Question about free agency

[Justice]

But, Justice, FWIW, people don't honor what Bernie Madoff did by calling his investment regimen a "plan". It is rightly dismissed as a "scam", regardless of whatever his dupes thought and regardless of whether he had convinced himself (as many of these jokers do) that somehow he'd always be able to get what he needed to pay the piper.

We have no qualms about dismissing the promises of Madoff, the Enron gang, Charles Keeting, and hucksters from time immemorial as "scams". Why do we dignify Lucifer by calling his proposal a "plan" rather than the celestial ponzi scheme that it was?

I guess it comes down to intentions. Lucifer said he would return all Father's children. Was he lying?

At first thought it seems obvious that he was. But, remember, he was going down this road too. Would he knowingly do this to himself for eternity by proposing and supporting a plan that he knew wouldn't work?

I don't know. If you say it was just a big scam, then let's call it a scam.

There's still a small part of me that thinks he believed his alteration would work. A third part of the children of God, the morning stars, believed it would. It must have seemed like it had merit.

When I call it Satan's plan I do so with full knowledge that it had no chance of working. Maybe that doesn't fit the term plan.

Edited September 26, 2011 by Justice

[Justice]

Nonsense. They were not cast out of heaven and eternally damned merely because they chose wrongly. They were cast out and eternally damned because they openly rebelled against the Father of all. This was no mere "oopsie". This was rank rebellion, open defiance of God himself. Satan sought the Father's glory and openly rebelled, and those who were like Satan followed him.

There is no other reasonable interpretation of the scriptures. Those Latter-day Saints who hold to the idea that those cast out just "chose wrong" utterly miss the point, and completely fail to explain why those lost souls (and they are eternally lost) seek the destruction of us all. They openly rebelled and defied God the Father.

Please, let's have no more of this ridiculous nonsense that the premortal council and, ultimately, the war in heaven, were simply a "choice" between "competing plans", and Satan's followers were simply "deceived" and just "chose wrong".

All good points.

The way I see it, the rebellion you speak of was driven by this alteration to Father's plan propsed by Lucifer. The choice they made to follow this opposing plan proposed by Lucifer was their rebellion. It's the same choice we make here on earth. Those who follow Satan are in rebellion of God. God commands against following Satan but leaves it for us to decide.

We have two possibilities in front of us, eternal life, or eternal damnation. Our choices day by day bring about these consequences.

I think God gave them what they desired. They chose their own consequences. They did not want to come to earth and become mortal and trust another to redeem them. They did not exercise faith in Christ, just as we fail to here at times.

We have an opportunity to repent because we chose to come here. We put our faith in Christ, and because of Him we can repent. They have no redeemer to allow them to repent; they have no savior.

I think it's semmantics, really. I think the rebellion you speak of was this lack of faith in Christ.

[shine7]

"Thanks Pam, but your reply simply reinforces my question - you say we chose free agency, thereby implying that we already had the ability to choose and make wise choices - so why did we need to come here if we already possessed those important abilities? I've always been taught that one of the purposes of mortality was to learn how to make wise choices but it seems as if we knew how to do that before we got here."

We came to earth to experience agency/choices in an atmosphere of opposites

[Just_A_Guy]

I guess it comes down to intentions. Lucifer said he would return all Father's children. Was he lying?

At first thought it seems obvious that he was. But, remember, he was going down this road too. Would he knowingly do this to himself for eternity by proposing and supporting a plan that he knew wouldn't work?

You're postulating here that Satan intended for the plan to work--or even to be implemented. Obviously, this is all speculation; but my sense is that the "plan" was just a carefully calculated "wedge issue" designed to turn a critical mass of the Father's children against Him and drive them into Lucifer's arms.

There's still a small part of me that thinks he believed his alteration would work. A third part of the children of God, the morning stars, believed it would. It must have seemed like it had merit.

True; but it was more than that. Those who followed Lucifer trusted--perhaps loved--him more than they loved the Father. In that regard, one might say that their ultimate sin was the same as Cain. They are no longer innocent dupes; they have declared allegiance to another god.

