Anti-supernaturalism

[boyando]

There are many miracles that happen today, but because there are so many protender's, we are asked not to sheare them with other's, unless moved by the Holy Ghost, for fear that some people would make fun of very sacred things. I have had miracles in my live and I hope someday to share them with others, but for now I will keep them close to my heart and thank my Father in Heaven, for them.

Awaiting the day when the Lamb shall lie down with the Lion - Allmosthumble

[Snow]

Is it that you don't believe God generally intervenes in our affairs or that God is far different than most Christians imagine him (less powerful, less interested, less engaged)? Nobody wants to be the fool, and most of us agree that science is the default and best way to understand God's creation. Supernatural events are unusual and therefore supernatural. What you seem to suggest is that, by and large, even the relatively rare "miracle" accounts found in Scriptures and occasional other reports, are probably exaggerations or naive misapprehensions.

Perhaps if you could explain what you actually imagine has happened between God and his people--particularly his prophets, we could better understand your general skepticism about miracle stories.

My point is not that God can't or doesn't in some way intervene in the affairs of man. My point is that all the juciy presto-magic stuff stopped happening when man was advanced enough to double-check it.

Co-incidence?

[boyando]

<div class='quotemain'>

I'd love to see a talking donkey or a few loaves of bread feed a multitude or a sea open up and allow passage or animals from around the world show up in pairs (or 7's depending on which biblical account you believe is true) or maybe the earth to stop spinning. It just doesn't happen in this day and age (right?) but only 1000's of years ago when people didn't know any better.

Is it that you don't believe God generally intervenes in our affairs or that God is far different than most Christians imagine him (less powerful, less interested, less engaged)? Nobody wants to be the fool, and most of us agree that science is the default and best way to understand God's creation. Supernatural events are unusual and therefore supernatural. What you seem to suggest is that, by and large, even the relatively rare "miracle" accounts found in Scriptures and occasional other reports, are probably exaggerations or naive misapprehensions.

Perhaps if you could explain what you actually imagine has happened between God and his people--particularly his prophets, we could better understand your general skepticism about miracle stories.

He that knows everything, would surely know the inner working of an adam and how to manipulate an atom or smaller if there is something smaller than an atom. He who commands Angles, surely could have them put fishes in the basket's, so fast that no one on earth could see it happen. In my mind that is still natural but because we live in a world that is full of pride,some of God's children wan't to make it something that they can explain away. allmosthumble

[prisonchaplain]

My point is not that God can't or doesn't in some way intervene in the affairs of man. My point is that all the juciy presto-magic stuff stopped happening when man was advanced enough to double-check it.

Co-incidence?

Two thoughts: 1. Miracles, prophecies, etc. seem to happen in spurts in the Bible. Generations do pass during which very little happens. 2. One person's "presto-magic" is another person's "sacred miracle."

It is most healthy for the church to have some internal "skeptic" mechanisms to control those that get carried away with their own silliness. On the other hand, I hope to never get so "advanced" that I lose the ability to marvel and believe when God does indeed intervene.

[Snow]

<div class='quotemain'>

My point is not that God can't or doesn't in some way intervene in the affairs of man. My point is that all the juciy presto-magic stuff stopped happening when man was advanced enough to double-check it.

Co-incidence?

Two thoughts: 1. Miracles, prophecies, etc. seem to happen in spurts in the Bible. Generations do pass during which very little happens. 2. One person's "presto-magic" is another person's "sacred miracle."

It is most healthy for the church to have some internal "skeptic" mechanisms to control those that get carried away with their own silliness. On the other hand, I hope to never get so "advanced" that I lose the ability to marvel and believe when God does indeed intervene.

Do you have an example from modern history you can point to? Something along the lines of the earth stopping spinning, a trumpet causing stone walls or building to collaspe, a woman being turned into salt, sticks being turned into snakes, land animals swimming across thousands of miles of ocean, a pound of bread converted to 500 pounds?

