I Have 6 Questions....

[Jason]

Nice post Ray!

I was actually recently told a ture story about that!

The missionaries were going door to door, and a bible scholar let them in.

They enter, and ask what he wants in a church, and he said "I want it to follow everything the bible says the church of God should have." So they are like, "Okay. What do you think it should have?" And the man said, "They have to claim revelation from God" and the missionaries where like, "Our church does!" and they told of prophets and todays prophet. Than the man said,"It has to be a restored church." And the missionaries were like, yey inside, and told of the restoration. After, the man said, "The true church has to worphop on a Saturday".. and the missionaries were like... "Oh.... well, we don't, but we will come back when we can explain that to you!". They came back the next day and told how Jesus died on a Sunday, and we worship on Sundays to comemorate that. He was still like, "No... it has to worship on Saturdays." They eventually just said, "Your problem isn't with Sundays. It is with the Book of Mormon. Either it is true or it isn't." They Challenged him to read it, and he did in about a week or something like that, and decided he had no problem with Sunday worship.

"True doctrine understood changes attitudes and behaviours."

Hi desire

That's actually a faith-promoting rumor. Variants of that story have been told by many people and different churches for decades.

Sorry.

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

Nice post Ray!

I was actually recently told a ture story about that!

The missionaries were going door to door, and a bible scholar let them in.

They enter, and ask what he wants in a church, and he said "I want it to follow everything the bible says the church of God should have." So they are like, "Okay. What do you think it should have?" And the man said, "They have to claim revelation from God" and the missionaries where like, "Our church does!" and they told of prophets and todays prophet. Than the man said,"It has to be a restored church." And the missionaries were like, yey inside, and told of the restoration. After, the man said, "The true church has to worphop on a Saturday".. and the missionaries were like... "Oh.... well, we don't, but we will come back when we can explain that to you!". They came back the next day and told how Jesus died on a Sunday, and we worship on Sundays to comemorate that. He was still like, "No... it has to worship on Saturdays." They eventually just said, "Your problem isn't with Sundays. It is with the Book of Mormon. Either it is true or it isn't." They Challenged him to read it, and he did in about a week or something like that, and decided he had no problem with Sunday worship.

"True doctrine understood changes attitudes and behaviours."

Hi desire

That's actually a faith-promoting rumor. Variants of that story have been told by many people and different churches for decades.

Sorry.

Whatcha so sorry about, Jason?

Some rumors are nothing but truth... with lots of variance in all kinds of religions... for those who keep learning more truth. :)

[Dr T]

Hi Desire,

I'd have to take that as a fable. The line about ,"It has to be a restored church" is not consistent with what would be expected in an encounter like that described. Apart from the LDS church, I know of no other group that claims a need for restoration.

Just my two cents. Sorry,

Dr. T

[rosie321]

Hello Rosie,

Again I apologize to anyone/everyone it I’ve come on to strong or it seemed like I’m “attacking” anyone. Although some of the questions are more personal then the ones I’m asking, in the spirit of friendship I will answer them.

Thank you :)

Are you in school? If yes, what are you studying? I am in college, I hope to major in constitutional law. Do you have a job/career? What type of work do you do?

I have a part-time job working at a real estate office, but most of my income comes from my online store I own with my younger brother. What are some of your interests? Politics and religion.

Thanks for sharing these personal details. It helps me better see you as an individual. Now below let me comment and respond to some of your questions in my words. With knowledge and testimony that I have buried inside of me or have had buried inside of me.

What are truths that you hold dear? My beliefs in the Free Market, Liberty, and Christianity.

I would be interested in knowing more specifically what those beliefs are if you would care to share. It helps me understand our differences and be more respectful of them. Point out things of the LDS faith that may be of interest to you. If there is one thing I've discovered is that people are more alike then unalike and despite differences of opinion can get along well. I think this site demonstrates that well. I will never push you to belief anything but I will "give you a reason for the hope that is within me."

How do you know them to be true? Research, lots of research and debate. And I don't "know" them to be true. but I am 97% sure.

Research can be good. I've defineately have done my share. I could probably with the knowledge that I have present most of the good reasons why and why not to become LDS. But there's something different from believing something and living it. I believe that ultimately truth is based on faith. Faith is based on things that are true and one would assume research would proof it beyond a doubt. Research can back up things but in and of itself is inconclusive. It is based on things unseen. Things change each day. Look in the last week we lost a planet Sorry had to pause for momentary laugh at my other post. We don't have all the knowledge. Many times I don't think we are ready for them. We defineately get them line upon line. I believe this is in part so we will continually seek the answers from God. As sometimes a little child asks questions that seem very easy to answer. But as adults trying to answer them sometimes have a hard time sometimes breaking them down to a level that a child can understand and not be more confused. This does not mean it is any less truthful. You may find that here. We have to get down and pray about things , cleanse ourself from all the junk holding us back, and renew a right spirit within us. So we can hear and respond to the Lord calling us.