[questioning_seeker]

I think some of us may be not be giving sufficient consideration to Lucifer's pre-mortal position. Wasn't he said to have had a fairly senior position in the pre-existence? If that is the case, first, he probably wouldn't have got to that position unless he was meeting certain righteous and worthy criteria, and second, if he was in a senior position, he possibly had (mostly) good intentions regarding his Plan B.

[questioning_seeker]

And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that many of us, if not all, may be saved in his kingdom at that great and last day. - (Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 33:12)

Of course Christ prayed that many of us, if not all, would be saved in his kingdom. I can't imagine Him doing otherwise, or only praying for just some of us. Of course, He also prayed (New Testament | Matthew 26:39) saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me" and that prayer was not granted.

I think most of us - if not all of us - will make it!

See (New Testament | Matthew 24:38 - 41)

For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes...(New Testament | Revelation 21:4)

I we don't all make it, I don't see how all tears could be "wiped away" needless to say, I have great faith in our Father's plan - I think we will all be doing the victory dance together (even if in the meantime a few fear-tactics have to be used to get us all in shape ) jmo!

enlightenment can only be gained one way - through painful personal experience....

there is no other way to gain it than what we have right here, right now.

9 And now, my son, I have told you this that ye may learn wisdom, that ye may learn of me that there is no other way or means whereby man can be saved, only in and through Christ. Behold, he is the life and the light of the world. Behold, he is the word of truth and righteousness. (Book of Mormon | Alma 38:9)

I understand that under the current set of rules governing mortality, there is no other way whereby we can be saved, only through Christ, but we are speculating here about a type of mortality that could have been quite different from the current version, and under this different version, there might have been 50 different ways by which we could have been saved.

[james12]

Let me set up some ground rules to allow for clear speculation on Satan's Plan of Redemption or Plan of Happiness. These core assumptions will allow us to have a great conversation on the subject.

Satan's Character

Assumption 1: The Great Deciever the Father of Lies told the truth.

Nothwithstanding all subsequent lies and half-truths we will assume that when Satan said, "I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost" he ment it. We will base this on the fact that he was a "son of the morning".

Assumption 2: The most extreme megalomaniac in the history of the known universe wanted to improve the lot of man.

We read in Moses 1: "Satan cried with a loud voice, and ranted upon the earth, and commanded, saying: I am the Only Begotten, worship me." We will assume this blasphemy began after his plan was rejected. We will also assume that when he originally sought to be the Only Begotten this was not a massive play for power but that he sincerely desired to improve our condition out of the kindness of his heart.

Workings of the Plan

Assumption 3: By restricting our agency we would progress.

Even though D&C 93:29-31 indicates that our very existance implies the ability to act for ourselves, we will assume that Satan, by eliminating or vastly restricting our agency, could help us progress. This is the highlight of the plan and the real exciting part...because we have no options we don't need to choose!!!

Assumption 4: After the plan is complete Satan will give us back our agency.

I might be making a small logical leap here but I don't believe anyone wants to be the devil or an angel to the devil (I realize Satan is a good guy so I might be mistaken). Regardless, at some point (perhaps after the plan is complete) we will assume that Satan intends to give us back our agency. Of course we will continue to worship him, otherwise he would lose his honor and glory, but we can now continue to progress.

There you have it. I'm starting to wonder why I chose Father's plan in the first place. Except for the fact that they don't have a physical body Satan's minions on the earth are likely so happy, not to mention the power.

[Traveler]

...

I understand that under the current set of rules governing mortality, there is no other way whereby we can be saved, only through Christ, but we are speculating here about a type of mortality that could have been quite different from the current version, and under this different version, there might have been 50 different ways by which we could have been saved.

It is my understanding that there is only one "way" to eternal life in the society that we understand as the Kingdom of heaven. I think it foolish to believe that there is any other possibility other than the one G-d is using as his “plan”. To think that G-d had something "better" in mind but that his better idea was ruined by Satan - to me is very troublesome. Both in regards to G-d’s actual understanding of the future and G-d ability to defeat Satan.