Something like that?

[prisonchaplain]

Do you have an example from modern history you can point to? Something along the lines of the earth stopping spinning, a trumpet causing stone walls or building to collaspe, a woman being turned into salt, sticks being turned into snakes, land animals swimming across thousands of miles of ocean, a pound of bread converted to 500 pounds?

Something like that?

My guess response to you is that the most common type of miracles we hear about today are physical healings that are inexplicable. They may not rise to the level you inquire of, and non-religious theories can be postulated, but even many of the biblical miracles of the magnitude you refer to have secular solutions that are often no more hard to believe (for skeptics) then that a god intervened.

Apparently this process of verifying miracles is a long-standing practice, particularly in the Catholic Church. Before one can be declared a saint, there must be a verified miracle that occured posthumous associated with the candidate.

See: http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/catholicism/sainthood.html

I've seen heard and experienced things in my life that I believe are miraculous and "of God." However, the events could easily be assigned to unusual circumstances by the unbelieving.

Did I answer your question?

[Snow]

<div class='quotemain'>

Do you have an example from modern history you can point to? Something along the lines of the earth stopping spinning, a trumpet causing stone walls or building to collaspe, a woman being turned into salt, sticks being turned into snakes, land animals swimming across thousands of miles of ocean, a pound of bread converted to 500 pounds?

Something like that?

My guess response to you is that the most common type of miracles we hear about today are physical healings that are inexplicable. They may not rise to the level you inquire of, and non-religious theories can be postulated, but even many of the biblical miracles of the magnitude you refer to have secular solutions that are often no more hard to believe (for skeptics) then that a god intervened.

Apparently this process of verifying miracles is a long-standing practice, particularly in the Catholic Church. Before one can be declared a saint, there must be a verified miracle that occured posthumous associated with the candidate.

See: http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/catholicism/sainthood.html

I've seen heard and experienced things in my life that I believe are miraculous and "of God." However, the events could easily be assigned to unusual circumstances by the unbelieving.

Did I answer your question?

No - you didn't answer my question.

I'm looking for something on par with what the scriptures purport. Healings are a different animal (though of course healings are also in the scriptures). People are inexplicably healed all the time; some might have had recent contact with some religious/spiritual event and some not. To attribute the unknown to supernatural, divine intervention of the Christian God is just a guess. I'm sure I needn't explain to someone like you that attributing an un-understood recovery from an illness to the ghost of a dead Catholic is not exactly proof nor even decent evidence of anything in particular.

Now I'm not saying that God doesn't heal anyone, though I but you couild find ample evidence that many, many, many claims of divine healing are completely bogus (Peter Popov, Benny Hinn et all). If you were to divide the number of healing proven to be of God by the number of healings proven to be bogus, what to you think the resulting answer would be? Hint: if the dividend is zero, then the quotient is zero.

[boyando]

<div class='quotemain'>

Do you have an example from modern history you can point to? Something along the lines of the earth stopping spinning, a trumpet causing stone walls or building to collaspe, a woman being turned into salt, sticks being turned into snakes, land animals swimming across thousands of miles of ocean, a pound of bread converted to 500 pounds?

Something like that?

My guess response to you is that the most common type of miracles we hear about today are physical healings that are inexplicable. They may not rise to the level you inquire of, and non-religious theories can be postulated, but even many of the biblical miracles of the magnitude you refer to have secular solutions that are often no more hard to believe (for skeptics) then that a god intervened.

Apparently this process of verifying miracles is a long-standing practice, particularly in the Catholic Church. Before one can be declared a saint, there must be a verified miracle that occured posthumous associated with the candidate.

See: http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/catholicism/sainthood.html

I've seen heard and experienced things in my life that I believe are miraculous and "of God." However, the events could easily be assigned to unusual circumstances by the unbelieving.

Did I answer your question?

I think that Snow has hit on something. But I do not draw the same conclusion.

