that we need our agency to learn most of what we came here to learn. Without it, much of this life would have been for nothing. Think about it. All of us had to learn at least one or two very important eternal truths by making the wrong decision.

Our agency is a key part of the Plan of Salvation, and while Satan's modifications to the plan made it sound very attractive, the original plan was the best way to go. How do I know? Because God used it. If there were a better plan, do you really think he would have ignored it?

[Seminarysnoozer]

I believe it is possible that a saint live all the commandments, live a “righteous” life and prepare in every way to live blissfully with G-d in heaven - but come the final judgment when G-d shows them the Celestial Kingdom that they then gaze upon it with full understanding and realize that is not what they had “strived” for - being in service of others? Why they thought that others would finely be in service and administer to them - They thought they would be a “Respected, loved, obeyed and revered G-d” - not a menial ever continuing “subservient” giving unconditionally and endlessly to others, servant for eternity. I believe a loving Father has already considered this and has prepared a place that best suits them and their desire.

The Traveler

I don't think anyone who does not grasp or have basic charity will even have a chance to "gaze upon" the Celestial Kingdom.

I don't think I disagree with everything else you are saying here. The judgement, though, is not a black and white think, it is not all or nothing. I think the two ends of the spectrum can be described as one end being charitable and the other selfish. Of course, there are combinations and percentages in between. This is why the "why we do it" is so important.

I think that applies to Satan's choices too, why did he do it? For the opposite reason Christ volunteered, because Satan was selfish.

True obedience requires being 'as a child', submissive. Otherwise, it isn't really obedience.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Yes - I am saying that Satan can be very kind and loving to those that return the favor and are kind and loving back to him. I believe Satan to be the very example of a Hollywood hero. He is very loving and kind to those that deserve it and will be very violent and mean but only to those that deserve it. He is the “punisher”, the avenger and in essence the “Bat Man” that every “evil doer” must fear or else. He delights in sending those that “deserve it” straight to hell! He has no mercy for the sinner or those that turn against him and his friends.

The Traveler

Satan has no real perception of "deserving" anything. To do that he would have to understand righteousness. Why is it in the scriptures it says that when a person is evil their right eye is obscured? Because they cannot perceive the light anymore, they eventually do not understand righteousness. To be a judge, one would have to understand what is righteousness. I do not think Satan has that ability and never will. He cannot decide anything about who deserves what.

[Justice]

I think it's logical to assume that if Satan didn't have a plan then he wouldn't have won so many followers in the spirit world. I'd say, not only was it a plan, but it seemed to many like it would work. It had to have ALL the properties of Father's plan. Maybe they were ordered different?

I consider why Satan tempted Eve to eat the forbidden fruit to begin with, because the best way to destroy God's plan was to not tempt Eve at all. To not introduce opposition would have left them stagnate in the Garden of Eden.

This leads me to think that Satan required Eve to eat the fruit as well in order to bring about his plan. Satan had to know God's plan, he was there when it was presented. He had to know eating the forbidden fruit, or gaining the knowledge of good and evil, was part of Father's plan.

Alma 12 and 42 discuss what would have happened if Eve (Adam) had eated of the tree of life immediately after eating the forbidden fruit. It would have destroyed the agency of man.

I think it begs thought. The consequences described are exactly the same as what Satan wanted. It would have redeemed man from physical death, but not spiritual death, which needed to be done prior to being saved from physical death. He had to have a way to overcome spiritual death in his plan, even if it couldn't work in reality. It looked to many like it could.

Edited August 19, 2011 by Justice

[Vort]

I think it's logical to assume that if Satan didn't have a plan then he wouldn't have won so many followers in the spirit world.

Of course Satan had a "plan": To destroy the agency of man and usurp God's honor. That was his plan, such as it was. That was his only plan.

Satan certainly did not have any plan of salvation. This is obvious simply by inspection: Would anyone have achieved a "saved" (i.e. exalted) state following Satan's methods? Of course not. Ergo, no plan of salvation.

I consider why Satan tempted Eve to eat the forbidden fruit to begin with, because the best way to destroy God's plan was to not tempt Eve at all. To not introduce opposition would have left them stagnate in the Garden of Eden.

Not so. The scriptures explain this clearly:

And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world.

[Justice]

I don't see how what I said disagrees with the scripture you quoted. It certainly would have destroyed the world. God placed a guard on the tree of life, which Satan did not know He was going to do. So, Satan did not know the mind of God.

So, how is what I said "not so?"

I think Alma 12 and 42 make it pretty clear.

[Vort]

I don't see how what I said disagrees with the scripture you quoted. It certainly would have destroyed the world. God placed a guard on the tree of life, which Satan did not know He was going to do. So, Satan did not know the mind of God.

So, how is what I said "not so?"

Based on the endowment presentation, we can safely assume that God's plan included introducing the erstwhile "forbidden" fruit at some point in Adam's and Eve's progression. Had Satan not tempted Eve at all, as you suggest, the default plan would then have been operative, wherein the "forbidden" fruit would have been presented to the principals in its proper order. Satan apparently believed that by making this introduction in an unauthorized way, perhaps earlier than planned and certainly without proper preparation of the principals, he could destroy the world.

[RipplecutBuddha]

agreed. The fact that the tree bearing the forbidden fruit was even in the garden at all demonstrates that it was part of God's plan, else why would God put it there?

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think it's logical to assume that if Satan didn't have a plan then he wouldn't have won so many followers in the spirit world. I'd say, not only was it a plan, but it seemed to many like it would work. It had to have ALL the properties of Father's plan. Maybe they were ordered different?

I think we come here to really appreciate what eternal joy is all about. I would imagine when talking about a plan that led to eternal joy or happiness, most would not really comprehend that goal. I think most who followed Satan's path in the pre-mortal life weren't valiant enough to realize that in order to have eternal joy one needs to continue to be valiant and obedient, that that of itself is where joy comes from. They must have thought there was another way to obtain this thing that was poorly understood by, I believe, most of us other than knowing that God had it.

If they didn't understand the concept that eternal joy comes from finding pleasure in the success of others that we are bound to or if they poorly understood that concept then their selfish tendencies would tell them that 'the price is too great, try to find another way of having eternal joy'. Not realizing Gods way is the only way to have true eternal joy.

It was probably like trying to explain the value of a 401k plan to a 10 year old who only wants to go out and buy an xbox. The thing that would drive the choice one way or the other is not recognizing all the end goals of the plans but whether a person was valiant and trusted God's decisions more than their own personal drives. Men are that they may have joy, I don't think we understood really what all the properties of the plan were until we have this experience of being "men" (or women).