In essence to believe there is a “better” way than what is currently G-d’s way as we now experience is, in my mind, as much a rebellion against G-d as I see possible. To think that the fall was not necessary or the best possible solution, or exactly what G-d wanted to occur - I don’t see how someone could have “faith” in a G-d and believe otherwise.

The question is: are we following G-d’s plan or not. If we are not following his first and best plan then we are not following “his” plan - a force other than G-d is running things and G-d - like the rest of us - is struggling to keep obtain the next best option.

The Traveler

[Justice]

it is impossible for Satan to redeem anyone

I will never dispute this.

What I am doing is suggesting that all who followed Satan believed he had the ability to do what he said he could. It seems silly to have to suggest that if they didn't believe that they wouldn't have followed him.

So, for us to say his plan wouldn't work is based on the fact that we know that. Those who followed him did not know that, as for the previously stated reason, so to them it would have been a plan.

What the scriptures aren't very clear about is whether or not Lucifer believed his plan would work. A valid question is did he even really want to save anyone?

All speculation. But, to those who followed Satan, they must have believed his plan would work. To say otherwise is suggesting they would knowingly follow a plan they didn't believe would work. I think that opinion is narrow minded, based on what we now know, showing the lack of the ability to put yourself in their place.

Alma 12 and 42 give us some insight to Lucifer's plan. Alma even alludes to Lucifer's plan.

Edited September 26, 2011 by Justice

[Justice]

It is my understanding that there is only one "way" to eternal life in the society that we understand as the Kingdom of heaven. I think it foolish to believe that there is any other possibility other than the one G-d is using as his “plan”. To think that G-d had something "better" in mind but that his better idea was ruined by Satan - to me is very troublesome. Both in regards to G-d’s actual understanding of the future and G-d ability to defeat Satan.

This should go without saying.

The sole purpose for the creation was to provide a way (part of His plan) where His children could fall and follow through with what they chose... mortality. There is only one kind of mortality.

We have Lehi to thank for some powerful truths taught in the Book of Mormon.

2 Nephi chapter 2:

17 And I, Lehi, according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written, had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God.

18 And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.

19 And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth.

20 And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth.

21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

All speculation should be grounded in these precious truths.

[questioning_seeker]

Nicely written James, and you express a very similar viewpoint/understanding as my own

[james12]

I will never dispute this.

What I am doing is suggesting that all who followed Satan believed he had the ability to do what he said he could. It seems silly to have to suggest that if they didn't believe that they wouldn't have followed him.

So, for us to say his plan wouldn't work is based on the fact that we know that. Those who followed him did not know that, as for the previously stated reason, so to them it would have been a plan.

What the scriptures aren't very clear about is whether or not Lucifer believed his plan would work. A valid question is did he even really want to save anyone?

All speculation. But, to those who followed Satan, they must have believed his plan would work. To say otherwise is suggesting they would knowingly follow a plan they didn't believe would work. I think that opinion is narrow minded, based on what we now know, showing the lack of the ability to put yourself in their place.

Alma 12 and 42 give us some insight to Lucifer's plan. Alma even alludes to Lucifer's plan.

Is it really so impossible to believe that individuals followed Satan's plan based on something else besides logic? I must look to myself to try and find some of these answers...

Why do I follow Satan? Is it because I believe his plan will exalt me? Is it because logically his plan makes the most sense? Or, do I follow based on feeling? In the worst case scenario do I continue to follow until I am a slave to appetite? I must conclude that logic has little to do with it. So is it really so impossible to imagine that spirits followed Satan in pre-mortality based on feeling and not logic?

[Guest gopecon]

Let me set up some ground rules to allow for clear speculation on Satan's Plan of Redemption or Plan of Happiness. These core assumptions will allow us to have a great conversation on the subject.

Satan's Character

Assumption 1: The Great Deciever the Father of Lies told the truth.

Nothwithstanding all subsequent lies and half-truths we will assume that when Satan said, "I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost" he ment it. We will base this on the fact that he was a "son of the morning".

Assumption 2: The most extreme megalomaniac in the history of the known universe wanted to improve the lot of man.