When a miracle is performed, it is for the benefit of man.

If a miracle, like, someone being rased from the dead, were caught on tape, the need for faith would be taken away, along with our free agency, as long as the tape was shown not to be a fake.

If we could easly look into heaven and see the Heavenly Host, looking down on us, could we choose good over evil? Or would we only do good because we know we are being watched? That is why we have faith in our live's, to give us full free agency. The miracle's only come after we have developed some amount of faith.

I have also heard storys about troop movements, during the seven day war with Isreal. I'm sure that there are many books on the subject, although I have never read one. The story's I've heard go along the lines that the enemies of Isreal saw ten times the troops than really existed. If true, that might fall into the catagory, above.

Giving something to think about- Your freind Allmosthumble

[Snow]

If a miracle, like, someone being rased from the dead, were caught on tape, the need for faith would be taken away, along with our free agency, as long as the tape was shown not to be a fake.

When purported miracles from the bible purported happened, those present purportedly saw them. No film need. It's just that when film was invented and available that such "miracles" stopped happening. Do you suppose that God thinks to himself, yes, a miracle is in order here... I'd really like to turn that stick into a snake but the guy from Croatia has got a camera so I can't.

What purpose do stories like the earth being magically covered in water up to the top of Mt. Everest and then all the water and evidence of it magically disappearing serve?

[roman]

To reveal part of Gods attributes and character. Also to show us how God deals with sin and unbelief.

What purpose do stories like the earth being magically covered in water up to the top of Mt. Everest and then all the water and evidence of it magically disappearing serve?

[Snow]

To reveal part of Gods attributes and character. Also to show us how God deals with sin and unbelief.

What purpose do stories like the earth being magically covered in water up to the top of Mt. Everest and then all the water and evidence of it magically disappearing serve?

So it's not the miracle that has value, it's the story. Oh. I like stories.

[Traveler]

<div class='quotemain'>

To reveal part of Gods attributes and character. Also to show us how God deals with sin and unbelief.

What purpose do stories like the earth being magically covered in water up to the top of Mt. Everest and then all the water and evidence of it magically disappearing serve?

So it's not the miracle that has value, it's the story. Oh. I like stories.

I have always believed that G-d has no fear of man nor does he hide miracles from the "light of day". It would appear to me that those that did not believe that a miracle flood could occur were not on the ark when it did occurred.

The point of life is not to experience miracles but I agree somewhat with Snow (not completely) that miracles seem to be smaller and closed to the light of day in our era. I have read with interest as posters have given opinions as to why. I think the reason has been lost in the purpose of miracles in the first place.

My Thoughts

The Traveler

[roman]

Its the power and majesty of the miracle that brings value to the story.

[Snow]

If the value and purpose in the miracle is "to reveal part of Gods attributes and character. Also to show us how God deals with sin and unbelief" and there is no proof any of the biblical miracles ever occurred and God himself has never said anything about them one way or the other, then what's the difference between a fictional story that people accept and something that may have really happened?

[prisonchaplain]

No - you didn't answer my question.

Okay, then. The short answer is NO, I've not personally seen tangible evidence of the types of macro-miracles described in Scriptures. As a thought, didn't Joseph Smith claim to have seen some miracles of this type? I'm not sure the events surrounding the finding and translating of the Standard Works is what you had in mind, but they might definitely qualify if they could be verified.

[Dr T]

Why no big miracles like the regrowth of a limb? Does the Bible talk about miracles passing away?

[roman]

If the value and purpose in the miracle is "to reveal part of Gods attributes and character. Also to show us how God deals with sin and unbelief" and there is no proof any of the biblical miracles ever occurred and God himself has never said anything about them one way or the other, then what's the difference between a fictional story that people accept and something that may have really happened?

Excellant question. I'm not sure I'm qualified to bring forth a 100% conclusive answer, but this is what works for me. It may not work for anyone else---but it does for me.