The disciples heard the Lord say Come follow me. They didn't have a whole body of evidence there to support this Man JesuS and what He was teaching. Yet something beckoned them to come. Many people thought that Jesus was crazy. Others attacked Jesus because of what he taught. Yet they proceeded to follow Christ. Throughout the NT you can see them making mistakes and confused as ever at times. They defineately did not know all the answers. This Man did not even make sense to them at times. After He died they scattered. But when the Lord came back they heard His voice and once again returned to be with him. In the end they never forsook the gospel (all except for Judas). Most even died for the gospel.

Some important truths I feel important to remember in your quest for truth.

It is a life long process.

There are many things that cannot be understood or proved at this time in the same way as other scientific proofs may be. The focus with religion is more of the heart then the brain. (not to say you have to shut down the brain completely). For the Wisdom of God is foolish to man. That's a verse I like in the NT.

You may be called or drawn to a place. At the bottom you shared that you felt drawn to this LDS who was struggling. It motivated you to seek answers. To try and learn more. Maybe this drawing is in actuality your calling to a place the Lord wants you to be. When I started out I was not looking. I was already part of a faith. But something drew me to the LDS. Good or bad thats up for you to decide.

Learning will happen line upon line. As I've been a member of the church for some time, I've come to learn answers in deeper levels. Things I have sometimes had to put on hold all of sudden take on a level of deeper understanding. I can see things that probably would be hard to explain to someone outside of the LDS understandings and who has never experienced the basic steps nor have a basic respect and understanding of the LDS faith. As you step forward there is nothing extraordinarily new. But the understandings grow. Just like many of the educational concepts are repeated over the different school years. The understandings defineately change from kindergarten to college.

What goals are you striving for in this life? I wish I knew for sure…lol I would like to work for a conservative Think tank like CATO or maybe the ACLJYou stated that you were christian.

what attributes do you believe each Christian must have? They must believe the Jesus is the Messiah, and that they are saved by grace through faith

Amen.

I understand that these words do not mean the same thing to Mormons, I am not saying that if you say a little pray you are “saved” and can do whatever you want, but, you can’t be saved by “good works”

From all my experience in I guess you might call traditional christianity and LDS I think we are more alike then it might seem. While traditional christians say that you need to have faith and christ and make a decision to follow Christ there are also many wonderful things that these faiths do and teach. They do push you to deepen your relationship and mature in the gospel and your relationship with Christ. They get you to the party and leave you on your own so to say. But theres no guarantee you're not going to have a lot of people wandering around. Will they know anyone at the party...? The LDS on the other hand believe that we have faith, turn to the Lord and repent of our sins. Then we are baptized where are sins are washed away. An outward sign and as Christ said necessary to fulfill all righteousness. Then we are given the gift of the Holy Ghost. It focuses on the works. For faith without works is dead. Our works help to show our sincerity and faith. There is as you know a danger in this because it can build up a false sense of pride.

But by doing certain things we can also come to understand Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ better. For example its more difficult to understand your parents but when you become one yourself. Its easier to understand why your parents did what they did. Its exciting to know that we can learn more each day. Have molded into our lives those things that will help us learn to love God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Ghost and the gospel principles. Many of the things taught and expected are for the temporal and eternal benefit. We are still given the promises of Gods grace to carry on to the next step. For its by grace ye are saved after all that you can do. God has commanded us to be perfect. To cleanse out our lifes. Sins stand in the way of Heavenly Fathers presence. Think how you feel when you do something bad. A sick feeling enters in. We don't want to turn to God at that moment in time. We feel a separation. The LDS church encourages us to throw those sins away continually. Not just at the decision time. We do this so we can know and understand God better and not have anything standing in our way.

We are told in scriptures that the way would be narrow. Not everyone who cries Lord Lord will enter into his kingdom. There are many who claim they are saved but their works certainly aren't a reflection. Salvation is an individual thing. We are encouraged to do all that we can do. These things to the LDS reflects that more is expected than a decision time and we must always be striving towards it.

What do you think would fit the definition of a non christian or antichrist?

Someone who does not share the beliefs of a Christian would be a “non-christian” as for an antichrist, I don’t know. I just want to be clear here about something, I don't know if mormons are christian or not, we use the same words but they seem to have different meanings...I leave that to you.