We read in Moses 1: "Satan cried with a loud voice, and ranted upon the earth, and commanded, saying: I am the Only Begotten, worship me." We will assume this blasphemy began after his plan was rejected. We will also assume that when he originally sought to be the Only Begotten this was not a massive play for power but that he sincerely desired to improve our condition out of the kindness of his heart.

Workings of the Plan

Assumption 3: By restricting our agency we would progress.

Even though D&C 93:29-31 indicates that our very existance implies the ability to act for ourselves, we will assume that Satan, by eliminating or vastly restricting our agency, could help us progress. This is the highlight of the plan and the real exciting part...because we have no options we don't need to choose!!!

Assumption 4: After the plan is complete Satan will give us back our agency.

I might be making a small logical leap here but I don't believe anyone wants to be the devil or an angel to the devil (I realize Satan is a good guy so I might be mistaken). Regardless, at some point (perhaps after the plan is complete) we will assume that Satan intends to give us back our agency. Of course we will continue to worship him, otherwise he would lose his honor and glory, but we can now continue to progress.

There you have it. I'm starting to wonder why I chose Father's plan in the first place. Except for the fact that they don't have a physical body Satan's minions on the earth are likely so happy, not to mention the power.

With the exception of #1 (I'll grant that he probably meant it), I don't buy your assumptions. I think that you are spreading the lies that Satan would have us believe.

2) He sought to take the honor of God unto himself. This was not done out of the kindness of his heart. Things may have gone farther downhill after this, but his plan was deeply flawed and a direct assault on the Father.

3) Maybe this was a part of Satan's argument that enticed followers, but the reality is that agency is required for growth. There really is no easy way out.

4) Again, maybe this was what he said, but it would not work this way. People may not have known what would happen and chosen willingly to become "angels to the devil", but they did choose to reject the Father's plan.

[Vort]

With the exception of #1 (I'll grant that he probably meant it), I don't buy your assumptions. I think that you are spreading the lies that Satan would have us believe.

I'm pretty sure that was his point, including #1. You have to turn religious doctrine and observable reality on its head to buy into the idea that Satan and his minions were just tryin' to do somethin' good, after all, and they rilly, rilly b'lieved they could make a diffrunce, poor ol' guys.

Satan is a liar and deceiver from the beginning. He seeks the destruction of all men and women. He would have usurped the Father's honor to himself if he could have. The God and creator of all things saw fit to cast Satan and his followers out of his divine presence for all eternity, and even refers to Satan as "Lost" ("Perdition") and his followers as Perdition's sons.

It is hubris of the most ridiculous sort for anyone to second-guess God and say that Satan and his minions were just sincere but misguided. I suspect this absurd belief stems, at least in part, from the mistaken idea that Jesus and Satan presented and stumped for competing plans that we voted on.

There was ONE plan: The Father's plan. We did not vote on it. Divine rule is not by democracy. The First agreed to serve as the Mediator required at the crux of the Father's plan. Satan demanded that he be the Mediator, but of course changed the position from one of service and self-sacrifice to one of glorification and self-aggrandizement. Many individuals, doubtless those likewise drunk with the lust for power and honor, willingly followed him in rebellion against the Father.

Seriously, people, it's time to stop this nonsense about how Satan "really believed he could save everyone". The scriptures are quite clear about the character of Satan and his goals, then and now.

P.S. What is "a son of the morning"? Where do the scriptures teach that it's some great, exalted position? Heck, maybe *I* was a "son of the morning". Maybe you were. It was a position of some sort and apparently worthy of mention, but this whole Mormon mythology that says the erstwhile Lucifer was "second behind Christ" is nondoctrinal tripe. We would do better to stick with scriptural teachings rather than invent a bunch of speculation.

[james12]

Yes my whole "Satan's Plan of Happiness" post was an attempt at irony. I hoped to show, in a comical way, what a flimsy house of cards needs to set up in order to even consider Satan's plan capable of improving our condition.

I have enjoyed the discussion and don't mean to disparage anyone from thinking through the issue. I think the comments and questions have been useful. It has even helped clarify a few thoughts in my own head.

