Does God Love Everyone?

[rameumptom]

MM,

The difference is that we can hate a person's behaviors, but still love the individual. I can have children that do terrible things, yet I can still love them. It is not an unconditional love, but an eternal love. So, God can say he loves Jacob, but hates Esau, but when we really put the words into full context (not just one verse, but all God's words regarding both Jacob and Esau), we see that God loves Jacob for his obedience, but does love Esau as well, he just does not approve of Esau's lifestyle, and so allows Jacob to usurp the birthright.

John 3:16-17 would be very different if it said, "God so loved the world, except for those he hates, that he sent his Son to save only those he loves...." Suddenly, God would no longer love the world (of which Esau and Somalians are a part), but he is a tyrant to picks and chooses whom he will love. Fortunately, we can see God is a God of love. He forgives and remembers no more. He sacrifices his life for us. He quickly forgives. He is quick to resurrect and redeem (see Alma 36).

Let's be careful taking one phrase from the entire Bible out of context. It twists God and makes him extremely ugly.

[RescueMom]

Or perhaps some of us were just deplorable as spirits and thus it is. Certainly our pre-existent talents and traits followed us here and it stands to reason that our poor choices as well. For many, humbling in this life may be the only way they accept the gospel in the spirit realm. Certainly the Lord has wiped out entire civilizations do to wickedness....women, children and the aged, yet, at the same time as Eternal beings they will still yet have the opportunities that await all the faithful.

How do you know this? How do you know that as spirits in the pre-existence were deplorable? How do you know our choices there followed us here, other than those of us who who are here kept their first estate....those who actually made deplorable choices are not here, won't get a body and are done. Everyone else who made it here were deemed worthy to come here, even if they weren't as 'righteous' as others. But how do we know which spirits were more valiant, because of birth circumstances? Are you saying if a person is born in a occupied country, living in harsh circumstances where people are tortured and mamed, where food is hard to come by, they made bad choices in the pre-exstence?

[Vort]

Or perhaps some of us were just deplorable as spirits and thus it is

How do you know this? How do you know that as spirits in the pre-existence were deplorable? How do you know our choices there followed us here, other than those of us who who are here kept their first estate....

bytor doesn't know it. He is suggesting a possible model. I think his model is as reasonable as anyone else's. After all, why shouldn't the choices we made in premortality and the people we became be reflected in our present lives? It seems obvious to me that such personality traits must impact who we are today.

It is a leap to go from there to the idea that we are placed into a position in this life based on our premortal merit. More importantly, even if that idea is true (and I don't see why it should be dismissed out of hand; seems as reasonable as anything else), we cannot know how God thinks of different stations in life. Perhaps those born into money and privilege are the less valiant who did not earn as useful or beautiful a place as the child born into the dirt-poor but loving family.

But how do we know which spirits were more valiant, because of birth circumstances? Are you saying if a person is born in a occupied country, living in harsh circumstances where people are tortured and mamed, where food is hard to come by, they made bad choices in the pre-exstence?

Pretty sure bytor neither said nor implied any such thing.

[bytor2112]

As for tendencies towards SSA, many studies show a fairly common factor is that the child has been molested along the way by a man. Girls become man haters and therefore tend towards lesbianism. Young boys, who are starved for fatherly love, accept the homosexual experience as a loving relationship, and grow into it. I'm not saying this is true in all cases, mind you. But it is in enough cases that we can understand that environment does impact a lot of these things.

That flies in the face of what gay people think....though I agree somewhat with your reasoning. So, can we agree that we developed talents and made choices both correct and incorrect in the pre-existence? We certainly are not just blank slates at birth....personalities if you will are individualistic and are then molded and shaped by mortal experience.

[bytor2112]

How do you know this? How do you know that as spirits in the pre-existence were deplorable? How do you know our choices there followed us here, other than those of us who who are here kept their first estate....those who actually made deplorable choices are not here, won't get a body and are done. Everyone else who made it here were deemed worthy to come here, even if they weren't as 'righteous' as others. But how do we know which spirits were more valiant, because of birth circumstances? Are you saying if a person is born in a occupied country, living in harsh circumstances where people are tortured and mamed, where food is hard to come by, they made bad choices in the pre-exstence?

I don't know....just theorizing. The big choice did follow us here...or else we would have been cast out, it stands to reason that other choices followed as well. Was Mozart developing talents as a musical prodigy in the pre-mortal realm? Did Einstein excel in his desire to expand understanding while preparing for this the greatest of all tests? Were some spirits jealous of Jehovah? Did some spirits resent the plan of salvation, but chose it anyway because they understood the ultimate end of not?