My personal search in the Bible, the one reliable source of christians, when I was in "traditional Christianity" seeking whether the LDS church was from Satan or God I found that these main points were clearly pointed out to me and often times repeated. Especially in the NT

-Denies the Christ

-Puts in a mediator between you and God

-Teaches not to marry

-Abstain from meat

-"Pure Religion is this...." can't remember the whole verse (and I promised to do this from my memory so I won't cheat) but it says something to the effect of helping the fatherless and widow. If memory serves right. So boiled down with other verses will be helpful and building in the long run.

-Will demonstate or encourage the fruits of the Holy Ghost in your life. Things of the flesh will encourage the works of Satan.

I'm certain there were others that stood out at the time. But these are the main things that stand out in my mind at the moment. Scarily so I found myself questioning the belief system I had held onto for so long. I could think of one church that could fit into most of these categories. That being the Catholic Church which most other Christian Churches derived from including the denomination that I was a part of. While the creeds recited still say believe in the Holy Catholic Church I guess it means something the spirit of Christianity so to say. But if that wineskin was bad then to me there needed to be a new one in my mind. There was no restoration ever there. That left me out seeking and the LDs church was a strong possibility with the beliefs and understandings I had gained. (please note I am not trying to condemn other faiths. I do belief there are many truths and some great, sincere people found in them. Although I may disagree with some of their doctrines or practices).

The gathering of the House of Israel is another important part of the Bible. But not necessarily an indicator of the antichrist spirit. No other Christian church really emphasizes that as strongly as the LDS from what I've found. It is not a concept readily discussed in the Christian faiths. Although I understand what the beliefs would be having been a non LDS christian.

Another concept was the one of organization as I go into more detail on in another part of the post. I believe this was an important concept to the Christian concepts.

[

quote]What church or denomination do you affiliate yourself with currently?

I don’t really have a church or denomination at the moment. Although I do read the Bible and listen to tapes and study.

Is church necessary in your beliefs? If so what would your "ideal" church contain?

No, church is not necessary, although it is good. My ideal church would share all my beliefs.

That's great that your reading the Bible and listening to positive tapes I hope. As far as not attending church I do believe it is important to gather together with other believers. Each one of us has been given special gifts and talents. Some 1 some 10. We should be developing them and continually growing. Also sharing them with others. I believe the church can be an added protection to us in our christian walk. Hopefully we will be learning or sharing positive things with others that will help everyone reach their goals, dreams and true individual path in life. I believe in Ecclesiastes it talks of how easy it is to break one stick but harder to break a number. We need strength and encouragement. sometimes redirections.

I truly don't believe that we will ever find an ideal church here on this earth. Christs disciples couldn't even get it together and grieved Christ often. There's too much humanity involved in church. Too many things that we will never understand. So many questions with unprovable answers in the way that humans are used to get them. Have you ever read the Screw Tape Letters by C.S. Lewis? Maybe read the book by Phillip Yancey about church why go or something like that. I can't remember the name. It is written from a christian perspective and may give you some insight about why to go somewhere.

Organization and structure is important to Christ. When He was on the earth He appointed the apostles, the 70.. etc.. If the need for organization ended why did Christ go through all this effort? When Judas died he was promptly replaced with another one of the 12. We also see the organization still was effect in the time of Paul (Ephesians). So there is an organizational structure that is important.

Why are you drawn to look at mormonism? Many people have asked me "Why Mormonism?" or "What do you have against us?"I do not have anything against anyone. Let me tell you how I started researching Mormonism...It was a dark and stormy night.....(actually It was a very nice night, but I'm going to take some poetic license here) I was online surfing, bored. again. As I was looking for something, anything, to do I came across a question posted on Yahoo Answers by a young Mormon. She asked if anyone had any questions about Mormonism? Now I have never really looked into any other religions other than Christianity, I really had no idea what Mormonism was about. I had the idea that they were not "christian" but I didn't know why. So out of a combination of bordom and couriosity and answered the question. "What is the difference between Mormonism and Christianity?" She replied promply and told me about "The Book of Mormon" I was intrigued. After disscussing Mormonism for a couple of weeks, and reseaching both the Pro and Anti Mormon sites, I found 6 questions that she could not answer to my satisfactioin, neither could any other the Pro-Mormon sites such as Jefflinsay (my favorite) or FAIR, etc...So because I love debating and plus this was a very interesting subject. I started asking these questions on Yahoo Answers in hope of different answers. However the responses I got either told me that (1) It is a matter of Faith alone. or (2) same common flawed (in my opinion) answers. or (3) my questions were not referenced and if I was going to "attack" mormons I needed to list my souces. #1 and #2 were not that helpful, but #3 was vaild, so I bulid a website listing my questions. www.allaboutjoshua.com (soon to be www.thequestfortruth.org)I have spent a great deal of time and money to reseach Mormonism, I have bought books, DVD's, and asked lots of questions to get LDS perspective. I am very thankful to that girl because not only have I researched Mormonism, but I also spent a lot of time/money to research my own faith to see if it meets the standards I set for mormonism. I am pleased to say that it does.