It seems sarcasm sometimes doesn't come across very well in writing. I'm not a big smiley face fan but I'm afraid I might need to use some more of them in the future! :)

[Justice]

So is it really so impossible to imagine that spirits followed Satan in pre-mortality based on feeling and not logic?

It's entirely possible I wasn't very clear. I never intended to say they followed Satan because of logic. However, the plan had to make sense, or they had to believe it could work, even if in reality it couldn't.

[Justice]

The only point I made (or tried to make) is that:

those that followed Satan believed his plan would work.

I never said Satan did. I don't know if Satan did.

1/3 of the hosts of heaven followed Satan, yet they believed his way would not work?

That borders on impossibility. Even if some of them knew it would not work and were part of the deception, SOME had to follow because they believed it would work.

Please don't twist my words on this matter. I have tried to be very clear.

[Vort]

It's entirely possible I wasn't very clear. I never intended to say they followed Satan because of logic. However, the plan had to make sense, or they had to believe it could work, even if in reality it couldn't.

Those who rebelled against the Father were not concerned with eternal life. They were concerned with power. They rebelled, as their father rebelled, to procure honor to themselves through the enslavement of the rest.

The only point I made (or tried to make) is that:

those that followed Satan believed his plan would work.

I see no reason to believe this. Satan's "plan" was to enslave us and procure God's "honor". He had no other plan, just lies and prevarications. Those who followed him were those who lusted for power as he did. For a good example in mortality, see Amlici.

Edited September 27, 2011 by Vort

[Justice]

No reason?

You think they backed Satan believing they would fail?

I see no reason to believe that.

A lust for power never condemned a man on earth. What condemns a man is failure to trust Christ. They sided with Satan because they didn't want to place their trust in another for their redemption. Satan's plan removed mortality from the equation, giving the illusion of safety, or the illusion that a savior would not be required. When in actuality, mortality WAS the safety, because only in mortality could a redeemer atone for sin. The difference Satan proposed was subtle.

Read Alma 12 and 42.

Also, Alma 43 and 44 teach quite a bit about the pre-mortal existence through the metaphor of a war on earth. Give it a read and let me know what you think.

We'll probably just have to agree to disagree on the point that ALL who followed Satan did so because they lusted for power. I don't disagree that some did. But, I also believe many did not want to trust another for redemption and wanted a more sure way, which Satan seemingly proposed (we've already discussed the fact it wouldn't work, but that doesn't mean they didn't believe it would).

[rameumptom]

I see it as a difference in liberty vs Safety/Security. We have the very same issue ongoing in our world today. Some believe that liberty is the best thing. Liberty allows people to become the most they can be.

The Safety/Security people state that too much liberty opens up too much risk. Total liberty allows people to crush other people. It allows people to suffer needlessly. Such is a major debate in religion today (including Mormonism) on the problem with Suffering. Why does God allow mankind to suffer such heinous things, if he really loves them?

I see this as the argument in the premortal existence. One cannot have absolute security or absolute liberty without giving up the other. I see Satan as offering a plan where all would be saved without suffering. In exchange, the only choice given mankind would be what flavor of ice cream they want: chocolate or vanilla. Most liberty/agency is taken away in being secure and safe.

This is why so many people today prefer a strong caretaker government over liberty. They want safety nets. They want someone to coddle them and protect them from themselves and others. They don't want to be hungry, homeless, or afraid. They want to live their lives simply: go to work, go home and watch tv. Such is the life one finds in the books 1984 and Brave New World. And both those books show that most people are very satisfied to live as an automaton, as long as their basic needs are handled. It is the person who seeks liberty and choice that is the person who stands out, who is disruptive and a menace to such a society.

This is the reason why Satan and his demons consider Christ and his true followers as such a danger. They see liberty in any large measure as a danger to safety and security.

So, Satan's plan was extremely enticing to 1/3 of the host of heaven. They did not want to suffer. They did not want to risk or experience pain, hunger and disease. But as we see in real life, most of those who dwell in such safety zones of welfare end up never reach their full potential. Because of our welfare state in the USA, there are more young black men in prison than in college.