When the testing of faith comes------a real life event that has happened will help me through it all because it was real---with real people and real results. With just a made up story the reality of it, has no basis for much of anything and hence stands on nothing. Which in turn means it can and will fail a person.

BTW God may not have said alot about his work but Jesus does say somethings about some of those events as well as other Biblical authors------and since the scriptures were inspired by God----one could say that God was speaking of them

[boyando]

Once again, I think that we have strayed from PC's question. Were the miracles spoken of, in the scriptures, slide of hand, natural occurrence or of a Devine origin? My vote is for Devine origin.

I may have traded the term supernatural for Devine origin (I hope you don't mind, PC) because a miracle is a natural thing to God.

As too the second question that has popped up in this thread, the more I think of it, the more I think that there are a lot of miracles performed equal to those in the scriptures, that for some reason, hav not been added to the cannonized works. I.E. the crossing of a frozen Mississippi river. The hand cart company who when the could pull no more, were pulled by there hand carts.

I welcome other thoughts on the matter and plead with everyone, don't base your testimony on miracles and don't forget to thank God, when they occur in your life. I have had many occasion, in my own life, were I was found with the nine leper's instead of the one.

Your Friend - Allmosthumble

[Dr T]

What about the miracle of the who world/universe? Those are pretty impressive!

[Snow]

<div class='quotemain'>

If the value and purpose in the miracle is "to reveal part of Gods attributes and character. Also to show us how God deals with sin and unbelief" and there is no proof any of the biblical miracles ever occurred and God himself has never said anything about them one way or the other, then what's the difference between a fictional story that people accept and something that may have really happened?

Excellant question. I'm not sure I'm qualified to bring forth a 100% conclusive answer, but this is what works for me. It may not work for anyone else---but it does for me.

When the testing of faith comes------a real life event that has happened will help me through it all because it was real---with real people and real results. With just a made up story the reality of it, has no basis for much of anything and hence stands on nothing. Which in turn means it can and will fail a person.

BTW God may not have said alot about his work but Jesus does say somethings about some of those events as well as other Biblical authors------and since the scriptures were inspired by God----one could say that God was speaking of them

I taught the lesson in Priesthood Meeting today and the topic was Living by Faith...

I specifically used what you said yesterday in my lesson. The lesson went over very well and we ran out so time well before folks were done discussion the issue.

Thanks Roman, PrisonChaplain and all others that participated on this thread. You help has given me some insights.

Snow

[prisonchaplain]

Here's an afterthought: We've all hinted at the idea of "small miracles"--the unexplained circumstances in our lives that--when see through eyes of faith--seem to indicate God's intervention. Likewise, there has been reference to the ultimate miracle--the existance of all that is, etc.

Snow has shown that it is possible to have faith in God, while questioning some "sacred cows" of orthodoxy. Without many of the big miracles, Scriptures are still rich.

I still believe those big miracles happened, and more may be happening and will happen. However, God remains God regardless.

[Traveler]

Another two cents worth from me concerning miracles. Miracles are based on faith. I hope I do not have to explain this in more detail. Paul tells us that faith is evidence. What I would like to point out here is that evidence is not proof but what evidence does is give us hope to continue.

Evidence can be both to bring us (continue) to truth and to tempt us (continue) from truth dependent on what we seek. I believe that Jesus taught that what we seek we will find and I believe this applies to what we would like to believe or what we would like not to believe. So what do we want to believe - the truth or a counterfeit of truth?

The best example of miracles bringing us to a correct or counterfeit truth is given in the Book of Mormon concerning the planting of a seed and how to know if it is a good seed. This teaching is quite similar to the parable of the seed as taught by Jesus - but I like to call it the parable of the soil because the difference is not in the seed or the rain and sunshine but in the preparation of soil. Only the soil that was prepared (rocks removed, weeds removed, softened from being made hard from being walked upon) will allow the seed of truth to grow.

The Traveler