Keep digging and drawing closer to God. Maybe this is for the path and maybe not. Hopefully it will draw you closer to the truth it can also draw you away. I stumbled on Jeff Lindsays webite by accident once. I love it too!

I don't need to visit an anti mormon site to know what it is like.

I like that 90% of what they say is pure lies, and the 10% is taking information and assuming something totally different because of it.

One thing I think you will find as you address the complex questions amd seek answers from different places is that that quote is pretty on. I might change it or add other wording too. Most is ridiculous when you start understanding basic Mormon concepts. It is also very imflammatory and demeaning. They are presented in a very antagonistic one sided way.

I wish you were more into learning then debating. I believe as the scriptures say "seek first to obtain my word." Before you start debating anything mormon please try to understand why people are LDS. Weigh it out in your mind. Maybe go to an LDS church. Help out on a service project. Don't just look at 2 deminsional responses. Try and live it. Research and provable points are one thing but as you have found in your own christian faith sometimes everything can't be proven in the normal way.

I dislike that it appears to be based on lies. (no offense, I could be wrong)

Continue to learn more. Than decide.

I like the strong moral character of mormons, I wish Christians had the same high standards

Agreed.

Hope that helps.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. Sorry I got a little wordy in my response. I just tried to word it as understandably as possible.

If you have any more questions I would be happy to answer them.

Same here. Just understand that sometimes you may not get the answers you seek instantanously. We are called to labor diligently. Keep digging and seeking. By doing so you will get the understandings needed to be able to comprehend the answers. Keep learning before you assume anything.

Peace be with you

Rosie.

[mdb]

I believe Jesus taught that we are only to teach his gospel and not other's gospel. So if someone claims to be a follower of Jesus but teaches about other faiths - they are really not followers of Jesus.

The Traveler

You do well to say that Jesus taught we are to preach His gospel and no other. The Scriptures say, "but even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed." ~Gal 1:8

Being a Mormon, you would say that the gospel consists of the laws and the ordinances of the Mormon church, yet the word of God says that the gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ for our sins.

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: ~1Cor 15:1-4

So which gospel do you preach: the gospel of Jesus Christ or that of the LDS?

[rosie321]

The Scriptures say, "but even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed." ~Gal 1:8

The question everyone has to try and figure out for themselves is what was the origional gospel? What will draw you as an individual closer to Christ and the gospel that he lived and died for. There are many views on that as displayed on these boards.

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: ~1Cor 15:1-4

So which gospel do you preach: the gospel of Jesus Christ or that of the LDS?

Also another matter of subjection to some degree. I agree the death, resurrection are the basis of the faith. With the death and resurrection brought hope to all of us. We can come to Christ. Works does not eliminate the need of the atonement but can actually make one appreciate it more. As you endure to the end and do different things you actually understand the power of what exactly Christ did to a deeper level. It's easier to "know" God the Eternal Father and His Son Jesus Christ. It is valued all the more.

The weekly sacrament is a reminder of the sacrifice of Christ and our baptismal covenants. Baptism in itself is in similtude of Christs burial and resurrection. So I don't really think some of the basic concepts are as different as you might think or the heart of what we believe is as different as you might think. To me your quote shows me we are teaching the same gospel but maybe in different manners. No different than the different christian denominations. :)

[JoshuaFKon]

Hello Rosie,

Thank you for your post, I know you put a lot of thought into it.

However, now that I’ve told you about myself, I would like to get back to my questions.

But first, let me say one thing. As I talk with Mormons I hear one thing again and again, "some things are just about faith, some things you just can't prove" That sounds very nice, very "spiritual" but it's misleading. Some things are false, and some things are true.

I could start a religion that says the Teletubbies are 'gods'. "Why?" you might ask? "Religion is just a matter of faith" I could say, "some things you just can't prove, but let my give you my testimony that it’s true. I KNOW it." You could point out that the teletubbies are just people in costumes, "It has a deeper meaning" I would say "You got that information from an anti-teletubbie site didn't you? Why would you do that? I you really were smart you would only ask me or people who agree with me!" Even if I was right and The Teletubbies are gods…with that logic am I leaving any room for the possibility that I’m wrong?

Faith is good, but you need a reason for your faith. I'll say it again. You need a reason for your faith.