[Justice]

Ram, in Alma 43 and 44 it states exactly what you said.

I believe the war in Alma 43 and 44 is a type or parable of the war in heaven.

Listen to what it says the Nephites fought for, and compare it to what those in the pre-mortal existence may have fought for:

Alma 43:

9 And now the design of the Nephites was to support their lands, and their houses, and their wives, and their children, that they might preserve them from the hands of their enemies; and also that they might preserve their rights and their privileges, yea, and also their liberty, that they might worship God according to their desires.

This is what those who followed Christ in the pre-mortal existence wanted. Many of these words, though used in the context of this war between the Nephites and Lamanites, could have a spiritual expression and symbolize something in the pre-mortal existence.

Lands could be coming to earth

Houses could be their right to have a body

Wives could be the right to gain the knowledge of good and evil and have a spouse

Children could mean offspring on earth and/or eternal offspring

Other words in the chapters have symbols too. Like when you see "swords" it could possibly mean "words."

I'd love it if people would read Alma 43 and 44 and look for these comparisons and share them. I've tried to do this before but no one took part.

Edited September 28, 2011 by Justice

[SteveVH]

Remember that LDS belif is that Adam and Eve chose to Fall. Accordingly, they chose the consequences. When we read the list of consequences it looks like a punishment, but I wonder...

Catholics, as well, believe that Adam and Eve chose to fall. We believe that they did not have to wait to eat of the fruit of the Tree in order to acquire free will. They freely chose to disobey God and therefore were guilty of this sin.

I will admit that this area of Mormon thought poses some real problems for me, at least in the manner in which it has been presented to me by other Mormons. It is my understanding that you believe that Adam and Eve's disobedience was necessary in order for humans to progress to their divine state. It was necessary for them to acquire the knowledge of good and evil by eating of the Tree. As always, please stop me if I am not correctly presenting the Mormon position. As it has been explained to me, God gave them two commands. The first was to be fruitful and multiply. The second was that they were forbidden to eat of the Tree. Adam was then faced with a decision. Was he to side with Eve in order to keep the first command to be fruitful and multiply? Or was he to side with God and remain faithful, thereby keeping the command not to eat of the Tree, but forsaking the command to be fruitful and multiply?

I find the entire scenario to be at odds with a just God. It is like making a requirement for one to drive to a town 60 miles away in 30 minutes wihout breaking the speed limit and then punishing the one who cannot accomplish the task. Anyway, I want to make sure that I understand the proper Mormon perspective on this before going any further.

Thanks.

[Justice]

You got it mostly right.

I'll add to your comments:

...unless gaining the knowledge of good and evil was necessary to their progression. To me, the Bible can be interpreted as saying it was at least necessary to them having children. However, gaining this knowledge comes with consequences, and God was warning them of the consequences... namely, death.

The reason for the seeming contradiction in commands is clear to me. One cannot be rewarded or punished unless what they do is their choice. If God did not give them the first commandment to multiply and replenish the earth, they would have had no reason to exercise their agency to eat the fruit, and unless it was their choice (meaning the opposition had to be present), there could have been no punishment, or in other words, no progression.

We simply believe earth life (mortality) is necessary in our progression. God provided an opportunity for man to choose it, by offering opposition.

God does all things in His knowledge of all things, and provided a way for us to make choices for ourselves, which would lead to our progression (to those who choose good over evil, or the spiritual over the physical, or God over Satan).

The whole key was that Adam and Eve had to choose to fall for themselves in order to be punished or rewarded for doing it. So, God provided opposition for them to make their choice.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Justice

[Justice]

We believe that they did not have to wait to eat of the fruit of the Tree in order to acquire free will.

We share this belief. In fact, we believe we had "free will," as you call it, in the pre-mortal existence. It is what Lucifer and those who followed him exercised to choose against God's will for them. It is why they were cast out and are on earth as spirits without physical bodies.

They freely chose to disobey God and therefore were guilty of this sin.