[applepansy]

Beefche, don't you know that Snow usually doesn't work that way? He isn't out for answers, per se. He's out to ask difficult questions, allow people to try and answer them, and then he'll find the holes in their questions and turn it back on them. We've had this discussion before, as Dravin noted. IIRC Snow never did give any thoughts on it then, either.

This is called stirring the pot.

[Torch]

Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version):

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Now I am wondering if it would be ok for me to starve one of my three children. I mean, after all, my other two children have the agency to provide some of their food if they wanted. I will take the thanks and praises of my two children with food and continually bless them and turn my head at my starving child's plea for any amount of food.

Of course we all know that I would NEVER do something like this, so I have to wonder about God's morals

[bytor2112]

Of course we all know that I would NEVER do something like this, so I have to wonder about God's morals

Why wonder about the morals of a God that you don't believe exists?

[Vort]

Why wonder about the morals of a God that you don't believe exists?

Because apparently, this same non-existent god has a 50% chance of answering your prayers.

[Avrham]

reading this thread reminds me of the scripture that "God created the rain to fall on the just and the unjust " too me this just puts all things into one's life experiance everything is relative good and bad are no exceptions just my take:)

[Torch]

Why wonder about the morals of a God that you don't believe exists?

Because you do believe in this God who has no problem starving some of his children to death, about 28,000 a day to be exact all the while you think He cares about you not finding your car keys. And, I think you may not understand my beliefs too well either.

[Torch]

All in all, good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people every day. It doesn't seem that there is an invisible man with his hand in everything going on down here on Earth although I will not tell you there is not. Every religion has prayers that are answered, not answered, and miracles that seem to strengthen their members convictions although NO ONE religion has a monopoly on any of them. Like others have said, my chances of being healed are the same whether I pray to a specific God or the 1% milk carton, because we all know whole milk isn't good for you. :)

[bytor2112]

Because you do believe in this God who has no problem starving some of his children to death, about 28,000 a day to be exact all the while you think He cares about you not finding your car keys. And, I think you may not understand my beliefs too well either.

What evidence do you have that God starves anyone to death? The earth has ample resources to feed everyone. It is man that allows others to starve.....not God. And I spent some time questioning God's existence......

[Snow]

Snow, what are your thoughts on those questions? What should we be praying for? Are prayers about our own family members (assuming who have plenty to eat, are not suffering horrible diseases and have a home to live in) wrong?

I suppose there are two issues at stake:

1. Does God answer prayers?

2. The problem of evil - how can so much evil (moral evil caused by man and suffering caused by so called "acts of God, ie earthquakes) exist if God is benevolent and God is powerful.

My ideas are:

1. If God does answer prayers or intercede because of prayers - it is not nearly as much as some people think and there doesn't seem to be a pattern that can be relied upon. God is more distant than Mormons or conservative Christians think. Luck chance appears to play a bigger role than does just (as in justice) divine intervention.

2. I think Mormonism does a better job in explaining suffering that most theologies/philosophy but it doesn't come anywhere close to explaining it all. At the end of the day we are left with a giant mystery in which our belief does not marry well to what is experienced.

This of course bears more explanation but briefly, in a traditional Christian view, God creates everything, ex nihilo. He is ultimately responsible for everything, soup to nuts. In Mormonism, God did not create man's intelligence, nor anything ex nihilo for that matter.

Also, in Mormonism, because man's destiny is greater than in traditional Christianity, the more the notion of suffering as education has merit.

Edited August 26, 2011 by Snow
test added

[Snow]

You wrongly assume that the first and second points ought somehow to preclude the third. Minus this assumption, there is nothing mutually exclusive about the list you provide.

I agree, they are not all mutually exclusive - on an absolute basis.

You can explain some suffering as educative (it's all for the good) or some of it as a matter of justice (we sometimes deserve what what get) or some of it is not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things.

However, no one has been able to reconcile all suffering with the notion of a benevolent, just, and powerful God

[Snow]

All three can be true because of one very important principle: Agency

Agency doesn't explain the misery and suffering of a child burned to death in a wildfire.

[Snow]

Suffering and inequality are part of God's plan:

Our time here is a time of learning and growth. We cannot learn to appreciate and love the good things in our lives without experiencing the bad as well. Mortality is a time of pain, sorrow, and death- but through these experiences we come to understand the difference between good and bad, righteousness and unrighteousness, kindness and mistreatment, etc. The opposition and the struggle are necessary, even if it appears undesireable. It appears heartless and cruel, but it is out of love and patience that we are allowed to suffer through our experiences in order to learn and draw closer to God- to be humbled and seek out the help of the Savior.