In my search for answers to these questions I have been called an "anti-Mormon bigot" I have been basically told I am working for the devil, of the 1700+ veiws to this post about 4 people have attempted to answer my questions. I have answered personal questions in an effort to prove I'm on the level. People have criticized my spelling, questioned my motives, and called me close minded.

I have made every effort to try and understand. I have been as nice as possible. And while most of you were very kind, some weren’t.

If your answer to my questions is: "there is no answer, is it all faith" then please rest assured I've been told that.

If however you would like to answer my questions I would appreciate it.

I am going to take Ray's advice and go through one question at a time.

I will no longer defend my motives, my faith, or anything but my facts and my logic.

Question #1

The Book of Abraham

In 1966 the original papyrus from which the Book of Abraham was translated was re-discovered. The Mormon faith could now be put to the test, (assuming and angel didn't come and take them away)

Eventually the scrolls were sent to numerous independent professional Egyptologist for translation.

What did they say? Was this in fact a record of Abraham? Or as critics had said for years, a copy of the Book of the Dead.

The short answer. It was the Book of the Dead and the Book of Breathings. Common Egyptian texts written hundreds of years after Abraham had died.

Please look at a copy of facsimile No.1

This is from the re-discovered papyrus.

Now look at what Egyptologists say it should look like.

Now a look at Facsimile No. 1 from the Book of Abraham.

Notice where it differs from what Egyptologists say it should look like?

Strange huh?

What was the Mormon response? Was the book removed from the cannon? No.

My question is Why not?

Thanks in advance for your help,

God bless,

Josh

[Ray]

Hi Desire,

I'd have to take that as a fable. The line about ,"It has to be a restored church" is not consistent with what would be expected in an encounter like that described. Apart from the LDS church, I know of no other group that claims a need for restoration.

Just my two cents. Sorry,

Dr. T

A little known fact... sorry I don't remember all the details.

I once saw a program where the speaker was speaking about the subject of translating the Holy Bible, and he showed one of the pages from the first prints of the KJV translation to show that they expected a restoration... on one of the pages the page was summarized by a statement near the top of the page which stated that the scriptures on that page were about how the church would be restored in the latter days.

And as I said, I don't remember exactly, but I think you can find it, if you look. :)

[Princess3dward]

Hi desire

That's actually a faith-promoting rumor. Variants of that story have been told by many people and different churches for decades.

Sorry.

No. It happened to a friend of mine. Sorry, but I didn't lie.

Hi Desire,

I'd have to take that as a fable. The line about ,"It has to be a restored church" is not consistent with what would be expected in an encounter like that described. Apart from the LDS church, I know of no other group that claims a need for restoration.

Just my two cents. Sorry,

Dr. T

Ya, I know. That is why missionaries would be excited?

Also, the bible DOES talk about a restored church, so why could a bible scholar not know that?

And no other group claims the need because no other group has it.

[Ray]

I am going to take Ray's advice and go through one question at a time.

I will no longer defend my motives, my faith, or anything but my facts and my logic.

Question #1

The Book of Abraham

In 1966 the original papyrus from which the Book of Abraham was translated was re-discovered. The Mormon faith could now be put to the test, (assuming and angel didn't come and take them away)

Eventually the scrolls were sent to numerous independent professional Egyptologist for translation.

What did they say? Was this in fact a record of Abraham? Or as critics had said for years, a copy of the Book of the Dead.

The short answer. It was the Book of the Dead and the Book of Breathings. Common Egyptian texts written hundreds of years after Abraham had died.

Please look at a copy of facsimile No.1

This is from the re-discovered papyrus.

Now look at what Egyptologists say it should look like.

Now a look at Facsimile No. 1 from the Book of Abraham.

Notice where it differs from what Egyptologists say it should look like?

Strange huh?

What was the Mormon response? Was the book removed from the cannon? No.

My question is Why not?

Thanks in advance for your help,

God bless,

Josh

Hi Josh,

Thanks for being willing to try my first idea, about asking one very important question until you can get a true answer and learn everything you want to know about that topic before asking another question.

At this point I'll assume this is the question you want answered the most out of any and all other questions you could possibly ask about "Mormonism", and I'll now follow up with my second idea, concerning HOW you can know what is true and WHO you can rely on to teach you.

As for me, personally, I only rely upon God, but I also like to read some good books... or some books which I feel can point out the TRUTH, instead of what of AIN'T true, or ISN'T true.

Anyway, now that you've shown that you really want to investigate Abraham, or more specifically, the Book of Abraham, I will recommend that you pick up a good book by Hugh Nibley, an LDS scholar who died a little while ago, and see what he says about that. The book is called "Abraham in Egypt", and you can buy it at the BYU bookstore, which you can find online in a google search.