The problem here is that they were in a state of innocence until they ate the forbidden fruit. If a young child, like age 4 or so, did something wrong that they had no understanding of, like pinched a grown lady on the butt, he is guilty of the act itself, but it had no sexual motivation. He did not understand how it disrespected the woman. So, a "law" was broken, yes, but it wasn't rebellion against something they understood, until after they ate the fruit.

They did choose to disobey God, but they wanted the consequences, namely the knowledge of good and evil, so they could keep the first commandment. Even though they were well aware of the negative consequences, they had faith that Christ would deliver them from those effects. Their motives were not rebellion against God, because they didn't understand what rebellion was. They had not experienced anything like that before.

[SteveVH]

The problem here is that they were in a state of innocence until they ate the forbidden fruit. If a young child, like age 4 or so, did something wrong that they had no understanding of, like pinched a grown lady on the butt, he is guilty of the act itself, but it had no sexual motivation. He did not understand how it disrespected the woman. So, a "law" was broken, yes, but it wasn't rebellion against something they understood, until after they ate the fruit.

They did choose to disobey God, but they wanted the consequences, namely the knowledge of good and evil, so they could keep the first commandment. Even though they were well aware of the negative consequences, they had faith that Christ would deliver them from those effects. Their motives were not rebellion against God, because they didn't understand what rebellion was. They had not experienced anything like that before.

First of all, thank you very much for both of your posts above. You explain your position very clearly and it is appreciated.

I certainly agree that Adam and Eve were created in original innocence. Innocence, however, does not necessarily equate with ignorance or naivity. It means one is free from guilt. I believe that God created mankind with free will as it is an absolute necessity in order to love authentically. God created us so that we might freely choose to love him, therefore free will is part of our original nature and not something which we must subsequently acquire.

This is why I would take issue with the analogy of the four year old that did something wrong but had no understanding of it. If Adam and Eve had no understanding of what they were doing (it was just that the candy looked so sweet) then it would be an unjust God, indeed, that would have said in response to this innocent act:

" To the woman he said: 'I will intensify the pangs of your childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Yet your urge will be for your husband and he shall be your master. To the man he said 'Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree of which I had forbidden you to eat, 'cursed be the ground because of you! In toil shall you eat its yield all the days of your life. Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to you, as you eat of the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face shall you get bread to eat. Until you return to the ground from which you were taken; For you are dirt and to dirt you shall return.'" (Gen 3:16-19)

This seems a rather intense punishment for one committing an innocent act. There seems to be a notion that Adam and Eve were walking around in some blissful fog, not knowing right from wrong. But we know this for sure. They knew they were disobeying God and that the consequence for doing so was, ultimately death. "...in the day that you eat of it you shall die." (Gen 2:17) The Hebrew idiom translates literally as "you shall die die". So God was not only speaking of physical death, but spiritual death as well.

We also know this for sure. That Adam and Eve already had the knowledge of "good". They walked with God, who is goodness itself. All of creation had been given to them and they wanted for nothing. The best they could hope to gain from eating of the tree was the knowledge of evil. The consequences of their actions certainly demonstrate that they got what they asked for, but not what they expected. They were tricked into believing that God was holding out on them. Why could they eat of every tree in the garden except this one? Satan was more than happy to provide the answer. Because God knew that if they ate of it they would become just like him. Even though they had been tricked, their desire was completley selfish. They would become like God in spite of God and chose to disobey his direct command in order to serve their selfish desires. They were not innocent and God's punishment is the evidence of their guilt.

This is running long but is necessary in order to make my point. If God, on one hand, commanded them to "be fruitful and multiply" and at the same time gave a command forbiding them from doing the very thing they had to do in order to remain faithful to that first command then God was complicit in their sin. They had no choice but to sin because God left them with no other choice. This is the problem I have with this particular viewpoint. I see nowhere in Genesis that indicates that disobeying God was necessary in order to procreate. Yes, they had no children before the fall, but this does not mean that they could not have. God tells Eve that he will intensify her pain. Intensify it from what? The only logical answer is that it would be intensified from what it would have been if she had not sinned.

Anyway, I would be interested in your comments.

Edited October 1, 2011 by StephenVH