Just take a moment to think about any number of good books. What makes it good? The opposition. The struggle. We enjoy seeing characters overcome great odds. We enjoy seeing them suffer and work through something hard and trying and eventually conquering it. Without "evil" to be challenged, there is no story. So it is with our lives and our personal growth. We are made stronger through our struggles, and even if there are those who end up crushed by the overbearing weight of their anguish, all will be set aright.

There are some terrible terrible things in the world. Few of us really understand the horrors that many others go through every day. Our hard times are nothing compared to the pains others may suffer on a daily basis. But no matter how bad someone has it, "these things shall give [them] experience, and shall be for [their] good".

Yes - that is one of the stock answers to the problem of evil. It is a reasonable and sufficient explanation to many things we experience. Suffering is educative. We grow because of it. It is for our good.

But that doesn't explain all evil. A simple example makes the point. A innocent toddler is kidnapped, tortured, raped and killed.

In what way is that for the child's good?

or

Why am I only allowed to suffer a little but Nigerians are blessed with horrific suffering?

Think how much more growth they are getting out of live than I am.

[Snow]

What if we as pre-mortal spirits were rebellious and because of our choices in the pre-mortal world we landed just where we are in this fallen sphere.

That was a Mormon theory about why blacks couldn't have the priesthood and, no offense to you personally bytor, I think it's a bunch of nonsense.

1. There's no evidence for it.

2. It's not doctrinal.

[volgadon]

Nobody said it better than this

Rain Dance.wmv - YouTube

[Snow]

My answer hasn't changed since: http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/27648-evil-really-gods-fault.html

I don't think I've already heard it (I admit I haven't reread the link above completely, I only scanned it to confirm it is the one where I gave my answer on the subject*), but what is your answer to your own question?

*Maybe I'm reading you incorrectly, but at it's heart your question is asking about the problem of evil.

Yeah - we've probably discussed this a hundred times... I still haven't got it figured out.

[bytor2112]

That was a Mormon theory about why blacks couldn't have the priesthood and, no offense to you personally bytor, I think it's a bunch of nonsense.

1. There's no evidence for it.

2. It's not doctrinal.

None taken and why not? Surely the choices, traits and characteristics that Jehovah obtained in the pre-mortal realms were relevant to HIS mortal sojourn....so why not the rest of us as well?

Incidentally, I thought the theory of blacks and the Priesthood had to do with the descendants of Ham rather that the pre mortal existence.

Edited August 26, 2011 by bytor2112

[Blackmarch]

There's a thread where we are discussing whether God answers prayers and how, in the face of evil and suffering, can there be a powerful God who is loving. That thread deals with one posters specific case so I'd like to separate out this issue from that specific case.

Recently my there was a priesthood lesson about the power of prayer and the well-intentioned teacher offered a recent example where he has lost his briefcase with important things it. Through prayer the contents came back into his possession.

Of course I asked why would God bless him with his iPad when he refuses to intervene to save children who are tortures, abused and killed... and he, of course, couldn't say, so he gave his testimony instead.

Every year over 3 1/2 million die of water pollution. A handful will die from it during the time it takes to read this post 15 million die of starvation, hundreds of them just while you read this post. 500,000,000 live in grinding. abject poverty. Crime, murder, rape, torture, genocide are rampart. The pain and suffering is incalculable.

On the other hand, most all of us are extremely well off - at least by comparison. We have housing, food, internet access, many have loving families, fulfilling careers, well-fed intellectual lives, favorite sports teams, diet coke.

We thank God for our blessings. Yet, if God is responsible for the food we thank Him for, He must also be responsible for the food that others don't have.

What's the difference between us and Somalians?

... the luck of where you happen to be born.

God is powerful

God is benevolent

Suffering exists

How can all three things be true.

god allows man to choose and to experience the consequence.

Nor is there any act that one can do that could upset the what the saviors atonement did.

[Vort]

However, no one has been able to reconcile all suffering with the notion of a benevolent, just, and powerful God

That is much like saying "No one has been able to concoct a dish that tastes better than Grandma's potato soup." It might well be true, but ultimately it's a matter of taste and of opinion, not a provable quantity. Such reconciliation exists only in the mind of the individual.

[Snow]

god allows man to choose and to experience the consequence.

Nor is there any act that one can do that could upset the what the saviors atonement did.

In what why did the the victim of Katrina or 911 or the recent Japanese disaster choose?

[Blackmarch]

In what why did the the victim of Katrina or 911 or the recent Japanese disaster choose?

Why were they there?