Or, if you prefer to save your money and not buy his book, you can also find some good information from him and some other good scholars at the FAIR website you've already found.

And btw, I'm NOT recommending that you believe what he says as if his words came from God.

I'm recommending this book because at least this way you'll hear from someone who was a good strong member of our Church, a member who many Presidents of the Church referred people to when they had an investigator who wanted a more "scholarly" approach than to simply refer them to God.

[prisonchaplain]

Maybe the following observation will help Desiree and others understand why some people are willing to dialogue about the LDS faith at places like LDStalk, but are no so excited about going to places like lds.org, mormon.com or even fairlds.org.

It's refreshing to get off-the-cuff reactions and opinions about God, doctrines, social issues etc. vs. canned official answers. The official sites (including my own ag.org) are often stuffy, almost legal sounding. They are so careful to be accurate, non-offensive, and cautious to the extreme. Apologetics sites (FAIR on the LDS side, equip.org etc. on the evangelical side) defend the Sacred Cows at all costs.

Here, we can just talk, be reasonable, and sometimes even hazard guesses. Sometimes, the answers we get, while not official, may be more reflective of what the everyday adherent believes.

If I want official answers that bare the weight of church authority and consensus I'll go to the official sites. For example, I'm going to teach a comparative faiths class in my Sunday School, and will likely start with LDS. For that lesson, I'll start at LDS.org, then move to fairlds.org, and finally, perhaps post the lesson here for comments.

I hope the above gives some insights.

[Princess3dward]

Maybe the following observation will help Desiree and others understand why some people are willing to dialogue about the LDS faith at places like LDStalk, but are no so excited about going to places like lds.org, mormon.com or even fairlds.org.

It's refreshing to get off-the-cuff reactions and opinions about God, doctrines, social issues etc. vs. canned official answers. The official sites (including my own ag.org) are often stuffy, almost legal sounding. They are so careful to be accurate, non-offensive, and cautious to the extreme. Apologetics sites (FAIR on the LDS side, equip.org etc. on the evangelical side) defend the Sacred Cows at all costs.

Here, we can just talk, be reasonable, and sometimes even hazard guesses. Sometimes, the answers we get, while not official, may be more reflective of what the everyday adherent believes.

If I want official answers that bare the weight of church authority and consensus I'll go to the official sites. For example, I'm going to teach a comparative faiths class in my Sunday School, and will likely start with LDS. For that lesson, I'll start at LDS.org, then move to fairlds.org, and finally, perhaps post the lesson here for comments.

I hope the above gives some insights.

Although I don't know why my name (although spelt wrong) was mentioned specifically,

yes, I am here to have serious descusions, and I was actually looking for a place that would give me a break from defending myself. ALTHOUGH I wanted a break, I realize a bigger testimony comes from when it is tested a little, and someone is inspired to put something down (like that black mormon site was super great in another thread). It builds up my testimony A LOT. Although there alot of skepticals out there, I feel totally safe, because of the few people here who are strong, and even a few nice Christians not part of the LDS church.

[JoshuaFKon]

Anyway, now that you've shown that you really want to investigate Abraham, or more specifically, the Book of Abraham, I will recommend that you pick up a good book by Hugh Nibley, an LDS scholar who died a little while ago, and see what he says about that. The book is called "Abraham in Egypt"

Hello Ray,

Thanks for the book title, I'll be sure to read it when I come back from vacation, Although I have not read "Abraham in Egypt" I am familier with his (Dr. Hugh Nibley) work, and several of his theories on the Book of Abraham, such and the "Hidden Meaning Theroy" "The Scribes Did It Theory" and the "Missing Black and Red Scroll" Theory. All of which I find to be lacking, and grasping at straws.

But I'll be sure to read the book. If I may suggest a book, I believe you should read "by his own hand upon papyrus" by Charles M. Larson

Thanks again,

Josh

[Princess3dward]

Although I have not read "Abraham in Egypt" I am familier with his (Dr. Hugh Nibley) work, and several of his theories on the Book of Abraham, such and the "Hidden Meaning Theroy" "The Scribes Did It Theory" and the "Missing Black and Red Scroll" Theory. All of which I find to be lacking, and grasping at straws.

Josh

Well,

I wont pretend to be familiar with any of that,

and it isn't mentoned to me, so it must not be crutial to salvation..

But I do know this,

Those theories may or may not be true,

but what is true, is that although he is a scholar,

he is still human, and is not perfect.

You are a christian, so you can pray before you read it to filter out anything that may not be accurate.

I hope that you look to the Spirit when you are researching!

Also, MOST IMPORTANTLY... James 1:5

" If any of ye lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."

[prisonchaplain]

Josh: My beliefs in the Free Market, Liberty, and Christianity.

If you are interested in how these mesh together, you may want to look up the Acton Institute on the web. The sponsor is Catholic, but it grapples with faith, liberty, and free markets in very intelligent ways. Also, as a student, you may be eligible for a free seminar. I went to one as a seminarian--great food, great ideas. There were Catholics, evangelicals, even a couple of students from BYU. I think you'd love it.

I wish I knew for sure…lol I would like to work for a conservative Think tank like CATO or maybe the ACLJ

CATO is actually Libertarian. ACLJ rocks!

Is church necessary in your beliefs? If so what would your "ideal" church contain?

No, church is not necessary, although it is good. My ideal church would share all my beliefs.

I was a bit shocked at first, but there is arising a movement within Christianity that contends the 'community of faith' is the church universal, but that local worship might be conducted in a house-based Bible study, a college group (such as Intervarsity Fellowship), etc. I don't agree. Christians need to learn to love their brothers/sisters in Christ--and that happens in community--in church.

Hi Desire,

I'd have to take that as a fable. The line about ,"It has to be a restored church" is not consistent with what would be expected in an encounter like that described. Apart from the LDS church, I know of no other group that claims a need for restoration.

Just my two cents. Sorry,

Dr. T

That story sounded very much like a recent string, in which even most of the LDS standards here concluded the OP was repeating a 'faith-promoting' fable.

On the other hand, while it's true that only the LDS claim the need for a restored church, most denominations that are post-Reformation are based on the supposed restoration of some lost truth. For example, my own movement claims that the 'gifts of the Spirit' were more or less lost over the centuries, and that through prayer and rediscovery of a truth, they have been restored.

[JoshuaFKon]

I wont pretend to be familiar with any of that,

and it isn't mentoned to me, so it must not be crutial to salvation..

Desiré,

Actually I would say the the validity of the Book of Abraham, and thus any theories or critizism of the Book of Abraham are "crutial" to you.

Because, as the late Apostle Bruce R. McConkie once said, the Book of Abraham:

“…contains priceless information about the gospel, pre-existence, the nature of Deity, the creation, and priesthood – information which is not otherwise available in any other revelation now extant."

So basically you're basing much of your doctrine, not on the Book of Mormon, but on the Book of Abraham.

I would suggest you reseach it. Don't just take my word on it, or anyone else's. Read "Abraham in Egypt" by Nibley and "By his own hand upon papyrus" by Charles Larson.

That goes for everyone.

Thanks,

Josh

prisonchaplain,

Thanks for the link to the Action Institute, I'll have to look into it...(I've never turned down free food yet)

CATO is actually Libertarian. ACLJ rocks!

Well, actually I am a Repubitarian, (the only one so far) 75% Libertarian and 25% Republican, but ACLJ does rock dosen't it?

Thanks again :)

Josh B)

[prisonchaplain]

Although I don't know why my name (although spelt wrong) was mentioned specifically,

yes, I am here to have serious descusions, and I was actually looking for a place that would give me a break from defending myself. ALTHOUGH I wanted a break, I realize a bigger testimony comes from when it is tested a little, and someone is inspired to put something down (like that black mormon site was super great in another thread). It builds up my testimony A LOT. Although there alot of skepticals out there, I feel totally safe, because of the few people here who are strong, and even a few nice Christians not part of the LDS church.

Desire, at some point you asked Josh why he would go to Anti-Mormon sites and only then come to LDS ones. Perhaps there was some fear of trolling. At the same time, your exchange raised in my mind the larger question many LDS ask and wonder: Why do non-LDS come here? What are they trying to do? If they really want to learn about us, they should go to the official sites, shouldn't they? Etc.

So, I tried to answer those larger questions. Occasionally, when developing such a post, it helps to 'piggy-back' on an exchange such as the one between you and Joshua. Maybe this time the connection was not so clear. Mea culpa.

Oh...and sorry for the mispell.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Taking in all the posts so far in a panorama of intent, it seems to me that Joshua is here to educate Mormons as to why we're wrong. Or as he stated elsewhere, why our religion is based on lies. You're wasting your time Joshua. That's not what this site is for. You know the answers to all the questions you ask, you know the Mormon response to the critiques, yet you still poke and prod. What more do you want?

What would you think of someone who sits in one spot all day turning a coin over and over, looking for a "third side" when there are only two? You know the anti position, you know the LDS position...that's about all there is. Active campaigning against the LDS Church is not what this site is about. If any of the other mods feel differently, feel free to say so.

This whole thread just seems to keep evolving more and more into Joshua's golden opportunity to throw darts at the silly Mormons. There's a big difference between the intent of Joshua's posts, and those of say, PrisonChaplain and Dr. T. Anyone else tired of this thread?

[JoshuaFKon]

Dear ApostleKnight:

I resectfully submit that you are wrong, I am not here to "educate Mormons as to why we're wrong"

I have questions about Mormonism, I am skeptical yes, but not close minded.

All I want is disscussion on my questions.

thank you

Josh

P.S. you're taking the "based on lies." comment out of context I believe.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

The problem is they're not questions.

A question implies that you aren't sure of something. Your comments make it clear that you are sure the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is built on lies and its scriptures/doctrines are false.

So again, my friend, you don't have questions. You have assertions cloaked in the guise of questions. Assertions which bear no trace of uncertainty.

I know I'm not the only one who gets really get tired of touching upon the same things again and again. Especially when you've already done your homework by visiting lds.ord, Jeff Lindsay's site, FAIR, etc...

You nurture the conviction that Mormons are misled and wrong in their beliefs. Fine. That's your right to believe. I get irritated when people come here and start trying to disprove and refute LDS sacred texts, doctrines, etc...

I'm more than happy to discuss those things, but you strike me as talking while plugging your ears. No matter what any of us say, you have your shotgun locked, cocked and ready to shoot down any and all responses. Now where's the point in that?

[Dr T]

Hello all,

Desire, you said,

Ya, I know. That is why missionaries would be excited?

Also, the bible DOES talk about a restored church, so why could a bible scholar not know that?

And no other group claims the need because no other group has it.

I have no idea what you are implying in those sentences. Like you first line, "missionaries would be excited?" What?

When you say "the bible DOES talk about a restored church" can you show me please?

Your last line, no other group has it? Has what-a restoration? If there is a need that is not being addressed in you posts about why no one else is talking about it.

AK,

I loved the two sided coin looking for a third! Thank you for that.

Joshua K,

you are not being consistent when you say

I resectfully submit that you are wrong, I am not here to "educate Mormons as to why we're wrong"

AK is LDS and you are telling him that he is wrong therefore contradicting your premise that says you are not here to tell them they are wrong... Sorry, just had to poke a little fun. I need a stress reliever and that’s how I do it sometimes.

Dr. T

[JoshuaFKon]

The problem is they're not questions.

Respectfully, yes they are. I give a statement which I believe, I point out that I could be wrong, and then I ask for other's opinions.

I know I'm not the only one who gets really get tired of touching upon the same things again and again. Especially when you've already done your homework by visiting lds.ord, Jeff Lindsay's site, FAIR, etc...

Resptfully sir, I am not forcing anyone to read my questions. And what's wrong with doing research first? I could understand if you didn't like that I made statments when I don't know what I'm talking about. But I did research it as best I could before comming here.

I'm more than happy to discuss those things, but you strike me as talking while plugging your ears.

I don't really know what to say to that, I am open minded, how can I prove this to you?

I have tried to be as polite as possible when asking my questions, I don't believe I have broken any of the rules of the site. I don't understand why you wish to close my thread?

I will apologize again if I have offended anyone, please forgive me.

Thanks

Josh

[JoshuaFKon]

AK is LDS and you are telling him that he is wrong therefore contradicting your premise that says you are not here to tell them they are wrong... Sorry, just had to poke a little fun. I need a stress reliever and that’s how I do it sometimes.

LOL,

Thanks Dr. T, you make a good point.

thanks,

Josh

[Jason]

No. It happened to a friend of mine. Sorry, but I didn't lie.

That's fine, but would you be so kind as to point out to me which Bible passage prophecies of a restoration? Im afraid Im not aware of that one.

On the other hand, there is a mention or two about a "remnant" that would be god's faithful. Perhaps your friend confused the two?

Of course, Im not trying to dissuade you from your beliefs, Im just trying to be practical and consistent.

:)

[LionHeart]

Hello JoshuaK. You said in a previous post that you found the book of Abraham interesting. Do you mind if I ask what it was about it that you were interested in? Also, you have presented this literature that provides evidence against the book of Abraham and asked us what we think about it, but I would like to know what you think about it.

Thanks.

<div class='quotemain'>

No. It happened to a friend of mine. Sorry, but I didn't lie.

That's fine, but would you be so kind as to point out to me which Bible passage prophecies of a restoration? Im afraid Im not aware of that one.

On the other hand, there is a mention or two about a "remnant" that would be god's faithful. Perhaps your friend confused the two?

Of course, Im not trying to dissuade you from your beliefs, Im just trying to be practical and consistent.

:)

Hello Jason. Would you be able to tell me where the Bible talks about this "remnant"?

Thanks.